Pilots at Airtran pick up open time???

[PCL_128]

Why shouldn't the senior guys still be able to fly as much as they want? Everybody always talks about the benefits of seniority but why should a senior pilot suffer? Its not his fault you got hired after he did.

Absolutely despicable.

 

[Captain Overs]

Its been that way since the beginning of time. The sooner people realize the way the world works then they'll be a lot happier. I stopped getting upset at things I knew would happen.

If you want charity and goodwill, find a church who donates to the needy.

 

[Secret Squirrel]

The companies know what they need to furlough to reduce costs to an acceptable level. I don't see picking up open time as keeping you on the street. Those trips are going to be flown no matter what.

Why shouldn't the senior guys still be able to fly as much as they want? Everybody always talks about the benefits of seniority but why should a senior pilot suffer? Its not his fault you got hired after he did.

There ya go. This is why I don't see the tranny ever getting a descent contract or being a good place to work. I fear the minority of pilots over there will lose out to the selfish cowed majority. Good luck guys, this is the attitude you are going to be fighting FROM WITHIN YOUR RANKS. And the funny thing is that this comment is basically "Why should I strike, I like my pay and want to keep working so I am going to cross the line, screw you guys."

 

[maxblast72]

I am sitting around the house on reserve not being used for the 4th day this month, so I cranked some numbers out (on the Captain side) for what Airtran could have down instead of furloughing/downgrading using the numbers out of the bid packs from August and September.

Total block hours for September for B717 were 23,533 and B737 were 14,797. Total Captain bid lines for August for the B717 were 463 and for the B737 were 333.

The company could of transitioned 20 B737 Captains over to the B717 (due to a larger block hour reduction on the 737 I am assuming due to the sale of a few 737s) and not downgraded anyone if they would have built the following bid pack:

B717:

369 hard lines (built with 62 avg block hour)
14 CDO lines
40 Build-ups
60 Reserves

B737:

235 hard lines (built with 62 avg block hours)
4 CDO line
24 Buildup lines
50 Reserve Lines

If they would have built the bid pack in this fashion, we would had 796 Captains in both August and September. Obviously the avg block hours per hard line would have reduced from the mid 80s to 62 hours for September. The block hours for Nov/Dec would come back up close to 70 (10% increase) as monthly block flying increased for the holidays.

So the question is? Make everyone feel a little pain or make 10% of the group feel alot of pain.

 

[Captain Overs]

There ya go. This is why I don't see the tranny ever getting a descent contract or being a good place to work. I fear the minority of pilots over there will lose out to the selfish cowed majority. Good luck guys, this is the attitude you are going to be fighting FROM WITHIN YOUR RANKS. And the funny thing is that this comment is basically "Why should I strike, I like my pay and want to keep working so I am going to cross the line, screw you guys."

Take your emotion out of the argument. What I'm talking about is different from striking. I'm all for supporting brothers during a strike. I wouldn't cross a picket line.

I don't know of many, if any, companies that require all the employees to take a pay cut so they don't layoff workers. It happens, I'm sure, but not the norm. This is a different scenario and we all know it sucks for the bottom man on the totem pole.

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

Take your emotion out of the argument. What I'm talking about is different from striking. I'm all for supporting brothers during a strike. I wouldn't cross a picket line.

I don't know of many, if any, companies that require all the employees to take a pay cut so they don't layoff workers. It happens, I'm sure, but not the norm. This is a different scenario and we all know it sucks for the bottom man on the totem pole.

I can assume that, if you are at FL, you voted for TA2. You sound very much like a self-centered ass I flew with while it was on the table for voting.

 

[rajflyboy]

If I was at Air Tran and still had a job I'd be happy as hell.

Air Tran is pretty fortunate.

You Guys have a Sleeping Giant based at the same airport that for years has let you Operate any way you want to.

You Wouldn't have the same Luck in Dallas or Denver. The Giant would have already crushed you in those Cities years ago.

I'd be sending A Retainer to Delta Management thanking them for My Job !!!

 

[Lear70]

If I was at Air Tran and still had a job I'd be happy as hell.

Air Tran is pretty fortunate.

You Guys have a Sleeping Giant based at the same airport that for years has let you Operate any way you want to.

You Wouldn't have the same Luck in Dallas or Denver. The Giant would have already crushed you in those Cities years ago.

I'd be sending A Retainer to Delta Management thanking them for My Job !!!

Someone needs a history lesson...

Here's a hint: The "Giant" can't compete on a CASM basis on the same city pairings. They tried that, and ended up in Ch. 11 Bankruptcy.

 

[jetdawg]

statement

remember the idiotic statement giving by captain "whatever", he did not say he was at airtran me thinks he wants to stir the pot and watch all you attack.

 

[rajflyboy]

Someone needs a history lesson...

Here's a hint: The "Giant" can't compete on a CASM basis on the same city pairings. They tried that, and ended up in Ch. 11 Bankruptcy.

Delta could run flights at a cheaper rate than you on your most profitable routes. They could do it easily if they wanted too. They have had their chances over the years but did not go for it.

