binding arbitration for Delta

[PCL_128]

So now we'll hear from the rjdc village idiot.

I don't really know if we can designate Joey as the RJDC village idiot. There are so many idiots in the RJDC village that that's a hard call.

Oh priceless, hey ****************************** bag, didn't asa used to be pft?

Not only that, but Joey paid for training himself! And then, years later, on the negotiating committee for ASA ALPA, he wasted the pilot group's bargaining leverage in order to secure half of his PFT money back. He's a real winner!

 

[JoeMerchant]

So now we'll hear from the rjdc village idiot.

Look folks....737Pylt is back under his alter-ego....What did you get banned for this time 737Pylt?

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Look folks....737Pylt is back under his alter-ego....What did you get banned for this time 737Pylt?

Who the hell is 737pylt? I understand your nervousness though Joe. With all the cuts at the regionals, I'd be nervous too. Problem is, I don't give a wit about you, your rjdc pals, or your job.
BTW, how did you spend your $million?

 

[Flyer1015]

All of this can be answered with one simple word: arbitration. You may not like the arbitrator's decision, but he looked at all of the contract language, all of the negotiations notes, all of the submitted legal briefs, and determined that you are wrong. It's just that simple. Such is life. You can claim that it "never should have gone to arbitration" all you want, but that's not how things work in the real world. Your PCL/CJC scope issue never should have had to go to arbitration either, but....

That's good and all, but what about management ignoring the "every 2 new FO spots, 1 must be a Eagle flowthrough" rule?

Eagle guys got hosed big time by that rule being ignored.

What's to say other rules aren't "conveniently" ignored once Delta becomes the big Delta?

That's why I still think those companies with flowthrough/flowback provisions (XJ and CP) should be at the table to talk.

 

[Flyer1015]

Translation: I can't get out of my present job, I'm stuck, so I'll form an organization that will get me what I want through a lawsuit!

Did it occur to you that JoePilot wants to stay at his present job, as opposed to "can't get out."????

Super seniority, great schedules that come with high seniority, and pay are all big reasons to stay put.

Facing the truth, ANY RJ Captain with 12+ yrs at any regional with take a paycut with FO salary at any legacy. At some legacies, the paycut will last the ENTIRE time as a FO!

For some people, it's just not worth it.

Times have changed, and regionals are now becoming acceptable 'final homes' for pilots. Some unwillingly, but many more willingly.

I say good for JoeMerchant. I'm glad for him and the decision he made to stay put at ASA.

Looks like he's better at Air Tran than you are at ASA. With all the cuts coming at the regionals, its ok to be nervous joey!

I dunno about that, just heard a rumor that Airtran is about to furlough a pretty hefty amount.

PCL_128 is a friend, and I hope he will still be okay.

I don't see JoeMerchant losing his job anytime soon.

 

[PCL_128]

That's good and all, but what about management ignoring the "every 2 new FO spots, 1 must be a Eagle flowthrough" rule?

Again, the arbitrator ruled. I'm not familiar with the exact language and why the arbitrator ruled the way he did, but his word is final (unless you subscribe to USAPA's definition of "binding," anyway ).

 

[PCL_128]

Did it occur to you that JoePilot wants to stay at his present job, as opposed to "can't get out."????

That's true in a minority of cases. Many of these guys come up with that excuse after years and years of trying unsuccessfully to leave. At your company, the MEM hub is filled with these guys. But if you ask them, they'll swear up and down that they always wanted to stay. Pay no attention to the five interviews they failed.

Times have changed, and regionals are now becoming acceptable 'final homes' for pilots. Some unwillingly, but many more willingly.

I'm confident that your opinion on this will change after spending some more time at Pinnacle. Did you hear that the negotiations apparently broke down, yet again? That's the rumor.

I dunno about that, just heard a rumor that Airtran is about to furlough a pretty hefty amount.

PCL_128 is a friend, and I hope he will still be okay.

I don't see JoeMerchant losing his job anytime soon.

My job is just fine for now. My prayers go out to our pilots that are facing a furlough, however. With that being said, I have yet to hear a single one of them mention that they wish they'd stayed at their regional carrier. The difference is night and day, and there will be a job for them to come back to.

