Integration Day

[Ultra Grump]

What's is anyone's opinion of the NJI FO's that are senior to the most junior Capt at NJA? No bypass pay for them I guess would be fair also??

According to the VSL, there are only 6 NJI FOs that are senior to the most junior NJA PIC, and that by only 3 weeks (7/17/05 vs 8/8/05). My guess is that there's a good chance that at least those 6 guys will upgrade before the integration.

 

[ozpilot]

... to upgrade all the NJI FO's to include the NJA guys that came over.

If that happens the sh*t will really hit the fan. Reread Diesels last post.

 

[RTRHD]

I haven't seen a 4.2 GIV in a while I thought we switched them.

I just found two of them. I thought they were all gone also,along the the paper Jepps. I miss that Plainview.

 

[RNObased]

According to the VSL, there are only 6 NJI FOs that are senior to the most junior NJA PIC, and that by only 3 weeks (7/17/05 vs 8/8/05). My guess is that there's a good chance that at least those 6 guys will upgrade before the integration.

Help, me out here. Why should a person that has a 2005 hire date be allowed to upgrade to G4 capt???

If their number can't hold it on the VSL??

 

[gutshotdraw]

Because

1. We haven't integrated yet and the VSL is not yet binding in any way.
2. When pilots were hired prior to the contract in November 2005, they were told there was zero prospect of a union on the property and they would upgrade based on aircraft deliveries at NJI and they made their decision to accept the position based on that information.
3. They have been repeatedly told ever since that they would upgrade "unencumbered" by NJA pilots joining the NJI operation.
4. Pilots hired in early 2005 have already upgraded to G-IV Captain.
5. NJI pilots will continue to upgrade to G-IV Captain until the "drop-dead" date in the pending integration agreement.

I make no comment on whether these conditions are good, bad, or indifferent. I know "things change" and they undoubtedly will. I'm just stating the facts as they exist today in an effort to answer your question.

Just my guess, but I expect the pilots hired prior to the 2005 contract to upgrade to G-IV Captain prior to the drop-dead date (there aren't that many left). Anyone hired AFTER the contract......I wouldn't hold my breath.

 

[G200_PILOT]

Because

1. We haven't integrated yet and the VSL is not yet binding in any way.
2. When pilots were hired prior to the contract in November 2005, they were told there was zero prospect of a union on the property and they would upgrade based on aircraft deliveries at NJI and they made their decision to accept the position based on that information.
3. They have been repeatedly told ever since that they would upgrade "unencumbered" by NJA pilots joining the NJI operation.
4. Pilots hired in early 2005 have already upgraded to G-IV Captain.
5. NJI pilots will continue to upgrade to G-IV Captain until the "drop-dead" date in the pending integration agreement.

I make no comment on whether these conditions are good, bad, or indifferent. I know "things change" and they undoubtedly will. I'm just stating the facts as they exist today in an effort to answer your question.

Just my guess, but I expect the pilots hired prior to the 2005 contract to upgrade to G-IV Captain prior to the drop-dead date (there aren't that many left). Anyone hired AFTER the contract......I wouldn't hold my breath.

I understand where you're coming from but you have to accept the fact that RTS isn't your best friend and he HAS indeed lied to all of you on several occasions. The fact that someone took the job under certain pretenses means nothing to me. You yourself said that things change. I can sympathize with you that it's not right to be misled, but remember that it wasn't us (NJA pilots) that misled you. We've been talking about single carrier and how it's eventually going to happen for years. This didn't just start a few years ago.

No matter what RTS promised you guys, the letter of the law states how things are going to be. It's very cut and dry. If RTS wants to upgrade all of the FOs to PIC, that's great. To me, it only means that several NJA pilots are going to get to upgrade/ transition over to the G-IV as well. Is it a one out of three for PIC upgrades or is it a one for one? Too lazy to look it up right now. Nevertheless, it benefits NJA pilots just as much as it benefits the NJI guys.

Keep in mind that this "drop dead" date you keep talking about is only about 2 months away so if RTS is going to pull a stunt like this, he better start doing it soon. I hope he has sim slots reserved for all this BS...

 

[RTRHD]

Help, me out here. Why should a person that has a 2005 hire date be allowed to upgrade to G4 capt???

If their number can't hold it on the VSL??

You can't be serious.

 

[RTRHD]

If its 100, that means RTS has to be willing to "upgrade" 133 guys before the merger is complete. At an average cost of lets say $50,000.00 per crew member, he'd be dishing out $6.7 million to keep you guys "happy."

