binding arbitration for Delta

[JoeMerchant]

If there's a lesson to be learned from the Eagle situation, it's that you should get the hell out of the commuters as quickly as possible and forget the idea of making a career from a damned sub-contractor. Most of those senior Eagle guys could be furlough-safe at the majors right now if they had left when they had the chance, but instead, they're waiting to find out if AMR manages to sell off their company and cuts their flying. Don't be a regional lifer!

Herndon's village idiot speaks again....If you actually try to make a career out of half of the domestic US flying....you are an idiot accoding to our PFT128 ALPA cheerleader....He is so much smarter than those of us who are actually trying to make a career and enjoying it here....He is so much better off at Air Tran than we are.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Eagle got the language that they agreed to. Guess they should have been more concerned with language in their agreement than getting that "coveted" AMR seniority number.

For once PCL_128 speaks the truth....Let this be a lesson to the regional folks....Don't believe the flowthrough hype.....It is simply job protection for the mainline guys....Single list or just keep it separate....Forget these lame flowthrough schemes....

 

[Flyer1015]

Taking issues to arbitration is part of having a contract.

It should never have gone to arbitration in the first place.

I didn't see the Eagle pilots screaming bloody murder when they agreed to the flowthrough in the first place because of ambiguous language. They were just all too happy to have their flowthrough.

Had they known how unfairly they were gonna get screwed due to the APA on a hellbent mission, they wouldn't have agreed to it. APA has been pretty arrogant against the Eagle pilot group.

Eagle got the language that they agreed to. Guess they should have been more concerned with language in their agreement than getting that "coveted" AMR seniority number.

They "coveted" seniority number meant nothing.

The DEAL called for "every 2 pilots hired at AA, 1 should be a flowthrough." That every-2-for-1 agreement NEVER was obeyed!

AMR, being the beotch they are, didn't want to pay for two training events involved with getting a flowthrough to mainline, and a replacement for that flowthrough.

That is what pis$ed off Eagle pilots.... the fact their flowthrough was never respected in terms of what was agreed upon.

Why didn't the flowthrough get respected, and flow 1 Eagle pilot for every 2 spots open at AA?

And yet, when it came to screwing the Eagle pilots, APA had no problems in getting things their way in arbitration.

None of these agreements are forced upon anyone. The regional pilot groups got to approve them. Nothing has changed here. The merger doesn't change the regional pilots' agreement to the flowthroughs. They have no place whatsoever in sitting at the table to discuss the JPWA.

[/quote]

I point to the Eagle system. Their flowthrough agreement was written, yet not respected with the 1-to-2 rule. It was agreed that for every 2 newhire spots available, 1 would be a Eagle flowthrough. That never happened.

So, my point is that CP and XJ should be at those meetings to make sure everyone is on the same page with the flowthrough/flowback issues.

It affects both the major NWA/DAL guys, and it affects the CP/XJ guys.

 

[PCL_128]

It should never have gone to arbitration in the first place.



Had they known how unfairly they were gonna get screwed due to the APA on a hellbent mission, they wouldn't have agreed to it. APA has been pretty arrogant against the Eagle pilot group.



They "coveted" seniority number meant nothing.

The DEAL called for "every 2 pilots hired at AA, 1 should be a flowthrough." That every-2-for-1 agreement NEVER was obeyed!

AMR, being the beotch they are, didn't want to pay for two training events involved with getting a flowthrough to mainline, and a replacement for that flowthrough.

That is what pis$ed off Eagle pilots.... the fact their flowthrough was never respected in terms of what was agreed upon.

Why didn't the flowthrough get respected, and flow 1 Eagle pilot for every 2 spots open at AA?

And yet, when it came to screwing the Eagle pilots, APA had no problems in getting things their way in arbitration.
quote]

I point to the Eagle system. Their flowthrough agreement was written, yet not respected with the 1-to-2 rule. It was agreed that for every 2 newhire spots available, 1 would be a Eagle flowthrough. That never happened.

So, my point is that CP and XJ should be at those meetings to make sure everyone is on the same page with the flowthrough/flowback issues.