As for Joey, his job is only one RFP away from extinction, just like all regional jobs.

 

[Superpilot92]

flow agreements work both ways, in good times they are good for all in bad times they are good for mainline. Thats just how it works. Unfortunately we have had a run of bad times in the past 10 years but the time will come when a flow works in the upward motion just as it did for some of the COEX folks at CAL before 911 hit the fan.

 

[Flyer1015]

flow agreements work both ways, in good times they are good for all in bad times they are good for mainline.

LOL! Even in the good times, I don't think the flowthrough was ever 'good' for Eagle.

Again, the arbitrator ruled. I'm not familiar with the exact language and why the arbitrator ruled the way he did, but his word is final (unless you subscribe to USAPA's definition of "binding," anyway ).

No, the arbitrator ruling was well afterwards, it was regarding how many AA pilots could flowback (arbitrator allowed as many flowbacks as Eagle pilots had AA numbers... so over 600 flowbacks. This, as opposed to flowback only the same number as had flow throughed... which would only have been 115 or so).

AMR simply ignored the '2-for-1' rule because AMR would incur two training cycles to get a flowthrough to AA (newhire training at AA + replacement at Eagle). Off the street, AMR incurred only one training event (newhire training at AA).

That's true in a minority of cases. Many of these guys come up with that excuse after years and years of trying unsuccessfully to leave. At your company, the MEM hub is filled with these guys. But if you ask them, they'll swear up and down that they always wanted to stay. Pay no attention to the five interviews they failed.

I can't speak much for Pinnacle, but my Eagle friends I know are all captains, and all there for 15+ years. They don't want to go anywhere else for precisely the reasons listed above.

I'm confident that your opinion on this will change after spending some more time at Pinnacle. Did you hear that the negotiations apparently broke down, yet again? That's the rumor.

Yes, I get the memos. Apparently, a stale-mate on PBS.

My job is just fine for now. My prayers go out to our pilots that are facing a furlough, however. With that being said, I have yet to hear a single one of them mention that they wish they'd stayed at their regional carrier. The difference is night and day, and there will be a job for them to come back to.

As for Joey, his job is only one RFP away from extinction, just like all regional jobs.

It's a tough time for anyone in aviation. Good luck to us all. Given the choice, though, *today* , I would rather be a 10yr regional captain than a newhire FO at a major. I'm not saying you're at a bad place, and I'm not saying JoeMerchant is at a bad place. All things equal, I dunno, I'd rather be up on a seniority list somewhere. True, RFPs are a threat, but they always have been. We'll have to wait and see what happens with the Delta merger to all the Airlink and Connection carriers. For now, I'll have to see what becomes of the ATL flying for 9E. Whatever THAT result is, it should say a lot for post-merger plans for Pinnacle.

Guess I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue.......

 

[PCL_128]

AMR simply ignored the '2-for-1' rule

They ignored it because the contractual language allowed them to. It specifically allows AMR to withhold class dates from these pilots due to "operational necessity." Like I said, negotiate bad contract language, live with the results.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Scope IN RJs

flow agreements work both ways, in good times they are good for all in bad times they are good for mainline. Thats just how it works.

Super92:

Flows don't work well. Consider how Nicolau's seniority ruling effected the US Air pilots who flowed to Mid Atlantic.

Compass is a virtual copy of Mid Atlantic's bilateral flow.

Pilot Disadvantages from a flow:

• Pilots sold a promise now that the Company might not keep in the future.
• Usually pay rates are lower to offset the mainline career promise (pay now for something I might not get)
• Pilot longevity is destroyed as the pilot crosses certificates
• ALPA has a conflicting duty of representation
• Pilots separated by an arbitrary line which can effect seniority integration and recall rights **

Consider the alternative, One list

• Pilots know they have a number
• Pilots know their longevity
• There are no "rights" that give rise to an RJDC type lawsuit - everyone is treated equally by their union
• Scope includes pilots on the list. Company can buy what they want and they WILL BE FLOWN BY MAINLINE PILOTS
• Mainline flying grows
• Mainline can buy the best airplane for the market and use it to kick the competition's butt. Why do you think Delta has so many CRJ200's? It wasn't because they were the best choice.

