binding arbitration for Delta

[Flyer1015]

Speaking of which, does anybody have a document that describes (in thorough detail) the flowthrough and flowback agreement at Compass?

 

[PCL_128]

At the very least, Compass and Mesaba should have been invited to that table.

Holy crap, not another JoeyMerchant! And this one is a friend of mine! Don't drink the RJDC kool-aid, buddy.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Holy crap, not another JoeyMerchant! And this one is a friend of mine! Don't drink the RJDC kool-aid, buddy.

Regional pilots are starting to figure out the ponzi scheme that has been pulled on them.....They aren't going to be so quick to rubberstamp Herndons BS this time....

The Compass pilots don't even have their own MEC.....

 

[Flyer1015]

Holy crap, not another JoeyMerchant! And this one is a friend of mine! Don't drink the RJDC kool-aid, buddy.

I'm no RJDC supporter, and haven't drunk any kool-aid in a while.

That said, because of the complex flowthrough and flowback issues existing at Compass and Mesaba, it's my opinion that they should have been there as well.

Eagle guys know all about flowthrough and flowbacks, and many more flowbacks than flowthroughs. If there's a lesson to be learned from the Eagle situation, is that Compass and Mesaba should be there at that table.

 

[PCL_128]

I'm no RJDC supporter, and haven't drunk any kool-aid in a while.

You're walking a fine line....

That said, because of the complex flowthrough and flowback issues existing at Compass and Mesaba, it's my opinion that they should have been there as well.

Let me get this straight: even though the Compass and Mesaba pilots already have flow-through agreements, and even though those agreements aren't going to be altered (merely transferred over to the combined company, like every other contractual obligation), you still think they should have a seat at the table? Please tell me I'm misunderstanding you.

Eagle guys know all about flowthrough and flowbacks, and many more flowbacks than flowthroughs. If there's a lesson to be learned from the Eagle situation, is that Compass and Mesaba should be there at that table.

If there's a lesson to be learned from the Eagle situation, it's that you should get the hell out of the commuters as quickly as possible and forget the idea of making a career from a damned sub-contractor. Most of those senior Eagle guys could be furlough-safe at the majors right now if they had left when they had the chance, but instead, they're waiting to find out if AMR manages to sell off their company and cuts their flying. Don't be a regional lifer!

 

[~~~^~~~]

PCL:

Why'd you "borrow" my avitar from my RJDC days? Just curious, seeing as how you hated the whole "don't tread on me" thing. Irony? Just curious.

 

[PCL_128]

PCL:

Why'd you "borrow" my avitar from my RJDC days? Just curious, seeing as how you hated the whole "don't tread on me" thing. Irony? Just curious.

Well, it isn't really "yours." Unless you around back in the 1700s, anyway. You used it as a message to ALPA against your falsely perceived "second-class citizen" status within the Association. I use it as a message to management.

 

[~~~^~~~]

you still think they should have a seat at the table?

If there's a lesson to be learned from the Eagle situation, it's that you should get the hell out of the commuters as quickly as possible and forget the idea of making a career from a damned sub-contractor.

Don't be a regional lifer!

PCL, wouldn't it be better if the pilots who fly more than half of Delta's block hours had a seat at the table? Maybe we could come up with some solution so that the majority of jobs out there were not at "a dammed sub-contractor."

Lets end "dammed sub-contractors." (I like that term)

Of course, they'd get eaten. But that's OK.

 

[PCL_128]

PCL, wouldn't it be better if the pilots who fly more than half of Delta's block hours had a seat at the table? Maybe we could come up with some solution so that the majority of jobs out there were not at "a dammed sub-contractor."

You know I agree with you on bringing everybody under a single list, Fins, but that doesn't involve allowing the regionals to negotiate directly with mainline management. The regional pilots need to negotiate with their own management. If anyone is to negotiate with mainline management, it needs to be the mainline MEC. I sincerely hope that your MEC comes to its senses and makes capturing back scope a top priority, including a single list, but it won't involve the regional guys doing the negotiating directly with Delta management.

 

[Flyer1015]

Let me get this straight: even though the Compass and Mesaba pilots already have flow-through agreements, and even though those agreements aren't going to be altered (merely transferred over to the combined company, like every other contractual obligation), you still think they should have a seat at the table? Please tell me I'm misunderstanding you.

To clarify, I don't mean have a 'seat' at the table like AWAC has a seat on the board with US Airways. I simply meant a seat in attendance at that meeting. There's a huge difference between the two.