How long would it take? 3 Months? 4 Months? Thats it. Take a loss for a couple of months. Its been done before and it will be happen again. Its called BUSINESS.

Delta could afford that to drop a competitor if they wanted too.

 

[PCL_128]

They have had their chances over the years but did not go for it.

Actually, they have tried it. Over and over and over again. We're still here.

 

[mad691]

they actually did a great job of it. They went bankrupt. How quickly we for get they have only been out of bankruptcy for a short time. Try again.

 

[CoolSidePillow]

The companies know what they need to furlough to reduce costs to an acceptable level. I don't see picking up open time as keeping you on the street. Those trips are going to be flown no matter what.

Why shouldn't the senior guys still be able to fly as much as they want? Everybody always talks about the benefits of seniority but why should a senior pilot suffer? Its not his fault you got hired after he did.

How about general principle? How about doing what is right even if it hurts? How about having a pair between your legs you human d*****bag? As long as all you redneck suckups move the planes on time and go the extra mile and pick up open time they have no reason to negotiate. The only time management will ever truly see the light is when we turn it out. That is the hard fact of business. Do it for nothing and they will offer nothing.

 

[BSkin]

Mike Best said it would bankrupt half our pilots so he wasn't in support of it. Thus management built the lines to a normal LVI value for September creating a crapload of reserve pilots.

Then Mike Best is a TOOL! It could've been done. Everyone could've sacrificed a little to keep everyone on property! It would've been only for a couple months, as oil will be below 100 soon, maybe after hurricane season.

On another note, any CA that accepts an FO assignment while guys are on the street should be strung up by the ballsack!

 

[maxblast72]

Then Mike Best is a TOOL! It could've been done. Everyone could've sacrificed a little to keep everyone on property! It would've been only for a couple months, as oil will be below 100 soon, maybe after hurricane season.

I personally was in favor of the reduced line values to keep everyone on the property (and even started the thread on the NPA forum after I heard how Jetblue was handling their block hour reduction from a Jetblue jumpseater).

However, don't blame Mike Best. If it would have went to a vote, I am sure at least 50% of the pilot group would not have said yes to a 25% reduction in average line credit. Too many guys living paycheck to paycheck or not worried about the junior guys. Mike was just going with what he thought the majority wanted.

 

[gt1900]

Max..... Youve got to be kidding right??? Why in the world would the company build LVI's at 62 hours to save some pilots from hitting the street.. They would still have to pay the 70hr guarantee to everyone else.. In other words, theyd be paying every pilot at AAI an extra 8 hours they didn't work.. That makes absolute zero business sense.. This is about the airline making money, or in this case, loosing as little as possible. The company needs to be as efficient as possible with pilots. That means every pilot on property flying 83.3 hours a month and flying 999 hours for the year. AAI wants the least amount of pilots to do the most amount of work.. That keeps the pilot cost as low as possible.. Having a bunch of pilots sitting around doing nothing cost a lot of money. I laughed when everyone said the LVI would drop to 70hours.. That doesn't help the company at all.. What helps the company is furloughing the extra guys that they don't need to fly the scheduled. Now, I hate that it has happened and I hope we get those guys back ASAP (btw.. I ain't picking up open time) but pilots need to stop looking at this as the company screwing them every time. The company needs to do whats right to keep the company in business as well.. AAI has made a lot of very good business decisions, thats why they are where they are today.. They have also made a few stupid business decisions (ie p1ssing off the pilots and losing the good relationship that once existed). However, if oil keeps going down those guys will be back on line pretty quick.. I hope...

 

[Secret Squirrel]

Max..... Youve got to be kidding right??? Why in the world would the company build LVI's at 62 hours to save some pilots from hitting the street.. They would still have to pay the 70hr guarantee to everyone else.. In other words, theyd be paying every pilot at AAI an extra 8 hours they didn't work.. That makes absolute zero business sense.. This is about the airline making money, or in this case, loosing as little as possible. The company needs to be as efficient as possible with pilots. That means every pilot on property flying 83.3 hours a month and flying 999 hours for the year. AAI wants the least amount of pilots to do the most amount of work.. That keeps the pilot cost as low as possible.. Having a bunch of pilots sitting around doing nothing cost a lot of money. I laughed when everyone said the LVI would drop to 70hours.. That doesn't help the company at all.. What helps the company is furloughing the extra guys that they don't need to fly the scheduled. Now, I hate that it has happened and I hope we get those guys back ASAP (btw.. I ain't picking up open time) but pilots need to stop looking at this as the company screwing them every time. The company needs to do whats right to keep the company in business as well.. AAI has made a lot of very good business decisions, thats why they are where they are today.. They have also made a few stupid business decisions (ie p1ssing off the pilots and losing the good relationship that once existed). However, if oil keeps going down those guys will be back on line pretty quick.. I hope...

You mean business decisions like not preparing for increased oil prices, then when oil prices go up they hedge just before oil prices peak and go down. Then tell the employees it is their fault they are not making money? Were those the good business decisions? As far as I am concerned so far AAI has been profitable on the backs of employees and starting up during a good period for a startup. Delta was hurt and could not effectively compete because of 9/11 and prior bad business decisions. Also Boeing was trying to find buyers for the 717 and fill buyers for production slots on the 737 so they were giving sweet deals. Sounds more like good timing then incredible managment. Seems like the first time it got tough managment crumbled.

