Woerth to Head the FAA?

[ualdriver]

Spot on, Joe. If you watch the different trade unions (plumbers, pipefitters, carpenters, etc) you see their advertisements or hear their radio ads talking about their experience. Not once does ALPA make any type of advertisement (outside the rag, Air Line Pilot) to talk about the experience or trials and tribulations of their membership.

ALPA will look at MPL as just another vehicle in which to gain a dues paying member.

stlflyguy

You illustrate another "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation that ALPA finds itself in.

You seem to suggest that ALPA should spend dues money trying to explain to the public about the "trials and tribulations" of our membership. ALPA, in the past, has advertised points concerning our profession. In fact, there was an ad put up in the ORD terminal a while back. And do you know what many ALPA members had to say about that expenditure on various forums that I frequent? Can I paraphrase?

"Those ALPA guys, wasting all my money on advertising. Why do they waste their time trying to explain our profession to the public who could care less about us." "Gee, I wonder how much money that ad cost....." "Another example of ALPA wasting our dues money......."

So how does ALPA "win?" They advertise, some guys complain it's a waste of dues money. They don't advertise, and guys like you say we should be more like the trade unions and tell the world all about how tough our profession is.

Ah, forget it. I'm just an ALPA apologist anyway.

 

[ualdriver]

UAL,

This is precisely why ALPA is a failure....The AMA and ABA have done a good job keeping the barriers to entry high....We have failed....

Joe, you calling ALPA a failure and using the AMA and the ABA as an example of organizations that "keep the barriers high." I've heard these example quoted before but never really looked into the what control the AMA and the ABA have over doctors and lawyers.

So I did the unthinkable, Joe. I did a little research. I went to a forum that is frequented by physicians and lawyers and asked them about the AMA and the ABA and its "control" over its membership. You might find what a few guys had to say interesting.

All that answered (2 docs, 3 laywers) agreed that neither the AMA nor the ABA control how many doctors or lawyers come into their respective professions. Neither organization creates any barriers to those choosing to enter either profession. In fact, you can be a practicing doctor or lawyer and NEVER be a member of either organization. There are no professional repercussions if you choose not to be a member of either organization. One lawyer commented that the goverment (i.e. state legislation) controls who and who cannot practice law and how they can go about practicing law in a given state, not the ABA. One physician commented that the AMA has become less important in recent years, not more important. Another physician commented that the AAMCAS, if anyone, had control over who entered the medical profession, but even then they really didn't control it and as an organization it was bypassed.

You're taking ALPA's perceived failures and comparing them to a standard at other professional organizations that simply doesn't exist. So you can stop saying that ALPA is a failure because the AMA and the ABA control the supply and experience requirements of its membership and ALPA can't. Neither the ABA or the AMA do, nor could they if they wanted to. I suspect in a free market that any organization could not easily instate those kinds of controls, INCLUDING ALPA.

I have heard the argument you have made from many ALPA apologists...My question is why have other professions done a better job of keeping the entry requirements high.....They aren't even unions.....

First, I'm not an apologist. I'm just a guy who understands (or at least tries to understand) what ALPA can and cannot do and try to point out when members have unrealistic expectations of ALPA. As I have said repeatedly, I really don't care if ALPA represents us all or not. If something better comes along, I'm all for it. Right now, I'm taking a look around the industry and not seeing anything better than ALPA.

Second, now that we have elimated the "oft repeated" ABA and AMA examples, what other professions should ALPA be using as an example of keeping the entry barrier levels high or risk being seen as inadequate in your eyes?

 

[JoeMerchant]

ualdriver,
Your information simply isn't correct. Both the AMA and the ABA set the licensing and education standards for their respective professions....You don't see them trying to start a "fast track" doctor or lawyer program...They understand how that harms the profession.....

Here is some information to refute what you posted....Take a look and then we can continue the debate..
http://www.mises.org/story/1252

 

[stlflyguy]

You illustrate another "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation that ALPA finds itself in.

You seem to suggest that ALPA should spend dues money trying to explain to the public about the "trials and tribulations" of our membership. ALPA, in the past, has advertised points concerning our profession. In fact, there was an ad put up in the ORD terminal a while back. And do you know what many ALPA members had to say about that expenditure on various forums that I frequent? Can I paraphrase?

"Those ALPA guys, wasting all my money on advertising. Why do they waste their time trying to explain our profession to the public who could care less about us." "Gee, I wonder how much money that ad cost....." "Another example of ALPA wasting our dues money......."

So how does ALPA "win?" They advertise, some guys complain it's a waste of dues money. They don't advertise, and guys like you say we should be more like the trade unions and tell the world all about how tough our profession is.

Ah, forget it. I'm just an ALPA apologist anyway.

You don't have to apologize for being an apologist. In the airline industry, we're all apologists. "Sorry, we're late..." "Sorry for the bumps..." "Sorry, we're not quite at our gate yet..." "Sorry, they said it'd be just a few more bags/passengers/minutes.." "Sorry, I can't find you a seat." "Sorry, you're just going to have to grieve it."

I'd rather have the expenditures being seen than not. At least as a dues paying member, I could actually SEE where my money is going. It's when I don't see where the funds are going that I start to wonder just what it's being used for.

I think every ALPA member should get a copy of the Union's Statement of Germane and Non-Germane Expenses so that they can see--at least to some degree--where their money goes. Couple that to the annual LM-2 and you might be at the doorstep of disclosing what really happens to the funding.

stlflyguy

 

[ualdriver]

ualdriver,
Your information simply isn't correct. Both the AMA and the ABA set the licensing and education standards for their respective professions....You don't see them trying to start a "fast track" doctor or lawyer program...They understand how that harms the profession.....

