DAL/NWA SLI Hearings in a nutshell

[GogglesPisano]

I can hold a line on the ER in ATL, JFK and I think LAX. Can any 07 or 08 hire at NWA do that. Can an 01 hire do that? I am not sure. (I am not talking about SO positions)

:laugh:

 

[General Lee]

Oh, the slowing world economy only impacts NWA?

Your cargo operation is bleeding. Those planes are really really old. They will be gone soon.


How are those talks going over at Boeing? Regardless, your 787s are two years behind the planes we have coming. The first one hasn't flown yet. We will have those remaining 777s and 737-700s years before your 787s come.


I thought there was a no furlough clause, what happened to that?

We still have one, for TBKane and up. If they try to furlough him or anyone above, they have to get rid of 6 seats in every 76 seat RJ. Very expensive.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[michael707767]

Here's a hint - your proposed list, or an equivalently lopsided one to our favor would result in the operational implosion - think NWA Roberts/USAir acrimony several orders of magnitude. The arbitrators know this, as does RA, Moak and Prater.

actually, what happend at USAir can't happen here unless the Delta pilots get screwed. We have the numbers to out vote you. So there is no way you could try to muscle in NWAPA to get DOH. We also already have a joint contract.

Frankly, I don't think the DALPA position goes far enough.

 

[123]

That TBKane deal....I read it to say an employment date, therefore, they could in theory furlough out of seniority with the list as proposed. Is that the way you understand it to be?

 

[FmrFreightDog]

actually, what happend at USAir can't happen here unless the Delta pilots get screwed. We have the numbers to out vote you. So there is no way you could try to muscle in NWAPA to get DOH. We also already have a joint contract.

Frankly, I don't think the DALPA position goes far enough.

I love internet tough guy posturing. It amuses me to no end. You and Armando must get together on weekends, drink wine coolers, and think this stuff up. Bravo!

 

[Schwanker]

That TBKane deal....I read it to say an employment date, therefore, they could in theory furlough out of seniority with the list as proposed. Is that the way you understand it to be?

That date applied to an employment date on either the current DAL list or the current NWA list. Both sides are protected by this language if you were employed by said date.

Schwanker

 

[michael707767]

I love internet tough guy posturing. It amuses me to no end. You and Armando must get together on weekends, drink wine coolers, and think this stuff up. Bravo!

posturing? Not at all.

 

[BOHICAgain]

Is it fair to any DL pilots to lose their jobs (even temporarily) when they interviewed and were hired at an airline in expansion mode? Serious questions here. You can't just blend the lists and possibly furlough people who never signed up for that. Sorry.
Bye Bye--General Lee

YES it is fair.
Things change. Do you think it is fair that a 01 new hire at NWA to be below a 2007 new hire at DAL.

Im sure if things were backward and the 88 were on the chopping block you guys would be saying the same thing as the NWA guys. Every new hire hired in 2007 should be DOH after the rest of the list is sorted. So what if a guy is flying a 76 and someone else is flying a DC9.

 

[michael707767]

YES it is fair.
Things change. Do you think it is fair that a 01 new hire at NWA to be below a 2007 new hire at DAL.

you keep asking DOH questions? What does a persons hire date matter?

If you want to argue about someone at NWA who is on the DC-9 and has career expectations of X being behind a Delta pilot who is on the 767 but has a career expectation of Y, that is a valid arguement.

DOH doesn't matter. The number one Delta pilot is the number one Delta pilot, just as the number one NWA pilot is the number one NWA pilot. Doesn't matter when either one was hired.

 

[123]

And how long do you estimate this new hire in the 767 to make captain of the 767?

 

[tico]

Since the most junior captain position should pay more than the most senior fo position. And all the small twin jets......md-80 thru 90 series, dc-9 all series, 737 all series and airbus 318-321(dont know if that is all the airbus series) should pay the same. The 757 and like powered should pay the same. 767 and a-330 should pay the same and 777 and 747 should pay the same and then if there ever is a 787 it would fit in there somewhere.....all out mock rebid where the senior guys go to the high pay airplanes and so on all the way down to the lowest pay and least senior....then ratio that list.....do a five year fence and call it good........nah that is too easy

 

[BOHICAgain]

you keep asking DOH questions? What does a persons hire date matter?

