AirTran Furloughs coming

[Flynfish]

Q: How many F's are there in the word WAY?

A: There is NO F IN WAY!!!!!!!!

no concessions, period

 

[gt1900]

Minime..... I agree with you. My point is that if managment really steped up and did the right thing, it could work. What I mean by that is, if they came up with a plan and presented it to the employees that showed exactly how the company was going to save money and how they could keep us out of bankruptcy, with oil at $150 a barrel it could work. Id be willing to bet that if SWA was going through the same thing they would trust there managment to do the right thing, and they would take a pay cut. They still look at Herb like a god, we however, don't look at BF or especially SK or KG that way. However, like you, I really don't trust our managment because of what they pulled after 9/11.. They got bonuses when the employees took pay cuts. I wasn't even at AAI at that time and it still p1sses me off just thinking about it. Like I said before, if the company gave us a black and white business plan that showed how the company could save $100 million over the next 2 years through various cost cutting measures, I would possibly vote for it. However, I'm not voting for a pay cut without the entire package from managment. Like you said, pilot wages are a drop in the hat, but with enough cost saving throughout the entire business plan, I would consider it. But, Im not doing it without everyone else taking concessions as well.. Especially managment... A heck of a lot more then 15%..

 

[Flynfish]

gt1900 is addicted to koolaid...Oh Yea

 

[maxblast72]

Hate to say it, but I think Joe Merchant wins the bet by a landslide. Sorry 128, TY, Lear. You guys are right on, but I think that in the end the senior guys will sell the younger ones down the river. Saw it at NWA and I think it will happen here, too. Hope I'm wrong.

The junior guys control the vote here now so it doesn't really matter what the senior guys think. We have about 1000 pilots (out of 1665) that have been here 6 years or less. That is 98% of the FO's and about a 1/3 of the captains. Right now, if I would guess, the mood of the junior guys is no concessions.

Only 10% of the guys at Airtran have been here over 10 years, so if the senior guys want these concessions to "save" the company, they better start practicing their speeches on their FO's.

 

[Clyde Frog]

gt is an idiot.

Go work somewhere else, moron.

We've been taken advantage of and lied to more than anyone on this forum can even possibly imagine.

The senior guys (for the most part) wouldn't consider concessions. That makes the idiots like gt in the vast
minority.

I'm more concerned with the dildos running the union than I am about the concessions ever passing.

 

[scarlet]

Airlines were stupid for pushing for age 65...top pay for another 5 years=REAL Smart.

What happen to Leave of Absences?

I will enjoy my 18 month leave-of unemployment from Airtran and last employer.

This will come to all airlines--ALL Airlines !! I said this was coming from my sources in Feb.

 

[spitfire1500]

Does anyone know how much the state of GA will giv for new type rating if furloughed?

A type what a waste, use it and go back to college.

 

[airlinepilot]

After reading the "what SWA guys/gals would do" I have to agree, yes we would gladly help the company out if it meant saving the company because our management would only ask if, indeed it really made a difference....but management and labor relations are alot like being married...let's see...have they been truthful, faithful, looked after your best interest, and never lied to you.....at SWA...I would say yes....I am not a Tranny so only y'all can answer those questions. Good luck guys and gals

 

[CatfishVT9]

If you went to a doctor with a pain in your leg and he says we can cure it by amputating your arm, anyone can see that it won't cure your problem. To me, the management request for paycuts sounds like a similar scenario.

With that being said, I think that gt1900 has some ideas but they need to be expanded upon. In a straight vote on paycuts, I bet it goes down by about 90% (my vote included since I may be downgraded for about a total 50% cut).

What if the board and NC were able to attach language that contained benchmarks for pay restoration and raises? We give the cut, but pay is restored when oil goes below $120 and an additional raise when it goes below $100. How about employee bonuses tied to executive bonuses? Profit sharing? Some of you financial guys can probably come up with some better ideas, but you get the point.

Oh, and we need to get off the idea of giving the "B" fund contribution in lieu of straight cuts (some have suggested this). Since it's tax free money, this equates to about a 13-16% cut total.