I think that management will NEVER do what is right for this employee group, only what is good for the investors. If the employee groups do not stand up for themselves they will get nothing. And that is what they have gotten.

 

[gt1900]

Secret... Not trying to argue with you... BUT.. How in the heck do you plan on increases in oil??? NOBODY has any idea what oil is going to do.. Its a gamble no matter what happens... SWA gambled and got lucky.. But otherwise, there is absolutly no way to prepare... If you think there is, tell them what oil is going to do by ths start of 09.. Should AAI hedge like crazy now that fuel is around $100 a barrel?? Or wait and hope it goes down??? For god sakes the analysts who spend every waking moment studying this stuff have no idea what is going to happen with oil prices.. Hinsight is 20/20... Armchair quarterbacking the company for trying to hedge fuel properly is total B.S... And for god sakes.. AAI starting up for a good period for a startup??? OMG.. Didn't AAI do most of their growing after 9/11?? That was the biggest downturn in aviation history.. Tons of airlines went bankrupt and out of business during this "good time for a startup"... AAI has grown and been profitable in perhaps the worst time for a startup in aviation history..

I think that management will NEVER do what is right for this employee group, only what is good for the investors. If the employee groups do not stand up for themselves they will get nothing. And that is what they have gotten

I agree with your above statement 100%.. They could care less about the employees.. Its all about making the shareholders money. Look what Hoeksema did with MEH.. The shareholders love him, and the employees are getting $%^#ed.. That's why the rich get richer and the middle class is going away.. Lets hope the next administration stops the continued destruction of the middle class... It doesn't matter how much my taxes are if I don't have a job.....

 

[Secret Squirrel]

Secret... Not trying to argue with you... BUT.. How in the heck do you plan on increases in oil??? NOBODY has any idea what oil is going to do.. Its a gamble no matter what happens... SWA gambled and got lucky.. But otherwise, there is absolutly no way to prepare... If you think there is, tell them what oil is going to do by ths start of 09.. Should AAI hedge like crazy now that fuel is around $100 a barrel?? Or wait and hope it goes down??? For god sakes the analysts who spend every waking moment studying this stuff have no idea what is going to happen with oil prices.. Hinsight is 20/20... Armchair quarterbacking the company for trying to hedge fuel properly is total B.S... And for god sakes.. AAI starting up for a good period for a startup??? OMG.. Didn't AAI do most of their growing after 9/11?? That was the biggest downturn in aviation history.. Tons of airlines went bankrupt and out of business during this "good time for a startup"... AAI has grown and been profitable in perhaps the worst time for a startup in aviation history..

Actually it was a great time for a start up. Very low operating costs in relation to a legacy. AAI had the ability to negotiate VERY good rates on aircraft because everybody was delaying deliveries/ the 717 was just not catching on. They had VERY low employee costs because of low pay and low seniority. They had the ability to cherry pick routes that they knew were profitable and could compete against higher priced RJ's. Delta in particular was struggling really hard to stay alive and really did turn a blind eye to AAI. They had very high employee costs, older less efficient, more MX aircraft, and lots of inefficient RJs. Probably figured the devil they knew was better than the devil they didn't (Southwest). Problem was Delta turned a blind eye for too long and AAI really sprung up. By the time they were better financially AAI was too big for heavy handed tactics.

September 11 was a bad time for the airlines, but except for a year or so not a bad time for the economy. Lots of growth and low unemployement. Lots of people still had a lot of money (or thought they did) because of the values of their house. Lots of leisure travelers.

And as for your comment about fuel. Any smart company would do what they could to keep a consistant price on their raw material costs. It is not gambling, it is good business practice. Southwest hedged fuel for this very reason and have done it for almost as long as they have been in business. They would reather even pay a little more in the long run to stave off the risk that these "spikes" cause. Almost every airline had fuel heding in place prior to 9/11 but had to give them up in bankruptcy. It is a common practice, not some sort of thing that was invented in the past couple years. I would say Airtran was negligent to not have a fuel hedging plan in place. In other words bad management. I can find thousands of articles showing that analysts thought oil prices were going to go up. Prices have not even been keeping up with inflation over the years let alone the pressures of growing markets (asia) and increase demand. Add to that trend of all commodity markets being driven up over the years. It has nothing to do with knowing there was going to be this big spike, but knowing that prices were going to go up.

 

[Ty Webb]

AAI wants the least amount of pilots to do the most amount of work.. That keeps the pilot cost as low as possible.. Having a bunch of pilots sitting around doing nothing cost a lot of money. I laughed when everyone said the LVI would drop to 70hours.. That doesn't help the company at all.. The company needs to do whats right to keep the company in business as well.

GT, it's not always what you do. it's also how you do it, and when you do it, and what you say to employees.

This is where this management team falls down every time. At some point, if you kick a dog enough times, he's going to bite . . . . Copy?