If you want to argue about someone at NWA who is on the DC-9 and has career expectations of X being behind a Delta pilot who is on the 767 but has a career expectation of Y, that is a valid arguement.

DOH doesn't matter. The number one Delta pilot is the number one Delta pilot, just as the number one NWA pilot is the number one NWA pilot. Doesn't matter when either one was hired.

I just don't think that a 01 new hire that was furloughed and struggled to come back should be put behind a 2007. No disrespect to the DAL 2007 hire. I have a couple of buddies hired in 2007.

To say that this should be based on what the airline would look like if the merger does not go through is just pure bias. Neither pilot group should suffer the loss. I would hope that senior guys will leave and create a need for pilots

 

[wings421]

Do you think it is fair that a 01 new hire at NWA to be below a 2007 new hire at DAL.

I do. Looking at the numbers it seems that only 3.9% of the NWA list was hired 07-08 but 9.1% of the DAL list was hired in the same years.

Not saying its going to happen, but if I were a 01 NWA hire, I'd brace myself for the fact that I MIGHT be junior to a 07 DAL hire.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

ANd probably the 99 and 2000 hires as well. It is all about ratio base on equipment of similar carriers. To further clarify. USAir and Am West had different types of service and airplanes, not just number of those aircraft. (Top positions to US Air East). It is all about ratio base upon equiptment.

 

[ugasucks]

Noone is talking about the NWA 2001 hire going from 2 or 3 year pay to 8 or 9 yr pay when he comes over to the delta contract

 

[General Lee]

And how long do you estimate this new hire in the 767 to make captain of the 767?

We supposedly have a 1997 hire as a Captain on the 767 in LA. What is the largest plane a 1997 hire at NWA hold in the left seat? The DC9. There you go. And, they are slowly going away, along with 10 of your 757s that just went to Fedex, not the desert.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

I just don't think that a 01 new hire that was furloughed and struggled to come back should be put behind a 2007. No disrespect to the DAL 2007 hire. I have a couple of buddies hired in 2007.

To say that this should be based on what the airline would look like if the merger does not go through is just pure bias. Neither pilot group should suffer the loss. I would hope that senior guys will leave and create a need for pilots

How about a 17 year USAir Eastie getting put next to a 3 year guy at AWA? It happened. It's called not getting a windfall. If you are in the bottom 20% of one company, then you should be in the bottom 20% of a merged company. But, the USAir East guys also got the top 500 spots of the merged company because of "special circumstances"---like having an INTL operation, something AWA didn't have. Well, NWA has something DAL doesn't currently have----planes heading for the boneyard. The ANC ops is probably going away very quickly, and we all know that. Also, some of the DC9s are going away (not all, but some), and that has to be taken into account. It is not like the decision to park them is being made after the DCC, it has been made BEFORE the SLI and DCC. We all know about it. The ANC ops has about 350 pilots total, and the DC9 will be overstaffed after some are parked. Career expectations for those pilots includes a furlough, and hopefully that doesn't happen in the end, but unfortunately those guys will get the short end. I doubt though that they will be furloughed, but there is the possibility.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Noone is talking about the NWA 2001 hire going from 2 or 3 year pay to 8 or 9 yr pay when he comes over to the delta contract

Yes, all of those furloughed NWA guys will probably get that pay bump to include those furloughed years. That sounds like a good deal for them.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[recallsomeday]

Is your seniority for sale?