 

[Soverytired]

If I wanted to be an english teacher I would have majored in enlgish... dip$%^$

BTW.. Comming from a guy who paid for his job at Gulfstream to get ahead and is only 1 month off probation, your opinion doesn't mean much...

Surely you'd agree that there's a bit of irony in a poster calling someone an idiot, getting caught using poor grammar while doing it, then defending himself by saying it takes an "English major" to know the difference between "you're" and "your"?

(P.S. WTF is "comming"?)

 

[PCL_128]

What if the board and NC were able to attach language that contained benchmarks for pay restoration and raises? We give the cut, but pay is restored when oil goes below $120 and an additional raise when it goes below $100.

I'm sorry, but we need to get away from the idea that pilots pay for fuel. What do we do if oil goes to $200/bbl? Take a 50% paycut? What if it goes to $250/bbl? A 75% paycut? No, the price of fuel is irrelevant in relation to my compensation. A pilot is worth what a pilot is worth. They can't come to me and get a lower price for my services any more than they can go to the fuel companies and demand to only pay $2/gallon for Jet A. Management better get to work on increasing revenue, because they won't get a dime from my paycheck.

 

[Kharma Police]

Wait a minute...PCL_128 brags about the schedules...Which is it? Something doesn't add up...PCL_128....What say you about this list?

Sorry Mr. RJDC, a bad day at AirTran is still better than a good day at ASA.

 

[Lear70]

I call bullsh*t.

It is best to work with the company, and have the company work with the employees.

Name me ONE time that has worked at AirTran. Just one.

If the management team was different and pilots could reasonably assume that management WOULD do the right thing, then sure, work together. Unfortunately here, management takes, then takes some more, then beats some more out of the pilots and takes that, too. Just look at the last year of contract reinterpretations, givebacks Philpot made in the interest of "working together" that we got NOTHING for, then they took even more in reinterpretations.

Without HARD SNAPBACK PROVISIONS built into any agreement AND concessions in ALL area of management compensation (base salary, bonuses, stock plans, ALL of it), any agreement should die. Hard. Noisily. Painfully.

I guarantee you if the pilots and managment hadn't worked together DAL would not exist today.

I can't believe you actually buy that one. Don't think too many other people would agree with you with their financials.

This gem is priceless:

The DAL pilots knew how to pick there battles. They gave up huge amounts of money to live to play another day. Not to long ago the DAL pilots were some of the most discruntled pilots out there. However, they did their job everyday without a slowdown, or trying to p1ss off the pax. The UAL pilots did there best to p1ss off everyone and now look at the position UAL is in (for the record, I blame the managment more, but the pilots were no saints).

You have GOT to be sh*tting me... The UAL pilots have NOTHING to do with the financial position United is in. How about the WORST bankruptcy organization in U.S. Aviation history? How about the gross mismanagement of Tilton and his crew? How about a business plan that doesn't work even with $75 a Brl oil?

And you blame it on the pilots? GMAFB.

I guarantee you though that if they were in the same position as AAI, the SWA pilots would take cuts to help save the company.

Sure. Because the pilots would know that SWA would make it up to them when times were better. You are fu*king CRAZY if you think you can count on AAI Management for the same thing. Completely out of your mind.

Lets face it, at current oil levels AAI has maybe 18 months of operational cash. If everyone, and I especially mean managment, chips in, AAI just might make it through to better times when we can renegotiate a great pay scale. I don't think a 6 month pay cut is the end of the world, but only if managment shows us a business plan that would actually get us through this mess.

Absolutely NOT!!!

The ONLY way the pilots at AirTran should even ENTERTAIN cuts is if management does the following 7 things IMMEDIATELY:

1. Rescind ALL policies that reinterpret existing contractual language to the pilot's detriment and settle all outstanding grievances on these reinterpretations. They want good will? They NEED concessions? Then THEY show good will FIRST by fixing their mess.

2. Fix SAP. Period. They screwed SAP up over a year ago. The time has long-since passed to fix it. Again, they want good will, THEY give good will FIRST.