PCL, do you disagree Sir?

** Lets say you and I flow to Compass. The Delta buys Hawaiian. Our seniority would be an afterthought to Hawaiian's 717 drivers. Heck, we are not even on the "property" at Compass. But, you can hold 320, or 757, now. Fair?

One list is a whole lot cleaner. If you don't know who's been winning the scope war, look out the window.

Scope out RJ's and I would never admit it, but we want the same thing. The only way we are going to win is to scope them IN!

 

[PCL_128]

Super92:

Flows don't work well. Consider how Nicolau's seniority ruling effected the US Air pilots who flowed to Mid Atlantic.

Compass is a virtual copy of Mid Atlantic's bilateral flow.

Pilot Disadvantages from a flow:

• Pilots sold a promise now that the Company might not keep in the future.
• Usually pay rates are lower to offset the mainline career promise (pay now for something I might not get)
• Pilot longevity is destroyed as the pilot crosses certificates
• ALPA has a conflicting duty of representation

Consider the alternative, One list

• Pilots know they have a number
• Pilots know their longevity
• There are no "rights" that give rise to an RJDC type lawsuit - everyone is treated equally by their union
• Scope includes pilots on the list. Company can buy what they want and they WILL BE FLOWN BY MAINLINE PILOTS
• Mainline flying grows

PCL, do you disagree Sir?

The only point I would disagree with is your assertion that ALPA has a conflict of interest with a flow-through setup. I see no conflict of interest. But I do agree that one-list proposals are far superior to any sort of flow-through and should be the ultimate goal of every mainline and regional MEC. My opinion has always been that flow-throughs are a baby step on the way to making bigger strides towards a single list.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I do agree that one-list proposals are far superior to any sort of flow-through and should be the ultimate goal of every mainline and regional MEC. My opinion has always been that flow-throughs are a baby step on the way to making bigger strides towards a single list.

And we agree, it is a step in the right direction.

But, take the Delta pilot, who flowed to Compass, then merged with Hawaiian. (if you look at the merger documents that is a very likely scenario) ALPA would tie itself up in knots with lawsuits flying every direction... exactly like Mid Atlantic and US Air. The smart move is to staple Compass now.

The RJDC's attorney - Mike Haber's first clients in the US Air debacle were pilots wrapped up in the US Air flow mechanism. It has happened and will happen again, unless we change procedures. That is where the snowball started.

 

[PCL_128]

The smart move is to staple Compass now.

Agreed. Unfortunately, it appears that your MECs weren't interested in such a scenario. "Those that fail to learn from history...."

 

[~~~^~~~]

Don't know... SLI is not done.

 

[PCL_128]

I'm curious why you believe that DAL will be buying another airline. Have there been any comments by management to lead you to believe this? First thing I've heard of it.

 

[~~~^~~~]

PCL_128:

Delta's done bunches of mergers in the past. Pan Am, Western, Northeast, C&S and Northwest. Sure there will be another.

Remember Delta's goals with this merger. I keep saying too much, but there have been some pretty big hints dropped on this board.

Regardless, we pilots should have a plan. One list would be a good plan.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

......
Yes, there are some good possibilities for that and more down the road. Read the section one of the JPWA. There are some provisions in there that make a man wonder....

 

[hockeypilot44]

PCL_128:

Delta's done bunches of mergers in the past. Pan Am, Western, Northeast, C&S and Northwest. Sure there will be another.

Remember Delta's goals with this merger. I keep saying too much, but there have been some pretty big hints dropped on this board.

Regardless, we pilots should have a plan. One list would be a good plan.

I'm guessing you are referring to Midwest. I have heard the same rumors.

 

[Flyer1015]

They ignored it because the contractual language allowed them to. It specifically allows AMR to withhold class dates from these pilots due to "operational necessity." Like I said, negotiate bad contract language, live with the results.

Now you're talking like management. Nobody at Eagle could have foreseen the unfairness of flowthroughs, and the tremendous amounts of flowbacks. If binding arbitration is shomehow a 'victory' , then I'm gonna have to side with JoeMerchant on this topic.

*We still friends though.