It affects both the major NWA/DAL guys, and it affects the CP/XJ guys.

All of this can be answered with one simple word: arbitration. You may not like the arbitrator's decision, but he looked at all of the contract language, all of the negotiations notes, all of the submitted legal briefs, and determined that you are wrong. It's just that simple. Such is life. You can claim that it "never should have gone to arbitration" all you want, but that's not how things work in the real world. Your PCL/CJC scope issue never should have had to go to arbitration either, but....

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Herndon's village idiot speaks again....

So now we'll hear from the rjdc village idiot.

If you actually try to make a career out of half of the domestic US flying....you are an idiot accoding to our PFT128 ALPA cheerleader....

Oh priceless, hey ****************************** bag, didn't asa used to be pft?

He is so much smarter than those of us who are actually trying to make a career and enjoying it here....

Translation: I can't get out of my present job, I'm stuck, so I'll form an organization that will get me what I want through a lawsuit!

He is so much better off at Air Tran than we are.....

Looks like he's better at Air Tran than you are at ASA. With all the cuts coming at the regionals, its ok to be nervous joey!

 

[PCL_128]

So now we'll hear from the rjdc village idiot.

I don't really know if we can designate Joey as the RJDC village idiot. There are so many idiots in the RJDC village that that's a hard call.

Oh priceless, hey ****************************** bag, didn't asa used to be pft?

Not only that, but Joey paid for training himself! And then, years later, on the negotiating committee for ASA ALPA, he wasted the pilot group's bargaining leverage in order to secure half of his PFT money back. He's a real winner!

 

[JoeMerchant]

So now we'll hear from the rjdc village idiot.

Look folks....737Pylt is back under his alter-ego....What did you get banned for this time 737Pylt?

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Look folks....737Pylt is back under his alter-ego....What did you get banned for this time 737Pylt?

Who the hell is 737pylt? I understand your nervousness though Joe. With all the cuts at the regionals, I'd be nervous too. Problem is, I don't give a wit about you, your rjdc pals, or your job.
BTW, how did you spend your $million?

 

[Flyer1015]

All of this can be answered with one simple word: arbitration. You may not like the arbitrator's decision, but he looked at all of the contract language, all of the negotiations notes, all of the submitted legal briefs, and determined that you are wrong. It's just that simple. Such is life. You can claim that it "never should have gone to arbitration" all you want, but that's not how things work in the real world. Your PCL/CJC scope issue never should have had to go to arbitration either, but....

That's good and all, but what about management ignoring the "every 2 new FO spots, 1 must be a Eagle flowthrough" rule?

Eagle guys got hosed big time by that rule being ignored.

What's to say other rules aren't "conveniently" ignored once Delta becomes the big Delta?

That's why I still think those companies with flowthrough/flowback provisions (XJ and CP) should be at the table to talk.

 

[Flyer1015]

Translation: I can't get out of my present job, I'm stuck, so I'll form an organization that will get me what I want through a lawsuit!

Did it occur to you that JoePilot wants to stay at his present job, as opposed to "can't get out."????

Super seniority, great schedules that come with high seniority, and pay are all big reasons to stay put.

Facing the truth, ANY RJ Captain with 12+ yrs at any regional with take a paycut with FO salary at any legacy. At some legacies, the paycut will last the ENTIRE time as a FO!

For some people, it's just not worth it.

Times have changed, and regionals are now becoming acceptable 'final homes' for pilots. Some unwillingly, but many more willingly.

I say good for JoeMerchant. I'm glad for him and the decision he made to stay put at ASA.

Looks like he's better at Air Tran than you are at ASA. With all the cuts coming at the regionals, its ok to be nervous joey!

I dunno about that, just heard a rumor that Airtran is about to furlough a pretty hefty amount.

PCL_128 is a friend, and I hope he will still be okay.

I don't see JoeMerchant losing his job anytime soon.

 

[PCL_128]

That's good and all, but what about management ignoring the "every 2 new FO spots, 1 must be a Eagle flowthrough" rule?

Again, the arbitrator ruled. I'm not familiar with the exact language and why the arbitrator ruled the way he did, but his word is final (unless you subscribe to USAPA's definition of "binding," anyway ).