Yes, all of those furloughed NWA guys will probably get that pay bump to include those furloughed years. That sounds like a good deal for them.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Superpilot92]

That may be a compromise position, super. The only problem would be when the -9's/-200's actually leave, and furloughs were required, the bottom of the list would furlough out of seniority order. (DL pilots being protected by a fence, per your suggestion) This would draw out a lot of gnashing of teeth on the NW side, even, I suspect, if it had been agreed to in writing previously...maybe not. In any event, there is no furloughing for 24 mos. after DCC as a strict result of the merger...New can of worms...would NW have got rid of them as a stand alone? -yes, eventually, obviously. -Or will their demise only come as a result of the merger? The bottom line is IF, and much more likely WHEN, the NW -9's go away for whatever reason under the sun, are not replaced, and whether it would have happened as a stand alone or as a result of DL getting rid of an uneconomical liability that was brought over to the new company by NW, the Delta pilots should be protected from those job losses... I think you've agreed with this premiss, it is just a matter of executing the appropriate protections. FWIW, I agree with you that fences for as long as the -9's are around, would be more appropriate than stapling the bottom 400.---(I say that at great risk from my brother Delta pilots on this forum-maybe I should get a medal or a certificate or something for my courageous stand)

You should get a medal and i honestly appreciate the honest discussion. Cheers to a middle ground :beer:

 

[Superpilot92]

Superpilot, Have you done the math, what % would you be on the proposed list and what percent are you on the NWA list now. So if 400 NW guys aren't on the bottom, do you think 400 Delta guys should be?

The math is that the % isnt even close. the LAST DAL pilot is almost 500 numbers Senior to the LAST NWA pilot. That doesnt follow anywhere close to status Que %. Short term worries about the DC9s on the DAL side doesnt Warren stapling the bottom 10% of NWA pilots which effects those pilots for an entire career not just as long as the DC9s are around.

Fence them up, protect every Current DAL pilot for as long as the DC9s are flying. Sounds good. If the DC9s get parked in 2, 4 years and that causes a surplus of pilots then furlough from the bottom and if it goes up to the last of the Current (pre-merger) DAL pilot then he can be safe from furlough and furlough the pre-merger NWA pilots in the unlikely event this ever was to occur. That is a middle road not a staple job.

 

[Superpilot92]

Noone is talking about the NWA 2001 hire going from 2 or 3 year pay to 8 or 9 yr pay when he comes over to the delta contract

I assure you those pilots would probably rather keep their old longevity than give up their seniority. What would you prefer? Seniority or a pay bump?

 

[PuffDriver]

I assure you those pilots would probably rather keep their old longevity than give up their seniority. What would you prefer? Seniority or a pay bump?

I would take the 40k/yr pay hike and within 2% of my original position at NWA.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Exactly, and the fact is that almost everyone on the proposed list will enjoy the bidding authority that we are getting. There will be more choices. I personally want ER out of MSP. :laugh:

 

[Speedbird34]

Our veiws are not important any more. We already delegated our rights.
We shall have a list by 20 November and good or bad we shall all have to deal with it. I do not think Dalpa position is extreme. It does not protect my career expectations and Nalpa position is definitely a huge windfall for the northwest pilots.
Good luck to Delta pilots hoping this SLI is not too brutal towards us.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Exactly, this proposal needs to be seen for what it is and what it was attempting.
I think that for the group as a whole it maintains career expectations.

 

[michael707767]

We supposedly have a 1997 hire as a Captain on the 767 in LA.

No supposed about it. We do have a 97 hire on the 767 in LAX.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

As LAX grows I bet that you see 01 hires in the left seat out there as well. After this AE you may see your first 07 Captain as well. Yes, it is a long shot, but the fact is that NYC MD-88A only has about 6 people senior to him that have it bid.

 

[Superpilot92]

I would take the 40k/yr pay hike and within 2% of my original position at NWA.

To bad its not within 2% across the board and its more like DAL pilots got anywhere from a 1-5% bump in seniority while NWA pilots took a hit of around that same amount. Also who is getting 40k a year pay bump other than the previous furlough guys?

The disconnect here is that seniority isnt for sale on the NWA side. The NWA mec has made that pretty clear. I am sure when our proposed list comes out you guys will see it just as bogus as we all see yours.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

You are still not seeing it for what it is. That is fair. I do not expect you to.
Claiming a bump in seniority discounts that it is for career expectations and rationalizing the list based upon equipment at each pre merger carrier. Looking at it myopically works for your argument, and it will work for our rebuttal.