DALPA Conflict of Interest

[FBN0223]

I do not see how 20 years from now trumps the "here and now." He should get no less than status quo.

Yeah let's forget the future and ALL of our career expectations and just live in the here and now.

 

[MCDU]

FBN0223. I am with you man. You and me and many others. We know where you are coming from. Delta and AWA should have merged.

Peace

M

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Funny, I did not know NWA was the only airline that practiced such nonsense. How do you do seniority at Delta? Last four of your SS# perhaps?

MCDU is a USair crybaby.

 

[PuffDriver]

There's our problem. In your mind, the solution revolves solely around you and keeping some sort of your fictional seniority contrived by unreasonable ideas. I understand how you don't want to be shoved in DC-9 or be a junior widebody FO but to make all of the planets align and your seniority dreams come true, you are willing to completely throw another group under the bus. Newsflash: It's not all about you.

Things for you to consider:
1) It's not just where you are NOW, but where you will be in on the seniority list in five, ten, or twenty years from now. In my case, I would be retiring in the top 4% of NWA pilots. I would be willing to sacrifice a few percentage points, but when you drop 1500 Delta guys in front of me who are junior, I'd be lucky to retire in the top 20%.
You, Sir, talk about career expectations. Mine were to retire a B747-400 Captain not a B767ER FO.

2) Hitting a home run on the SLI for either group is disastrous. Want to see a "happy" place go to a not so "happy" place. DALPA's proposal would accomplish that quite well.

3) We are retiring more pilots than you. Once again you get to move up the list on retirements that should have been solely ours. And once again you're welcome.

Strictly DOH may not be the best. I'll sacrifice 100 numbers or so, sort of throwing you guys a bone, but not 1500.

good luck

There is no fiction involved here. It is indeed reality.

1) If you are talking about timeframes of 20 years, then your career expectation is NOT retiring as a 747-400 captain. Drama, while dramatic, does not really serve useful discussion rationale and will be met with a whaaa, whhaaa. Whatever career expectation you had, it changed the day that the merger was announced. Nonetheless, the mediators will attempt to cushion that blow.

2) I actually believe that both groups hit a home run. We managed to find a way through a merger during THE single most tumultuous time in airline history. We WILL see airlines go out of business next year if not this year. One or more of them will be a legacy carrier. Many will be national airlines. We can place bets on these another time, but each pilot group have given themselves the best chance for survival via this merger.

As far as the seniority list goes, "home run" will be in the eye of the beholder. I have a feeling that nothing would considered a home run in the eyes of NWA pilots. Believe it or not, I can see the argument for DOH with the appropriate protections for Delta pilots. The likelihood of the arbitrators accepting DOH, even with protections, is nil IMO. The list will look similar to what the Delta pilots have proposed with probably some tweaking, if any. The real question is will NWA pilots accept the decision, or pull a coupe to burn the place down despite their face?

3) You retirements peak soon, ours later. You conveniently leave out that Delta pilots will be retiring as well. Surely you comprehend that you will be able to cash in on OUR retirements as well. When do we become 1 group for real, no crossies counted? My guess is sooner than later. Quite frankly, they nullify each other out over the course of the next few years, as the PAM model shows, and your extra compensation makes up for it.

My advice is brace yourself, you will probably sacrifice somewhere between 100 and 1500 numbers. If I were to guess, it will be in the neighborhood of 1300.

 

[Fly4hire]

The likelihood of the arbitrators accepting DOH, even with protections, is nil IMO. The list will look similar to what the Delta pilots have proposed with probably some tweaking, if any.

My advice is brace yourself, .

I suggest you might want to follow your own advice :bawling:

 

[FBN0223]

deleted

 

[FBN0223]

Never mind. We'll see in November.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

And with that the thread will die.

Fact is I agree with what he states. We are trying like h e double hockey sticks to get this merger done and finalized before one of our fellow majors goes T.U. All bets are off if we cannot.

So on to the next thing.
Are you guys ready to learn our convoluted way of flying airplanes?

 

[licorice]

There's our problem. In your mind, the solution revolves solely around you and keeping some sort of your fictional seniority contrived by unreasonable ideas.
Absolutely nothing fictional about it. Is it a contrived unreasonable idea that I can hold 767-400 capt. by STOVEPIPE, as a dec. 1985 hire? and am now a senior 767ER international capt.....is that fictional, my friend? Remarkably, I actually find myself in the cockpit of a 767-300ER each week, flying to Europe. Is it a dream? Is it a fiction that I have been doing this now for 3 years? Is it a pipe-dream that I could reasonably expect to continue to do so and might even advance further when Delta buys more 777s? Is it fictional that my equivalent date of hire at NW can only hold mid-seniority A-320 capt. via STOVEPIPE? Neither of those scenarios are fictional...they are reality,--cold, hard facts. As facts, they are indisputable, and therefor, neutral...those are, afterall, "just the facts"--they are my neutral expectations. Is it a neutral expectation on the part of your dec. 1985 hire to jump to a widebody international capt. position just because of a merger? No, I, and most reasonable people would consider that an unreasonable expectation....