 

[PCL_128]

Did it occur to you that JoePilot wants to stay at his present job, as opposed to "can't get out."????

That's true in a minority of cases. Many of these guys come up with that excuse after years and years of trying unsuccessfully to leave. At your company, the MEM hub is filled with these guys. But if you ask them, they'll swear up and down that they always wanted to stay. Pay no attention to the five interviews they failed.

Times have changed, and regionals are now becoming acceptable 'final homes' for pilots. Some unwillingly, but many more willingly.

I'm confident that your opinion on this will change after spending some more time at Pinnacle. Did you hear that the negotiations apparently broke down, yet again? That's the rumor.

I dunno about that, just heard a rumor that Airtran is about to furlough a pretty hefty amount.

PCL_128 is a friend, and I hope he will still be okay.

I don't see JoeMerchant losing his job anytime soon.

My job is just fine for now. My prayers go out to our pilots that are facing a furlough, however. With that being said, I have yet to hear a single one of them mention that they wish they'd stayed at their regional carrier. The difference is night and day, and there will be a job for them to come back to.

As for Joey, his job is only one RFP away from extinction, just like all regional jobs.

 

[Superpilot92]

flow agreements work both ways, in good times they are good for all in bad times they are good for mainline. Thats just how it works. Unfortunately we have had a run of bad times in the past 10 years but the time will come when a flow works in the upward motion just as it did for some of the COEX folks at CAL before 911 hit the fan.

 

[Flyer1015]

flow agreements work both ways, in good times they are good for all in bad times they are good for mainline.

LOL! Even in the good times, I don't think the flowthrough was ever 'good' for Eagle.

Again, the arbitrator ruled. I'm not familiar with the exact language and why the arbitrator ruled the way he did, but his word is final (unless you subscribe to USAPA's definition of "binding," anyway ).

No, the arbitrator ruling was well afterwards, it was regarding how many AA pilots could flowback (arbitrator allowed as many flowbacks as Eagle pilots had AA numbers... so over 600 flowbacks. This, as opposed to flowback only the same number as had flow throughed... which would only have been 115 or so).

AMR simply ignored the '2-for-1' rule because AMR would incur two training cycles to get a flowthrough to AA (newhire training at AA + replacement at Eagle). Off the street, AMR incurred only one training event (newhire training at AA).

That's true in a minority of cases. Many of these guys come up with that excuse after years and years of trying unsuccessfully to leave. At your company, the MEM hub is filled with these guys. But if you ask them, they'll swear up and down that they always wanted to stay. Pay no attention to the five interviews they failed.

I can't speak much for Pinnacle, but my Eagle friends I know are all captains, and all there for 15+ years. They don't want to go anywhere else for precisely the reasons listed above.

I'm confident that your opinion on this will change after spending some more time at Pinnacle. Did you hear that the negotiations apparently broke down, yet again? That's the rumor.

Yes, I get the memos. Apparently, a stale-mate on PBS.

My job is just fine for now. My prayers go out to our pilots that are facing a furlough, however. With that being said, I have yet to hear a single one of them mention that they wish they'd stayed at their regional carrier. The difference is night and day, and there will be a job for them to come back to.

As for Joey, his job is only one RFP away from extinction, just like all regional jobs.

It's a tough time for anyone in aviation. Good luck to us all. Given the choice, though, *today* , I would rather be a 10yr regional captain than a newhire FO at a major. I'm not saying you're at a bad place, and I'm not saying JoeMerchant is at a bad place. All things equal, I dunno, I'd rather be up on a seniority list somewhere. True, RFPs are a threat, but they always have been. We'll have to wait and see what happens with the Delta merger to all the Airlink and Connection carriers. For now, I'll have to see what becomes of the ATL flying for 9E. Whatever THAT result is, it should say a lot for post-merger plans for Pinnacle.

Guess I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue.......

 

[PCL_128]

AMR simply ignored the '2-for-1' rule

They ignored it because the contractual language allowed them to. It specifically allows AMR to withhold class dates from these pilots due to "operational necessity." Like I said, negotiate bad contract language, live with the results.