Yeah, you're right, all the NJI FOs will probably get upgraded prior to the merger. What's $6.7 million when it comes to you golden boyz?

So we are in this for the money. The way you talk it's all about the Union. What about the $140,000 worth of types we all already have. Lets just throw that away. There is only 300 of us, we are joining your Union. So whats the big deal?

 

[fischman]

How many people do you think are getting in the door at NJA with 2500hrs?? No one.

I wouldn't be so sure about that.

 

[fischman]

FWIW, not all the NJA guys are going to be jumping to the Gulfstream. I have a 2 hour ass, which restricts me to the XL/XLS or smaller.

 

[gutshotdraw]

I understand where you're coming from but you have to accept the fact that RTS isn't your best friend and he HAS indeed lied to all of you on several occasions. The fact that someone took the job under certain pretenses means nothing to me. You yourself said that things change. I can sympathize with you that it's not right to be misled, but remember that it wasn't us (NJA pilots) that misled you. We've been talking about single carrier and how it's eventually going to happen for years. This didn't just start a few years ago.

No matter what RTS promised you guys, the letter of the law states how things are going to be. It's very cut and dry. If RTS wants to upgrade all of the FOs to PIC, that's great. To me, it only means that several NJA pilots are going to get to upgrade/ transition over to the G-IV as well. Is it a one out of three for PIC upgrades or is it a one for one? Too lazy to look it up right now. Nevertheless, it benefits NJA pilots just as much as it benefits the NJI guys.

Keep in mind that this "drop dead" date you keep talking about is only about 2 months away so if RTS is going to pull a stunt like this, he better start doing it soon. I hope he has sim slots reserved for all this BS...

It is anything but "cut and dried." That's why it is called a negotiation. There hasn't been a court order so there is no "letter of the law." The terms of the integration will be finalized over the next couple of months, then it will be announced, and there will be a phase-in period. The agreement will specify when future positions will be filled according to company-wide bid. It will be either a calendar date or after a specific class has upgraded. Until then, status quo.

As for RTS misleading me, the only time he ever did that was when he showed up 1:15 early for a flight to Belmar :0 Regardless, the integration won't affect me in the slightest except to see the paycheck go up in one column (overtime) and go down in another (dues). I'm fortunate enough to be senior to about 84% of the combined list so that won't be an issue personally. Nevertheless, I am paying close attention to the process because of the many friends on both sides of the company and how it might affect them.

 

[G200_PILOT]

It is anything but "cut and dried." That's why it is called a negotiation. There hasn't been a court order so there is no "letter of the law." The terms of the integration will be finalized over the next couple of months, then it will be announced, and there will be a phase-in period. The agreement will specify when future positions will be filled according to company-wide bid. It will be either a calendar date or after a specific class has upgraded. Until then, status quo.

.

This tells me that you have absolutely NO idea what you're talking about. There are LOAs in place that make this VERY cut and dry when it comes to current upgrades. I suggest you do a little bit of research and read them fully, about three or four times. The option for RTS to say "OK, all you FOs are upgrading tomorrow" is there, however, he'll also have to spend the extra cash to upgrade/transition the NJA guys. Go read it and then come back and tell me that it's not cut and dry.

 

[gutshotdraw]

I've tried to be civil. I've tried to answer questions that were asked. And yes, I know more about this little corporate disaster than you do. In a couple of months, we'll find out who was right and who wasn't.

In the meantime, do us all a favor and bid the Falcon or something else besides the G. 326 people will thank you for it.

And by the way, the phrase is CUT AND DRIED. Not DRY, it's DRIED.

 

[Pervis]

Gutshot, we will all have to deal with those on both sides unable or unwilling to get along or accept everything that will come down. It is like that now in each of our own world. I'm sure you folks have some real tooells too.

One thing you do need to consider, which you probably do. Nothing you people have been told is in writing, so I would not hold my breath. We have all kinds of "interpretation" issues with a written contract, so anything told or promised means nothing without some kind of written agreement. And even then there are all kinds of questions.

As far as some FO's upgrading before the most junior PIC on this side-who cares? There will always be a very small group who benefits greatly and the same for those that appear to get the shaft. Bottom line is the long tem. We will all benefit from one familiy with one goal-profit-through being the industry leader. We all win. Even our competitors, as the standard for wages and work rules come from the leaders.

 

[RTRHD]

Oh Nevermind