3. Fix Scheduling. It doesn't work. For either party. Big screw-ups EVERY DAY in staffing because of the way scheduling works.

4. Management takes cuts similar to what you said above. First thing I agree with you on here. Their cuts must come from ALL parts of their compensation package. Their base compensation is only 20% of their total income - they take a 15% cut ACROSS THE BOARD as a show of LEADERSHIP.

5. Bring back the terminated pilots. ANY side deal negotiated in the last 20 years of airline history ALWAYS brings back hostages. Period.

6. Concessionary period has a HARD TIME LIMIT. They want 6 months, we give them 6 months. Period. They want more after that, they can come back and negotiate it again.

7. Any agreement has a snap-back provision that INCLUDES increases to COLA over 2005 pay rates. The first time the company posts a TOTAL yearly profit, our wages increase 3% per year from 2005, cumulatively. If it's 2010 when we next show a profit for the F.Y. 2009, then the wages come up 16% (cumulative 3% per year) from 2005 wages. This happens without ANY extra negotiations.

Without these provisions in place, you're just giving your position away to management and making it THAT much harder to negotiate in the future, as you give them a LOWER starting point than we already have. This has all happened before, why are we not learning from other airline's mistakes?

Right now they haven't, so obviously I'm not voting for a pay cut.

GOOD!

Now think of the above before you give them concessions without getting ANYTHING in return. All of the above are zero-cost items to the company except 7 and that only happens when the company is profitable again.

ALL AirTran pilots should HOLD THE LINE until an agreement that recognizes the sacrifices of the pilots is hammered out. If the company needs it bad enough, they'll deal. If they don't deal, then they really don't need it that bad.

We need to remember the big picture. I do not want to start over. And lets face it, the job market aint exactly rosie for pilots right now. We as pilots need to remember that getting emotional will not solve anything. We need to use our heads.

Whoa there, fella. Take a look at what you just said.

That was ALL emotion. You are scared for your job. Out of that fear, you're entertaining concessions. That is the basic definition of "getting emotional". You need to take your emotion out of it and look at a "quid pro quo" approach.

The company comes up with a working business plan, fixes the worst of the grievances outstanding and fixes the basic Quality Of Life issues for the pilot group that are zero-cost items NOW, gives time limits and snap-back provisions on concessions, and THEN,,, MAYBE,,, after calm deliberation and, FOR THE FIRST TIME, working TOGETHER with the pilot group, they get their cuts to help everyone through tough times.

p.s. The posters talking about increased fares are exactly right. Fare sales should be out of the question right now and, if they insist on running them just to stimulate web traffic and keeping AAI in people's minds for air travel, they should be limited to the first 3 seats on the airplane, then the cost immediately jumps to break-even and goes up from there.

Until they show they can manage revenue, they can't show us a "reasonable" business plan.

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

NO PAY CUTS!

IF the ENTIRE executive staff gave back EVERY single penny of their bonuses awarded since Jan 1, 2008 and agreed to take NONE through 2010, BF agrees to take ZERO compensation (Kellner set that example) for the remainder of 2008, and possibly 2009, and EVERY single pilot stayed on property, management offered complete transparency in finances and operations, and IF they stopped selling walk-up fares for $99 on an airplane sold to 115/117, and a whole list of other things, then maybe, just maybe, pay cuts MIGHT be in order....but probably not.

 

[MJ42]

Sorry Mr. RJDC, a bad day at AirTran is still better than a good day at ASA.

Not to defend Joe, but your comment does not make sense. I'd bet those who will be furloughed would disagree with your assessment. I know what it's like to be furloughed, and it's possible I may get the opportunity again, I feel for the guys about to hit the streets. Good luck, I hope it's short lived.

 

[greenbayfan]

Excellent post Lear70. Not too many of your fellow pilots can think through a solution like you just did. The problem is, not many in management can either. To management it is black and white. In their f'd up little minds, they think, we lose money, pilots give up pay, it's that simple. Pilots by nature fear for their employment, ESPECIALLY in a down market for pilots like we have now, so don't expect that this won't pass a membership vote. I have been at a now defunct airline where management did the same thing, and trust me, the pay cuts passed with flying colors EVERY time (3 times to be exact).