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Well I might be wrong. Well isn't awesome.

 

[NuGuy]

I suggest you might want to follow your own advice :bawling:

Heyas F4H,

Agreed.

Additionally, I don't believe that one methodology will applied to the entire list. You can always find one point in the list and say "aha, see, it works", but the same method causes a wide disparity for one side or the other at multiple points

But there ARE solutions that can work to provide "equal blood", and I think we're heading in that direction.

Personally, DOH with a 5 year fence/no bump-no flush sounds pretty good to me. I'm positive that after the fence comes down, the demographics for each side would be remarkably similar. Even if you discount the fact that well over %50 of the NWA pilots retire at 60 AND that bulk of the remainder leaves at 62, our retirement wave will be pretty much over at that point, leaving a fairly matched group.

The checkmate in all this is two fold. First RA can simply say it costs too much, and reject the list. He knows first hand how much it costs to administrate a split list. You can bet he's throwing money at both sides to get a negotiated list (not $$ per se, but quids), not only for it's own sake, but for the downstream effects on other employee groups.

Second, any aircraft swaps during this period will CERTAINLY produce secondary arbitrations as to what is and what isn't a "replacement aircraft". That's the problem fences bring. Ask any red/green guy the amount of money, in assessments, it's cost them over the years, and it will make the assessmenets we're paying now look like chump change. If you DAL guys don't think this is a big deal, let me tell you, we've got Red guys who have experience and MULTIPLE successes in arbitrating what is a replacement aircraft. If I can point to a 330 and say "that's a DC-10 replacement" and make it stick, then a 717 for a DC-9 is a no-brainer.

Speaking of which, I'm fairly sure there will be no DCC until the SLI is completed, whether negotiated or arbitrated. This isn't because pilots are that important, BUT, the tone and result will set the stage for negotiations with multiple other employee groups. RA NEEDS to be able to point out to other groups and what's left of Wall Street and say "see, they did it".


Nu

 

[ACL65PILOT]

And it will be done, one way or another by Nov 20th. I am sure as the day is long that the arbitrators are aware of what the company will and will not accept. It would be foolish not to.
Do not bet on DOH with a five year fence. It may happen, but it would only win half of your argument.

 

[3ds]

How about both groups agree to a fence and then make mgt and the bankers buy the fence from the unified pilot group?

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Only if life was so easy. I think we sold our pound of flesh.

 

[michael707767]

Things for you to consider:
1) It's not just where you are NOW, but where you will be in on the seniority list in five, ten, or twenty years from now. In my case, I would be retiring in the top 4% of NWA pilots. I would be willing to sacrifice a few percentage points, but when you drop 1500 Delta guys in front of me who are junior, I'd be lucky to retire in the top 20%.
You, Sir, talk about career expectations. Mine were to retire a B747-400 Captain not a B767ER FO.

2) Hitting a home run on the SLI for either group is disastrous. Want to see a "happy" place go to a not so "happy" place. DALPA's proposal would accomplish that quite well.

3) We are retiring more pilots than you. Once again you get to move up the list on retirements that should have been solely ours. And once again you're welcome.

1 I have considered the long term implications. Thats why I think relative position is fair. If I was thinking short term, I would want more than that. For the record, my career expectation was to retire at number 73 on our list. Which would be in the top 1%. I don't think that should change, and a DOH list would change it dramatically.

2 I don't see our proposal as hitting a home run.

3 You are only retiring more than we are short term. Long term we have many more retirements.

 

[licorice]

Heyas F4H,

Personally, DOH with a 5 year fence/no bump-no flush sounds pretty good to me. I'm positive that after the fence comes down, the demographics for each side would be remarkably similar