Here is some information to refute what you posted....Take a look and then we can continue the debate..
http://www.mises.org/story/1252

I'll have to admit it was an interesting article. But no Joe, I'm pretty confident that my information is correct as I typed it. The AMA and the ABA DO NOT set licensing and education standards. They may influence those standards through lobbing, participation in legislation, etc. (just as ALPA does), but they do not set those standards. In fact, from your own article:

"......and can be seen in the behavior of such organizations as the American Medical Association, the American Bar Association, and others. Very often, such bodies lobby the government to institute stiff requirements in order to acquire a license to practice............medical, legal, or other services......"

Also, as I stated in my post, neither of those organizations control the ability of anyone to become a doctor or lawyer. If you want to do it and you have the brains, you can do it. You don't have to ask the AMA or the ABA for permission or approval. They don't restrict entry into the profession as I stated.

And I'd argue that this profession already has stiff requirements.....finacial ones.....yet still there is no shortage of guys wanting to be pilots. What should ALPA do about that to "protect the guild?"

You mention in a previous post that the ABA and the AMA "do a good job of keeping the barriers to entry high." What should ALPA do to throw some obstacles up? Maybe make it harder for an older, overweight, out of shape guy to maintain a First Class Medical? That will weed a lot of guys out under the guise of "safety" for our newly formed cartel. Should we make the cost of obtaining one's certificates even more than 10's of thousands of dollars it costs already?

But getting back to the point of this thread, maybe ALPA should lobby for changes in the RLA (could happen)? Changes in FAA rest requirements (could happen)? Changes in min required hours for RJ right seaters (good luck!)? Do you think an ex-airline pilot unionist like Woerth might help us with some of those issues? Or perhaps you think some lawyer using the FAA Admistrator's office as a stepping stone to bigger and better things would better serve us?

 

[PBRstreetgang]

I can't believe, ALPA, who is all about safety. Thinks it's a smart idea to put a no time guy in the right seat, allowing him to do the job that some guys with 1,000's of hours, have trouble doing.
I'd hate to be the captain, flying a 4 day trip on the East Coast, shooting CAT II approaches with one of these guys in the right seat.

I'm assuming that these guys would fly with a certified Captain, such as an IOE captain. I hope to God.

Actually, I fly regularly with seat warmer types, they do just fine in the CAT II scenario, and other highly structured scenarios, its the "cleared for the visual 15 miles out on the downwind or base leg, that turns into the "monkey and the football" comedy. High, fast and a complete lack of airmanship display. They do just fine when inside the box, outside the box is where the meltdown occurs! I was flying with a F/O who had never heard of Aerodynamics for Naval Aviators, do the math.
PBR
P.S. I flew in Feb with a high mins kid out of ord, due to crosswind and visibility flew all 5 legs that day, he did do a good job with the gear and radios though.

 

[knowlimits]

Woerth...

Further proof that all you need to advance in this profession in a really bitchin' moustache.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Actually, I fly regularly with seat warmer types, they do just fine in the CAT II scenario, and other highly structured scenarios, its the "cleared for the visual 15 miles out on the downwind or base leg, that turns into the "monkey and the football" comedy. High, fast and a complete lack of airmanship display. They do just fine when inside the box, outside the box is where the meltdown occurs! I was flying with a F/O who had never heard of Aerodynamics for Naval Aviators, do the math.
PBR
P.S. I flew in Feb with a high mins kid out of ord, due to crosswind and visibility flew all 5 legs that day, he did do a good job with the gear and radios though.

Sounds like a good opportunity to show the guy how to fly a visual PBR style!

Worst case is he flies with another Capt and screws up the visual. This Capt asks who did you fly with last... and the reply... Capt PBR!

The FARs and the FOM state we will show these guys how to be professional airmen! What is the alternative?



UALDriver-

Good posts... well thought out, fact finding info trumps what "feels good to type at the moment" anyday.


The difference with UALDriver is he takes ownership of his profession. The ALPA haters will always be that... like a pessimist they view it half empty even though the glass is half full....

It is just they way the haters roll..... doubt it will change...


ALPA has frustrated me many times, just like my gov't, but I am not ready to reject my US citizenship. Why? I don't see anything better out there....

 

[PCL_128]

Joey still has yet to show us this supposed resolution that shows ALPA supporting MPL. Where is it, Joey?

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Sounds like a good opportunity to show the guy how to fly a visual PBR style!

Worst case is he flies with another Capt and screws up the visual. This Capt asks who did you fly with last... and the reply... Capt PBR!

The FARs and the FOM state we will show these guys how to be professional airmen! What is the alternative?



UALDriver-

Good posts... well thought out, fact finding info trumps what "feels good to type at the moment" anyday.


The difference with UALDriver is he takes ownership of his profession. The ALPA haters will always be that... like a pessimist they view it half empty even though the glass is half full....

It is just they way the haters roll..... doubt it will change...


ALPA has frustrated me many times, just like my gov't, but I am not ready to reject my US citizenship. Why? I don't see anything better out there....

I am not sure who pi$$ed in your Wheaties. I assume that every pilot who sits in the right seat is a fully qualified and competent airman, until proven different. You on the other hand sound like the prik azz wipe Captain that every F/O has flown with at some point in their career. Micro managing needle dik who has forgotten what it's like to be an F/O. You are the very essence of the "How not to be a Captain cartoon"
PBR