Anyway, you said:

Any agreement has a snap-back provision that INCLUDES increases to COLA over 2005 pay rates. The first time the company posts a TOTAL yearly profit

Make sure it is OPERATING profit, anything else will allow the company to pay down debt, or use operating profits for anything they see fit to make sure AAI pilots don't see a snapback.

 

[PCL_128]

Not to defend Joe, but your comment does not make sense. I'd bet those who will be furloughed would disagree wit your assessment. I know what it's like to be furloughed, and it's possible I may get the opportunity again, I feel for the guys about to hit the streets. Good luck, I hope it's short lived.

I could get furloughed if we have a second round of furloughs, and I'd still say, without a shadow of a doubt, that I'm happy to have come here instead of staying at my regional. Like he said, no comparison.

 

[MJ42]

I could get furloughed if we have a second round of furloughs, and I'd still say, without a shadow of a doubt, that I'm happy to have come here instead of staying at my regional. Like he said, no comparison.

Well, I hope you don't get furloughed. Any opportunity to further your career is a good move, but the way you guys are being treated combined with the stability at ASA made Kharma's comment seem a bit confusing.

Stability is very important in rough times. The guys that want to make a career at a regional, like Joe, have that stability for now. The rest of us are about to face the same crap that is happening at Air Tran, United, Frontier, Spirit, CAL, American, US Airways...who did I miss? NWA/Dal have bought some time. We may be lucky and avoid a big mess, but we'll still have, at the very least, a mess to clean up.

 

[Lear70]

I could get furloughed if we have a second round of furloughs, and I'd still say, without a shadow of a doubt, that I'm happy to have come here instead of staying at my regional. Like he said, no comparison.

Agreed.

I've been on the street for almost a year now, with Pinnacle (and other companies) hiring street CA's late last year when I was first out.

Didn't go to any of them, came back to flying Lears, and would NOT go back to a regional. A bad day at AirTran was better than most days at PCL (except a few noted overnights with some of the F/A's - was married when I got to AAI, so none of that).

Still doesn't mean it's worth concessions just to "try" to keep AirTran a functioning entity. It's not my job to keep an airline viable; that's why management gets paid what they do. If you want me to make decisions to keep an airline afloat, pay me accordingly.

My personal belief is, after they come to the employee group for concessions, they will still file bankruptcy reorganization at the end of the year, use the new salaries as a STARTING point, and force concessions below there anyway. All concessions will do at this point is lower your income sooner.

Management always has a plan 3 or 4 steps ahead of what they show. This time is no different than any other. SK is a masterful chess player and is leading the band on this one... The day he retires will be a good day for AAI employees; GA is good, but not that good, and KG is nowhere in SK's league...

 

[MJ42]

Agreed.

I've been on the street for almost a year now, with Pinnacle (and other companies) hiring street CA's late last year when I was first out.

Didn't go to any of them, came back to flying Lears, and would NOT go back to a regional. A bad day at AirTran was better than most days at PCL (except a few noted overnights with some of the F/A's - was married when I got to AAI, so none of that).

Still doesn't mean it's worth concessions just to "try" to keep AirTran a functioning entity. It's not my job to keep an airline viable; that's why management gets paid what they do. If you want me to make decisions to keep an airline afloat, pay me accordingly.

My personal belief is, after they come to the employee group for concessions, they will still file bankruptcy reorganization at the end of the year, use the new salaries as a STARTING point, and force concessions below there anyway. All concessions will do at this point is lower your income sooner.

Management always has a plan 3 or 4 steps ahead of what they show. This time is no different than any other. SK is a masterful chess player and is leading the band on this one... The day he retires will be a good day for AAI employees; GA is good, but not that good, and KG is nowhere in SK's league...

There's a big difference between Pinnacle and ASA. Also, although you have been furloughed in the past, from your post you are no longer at Air Tran and not in danger at the bottom of their list. Your comments are easy to say if you are not at risk. Why did you leave Air Tran?