Well, I'm glad that "personally" works out for you. The demographics under DOH and 5 years would be totally skewed in NW favor. Nu, consider this for a moment: Delta has 210 pilots that were hired in 1981 or before. That means #211 was hired in sept. 1985. The NW counterpart hired in sept. 1985 is #1217---that's over 1000 numbers JUNIOR on a seniority list that's 30% smaller than Delta's. The facts are these: #211 at DL is a very senior 767-400ER international capt., in staight seniority order. (stovepipe) His NW DOH counterpart #1217 is a mid-seniority domestic A-320 capt. (by stovepipe). Under DOH, #211 at DL would go to #1426!--that is, from 2.8% on the list to 11.3%, while his NW counterpart would go from 23.5% to that same 11.3%. A loss of 8.5% for one, a gain of 12.2% for the other. Way more skewed than anything Delta ever considered proposing. As for demographics, assuming DL's 210 1981 or prior hires are roughly equivalent to yours in terms of age, then in 5-7 years DL sept 85 hires would have expected to be at the very top of their list. Under DOH, they would be nowhere near the top. In 5 years they would have, at least, all the NW pilots (and ONLY NW pilots) hired between feb. 1981 and aug. 1985 in front of them (805 pilots, with similar demographics)--tell me about quashing a pilot group's expectations! The problem is, the "junior" delta pilots are already flying the 1100 widebody capt positions at DL (#1100 at DL a sept. 1987 hire) It is a fact, it is indisputable, it is not an "expectation". Expectations are different than present facts. Expectations, like predictions, are notoriously difficult--especially about the future.

Second, any aircraft swaps during this period will CERTAINLY produce secondary arbitrations as to what is and what isn't a "replacement aircraft". That's the problem fences bring. Ask any red/green guy the amount of money, in assessments, it's cost them over the years, and it will make the assessmenets we're paying now look like chump change. If you DAL guys don't think this is a big deal, let me tell you, we've got Red guys who have experience and MULTIPLE successes in arbitrating what is a replacement aircraft. If I can point to a 330 and say "that's a DC-10 replacement" and make it stick, then a 717 for a DC-9 is a no-brainer.

Well, I certainly would not dispute that 717s would be repacements for the -9, assuming they came on the property concurrent with a dc-9 draw-down, or within a reasonable amount of time after the 9s were gone. As for 777s, there are scores of orders, options, rolling options, etc. It would be difficult at best for NW to try to claim airplanes that DL already had on the order and option books. The A-330 replacing DC-10s was a no-brainer, -now whether ANY of the green book guys should have been allowed to fly it? --well you (red book) guys answered that.

 

[Noserider76]

What is DOH? It's strictly a means of determining relative seniority within your own company for bidding, non reving, etc. It has no bearing on your relative seniority on the list of a merged company. Many, many other issues must be taken into account unless the carriers happen to be an exact replica of each other.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Joe, that you do, but be careful. Lots of things are going to change in the RJ world in the next year or so.

And Joe, Egomaniacs? I sat with you in ground school a few times. That is the pot calling the kettle black. By virtue of what we do and who we are we are all guilty of that.

By "egomaniacs"....I'm referring to the "my plane is bigger/faster/better...therefor I am better.....By choice I've stayed on the ATR for almost 15 years....That isn't "ego" driven.....Nobody is impressed when you say you drive an ATR.....

We see it with RJ pilots.....and mainline pilots....But many of actually like the ATR and aren't "ego" driven.....

It was a huge mistake to tie pay to aircraft size.

The "changes in the RJ world" are being revised as we speak......Things are about to change for ALL of us with the economy. A severe recession/possible depression with 50 dollar oil will change things again....

 

[Scope out RJ's]

By "egomaniacs"....I'm referring to the "my plane is bigger/faster/better...therefor I am better.....By choice I've stayed on the ATR for almost 15 years....That isn't "ego" driven.....Nobody is impressed when you say you drive an ATR.....

No, that's driven by, "can't pass training!"
Hence your worthless lawsuit to sue to get something you can't!

We see it with RJ pilots.....and mainline pilots....But many of actually like the ATR and aren't "ego" driven.....

No, you're stuck because you can't get hired! Can't pass an interview, and struggle with training!

It was a huge mistake to tie pay to aircraft size.

The "changes in the RJ world" are being revised as we speak......Things are about to change for ALL of us with the economy. A severe recession/possible depression with 50 dollar oil will change things again....

Maybe another lawsuit in the works?
If at first you don't succeed, sue, sue again!
:laugh:

 

[Fly4hire]

Hey Puff, ACL, FDJ2 and others -

We can twist ourselves in a knot all day long with each others irrefutable "logic" about why the list has to go this way or that. Who are you trying to convince? Hence the original topic of this thread. Do you think the arbitrators are going to read FI and go "Oh yeah, thats it"?

I give you guys an A+ with a smiley face for being on talking points, but is just doesn't matter. You may as well be looking for 4 leaf clovers and be wishing on falling stars.

Next week we present our arguments, then you get a rebuttal, and it's decided unless we come up with something better on our own. What's being discussed here as fact will never be accepted as negotiated so we'll take our chances with the panel.