If there's a lesson to be learned from the Eagle situation, it's that you should get the hell out of the commuters as quickly as possible and forget the idea of making a career from a damned sub-contractor. Most of those senior Eagle guys could be furlough-safe at the majors right now if they had left when they had the chance, but instead, they're waiting to find out if AMR manages to sell off their company and cuts their flying. Don't be a regional lifer!

Careful, ya need to know the story of the Eagle flowthrough and flowback.

Ask any Eagle guy that has been around for a while. Don't quote me on this number exactly, but only about 115 ever flowed up from Eagle to AA. MANY more wanted to go, had the number, but didn't get to go. Compass and Mesaba at least have a contractual statement that Compass/Mesaba flowthroughs must be taken BEFORE street new-hires. Eagle didn't have that.

And AMR became 'smart.' They figured, why flow Eagle folks up? That's two training events. One, Eagle guy leaves to AA, and two, Eagle FO upgrades to Eagle Captain. Instead, AMR chose to hire mostly of the street into AA seats... which is just one training event.

AMR saved their dollar. The Eagle flowthrough never really worked. 115 or so is not a great number. Most Eagle guys would say that if you ever wanted to work at American Airlines, the last place you should come to is Eagle.

So when you say 'they should have left when they had the chance' , you have to be careful.

And of course, the Eagle flowbacks came hard. Initially, people thought that only as many as flowed up could end up flowing back. But no, it was decided that as many could flowback as Eagle pilots that held AA numbers. And that was over 600! So, you had AA guys and TWA guys flow back to Eagle, and the mess ensued.

115 flowed up, more wanted to flow but couldn't because AMR is AMRon. Over 600 flowed back and the Eagle pilots got screwed.

Lessons to be learned there. At this point, Compass and Mesaba NEEDS to be in attendance to these sorts of Delta/NWA meetings. It affects everyone.... mainline potential flowbacks, and flowthroughs.

But if history is any lesson, many more flowbacks than flowthroughs. So get those CP and XJ guys sitting in on these meetings with the big Delta.

 

[~~~^~~~]

PCL_128:

My fellow Jeffersonian, the regional MEC's did finally get the right to negotiate with mainline management. Comair binds their parent, Delta. ASA binds their parent, SkyWest.

That's what most of the fight was over ... the chance to get our Reps at the table with those who had operational control over our flying.

It took a long time, but finally ALPA came around to agree.

 

[PCL_128]

To clarify, I don't mean have a 'seat' at the table like AWAC has a seat on the board with US Airways. I simply meant a seat in attendance at that meeting. There's a huge difference between the two.

Both are unnecessary.

Careful, ya need to know the story of the Eagle flowthrough and flowback.

Remember who you're talking to, here. I'm well aware of what took place at Eagle. I know the "story." They agreed to the flowthrough/back in order to achieve the benefits, but they didn't like the negative consequences when the industry took a turn for the worse. Too bad, so sad. As a certain CEO used to say, "a contract is a contract."

Lessons to be learned there. At this point, Compass and Mesaba NEEDS to be in attendance to these sorts of Delta/NWA meetings. It affects everyone.... mainline potential flowbacks, and flowthroughs.

But if history is any lesson, many more flowbacks than flowthroughs. So get those CP and XJ guys sitting in on these meetings with the big Delta.

The Compass and Mesaba pilots already have their flowthrough/back agreements. There is nothing that involves them at the table. If flowbacks happen, then they happen. They have no place at the table with mainline management.

 

[Flyer1015]

Remember who you're talking to, here. I'm well aware of what took place at Eagle. I know the "story." They agreed to the flowthrough/back in order to achieve the benefits, but they didn't like the negative consequences when the industry took a turn for the worse. Too bad, so sad. As a certain CEO used to say, "a contract is a contract."

A contract is a contract, but Letter 3 end result came in arbitration. I'm sure most Eagle folks would have thought that only as many that flowed up would be allowed to flow back. So roughly 115. But the arbitration ruling, as my understanding is, allowed as many flowbacks as Eagle had pilots with AA numbers. And that was over 600! So that many flowbacks came back.
So you have to be careful when you say "they didn't like the outcome when the industry took a turn for the worse." Well, "they" didn't know the arbitration ruling was going to be THAT bad. I don't think any Eagle pilot would have foreseen 600+ flowbacks. Yet, it happened anyway. That wasn't part of the original flowthough agreement, but through arbitration ruling on Letter 3, that's what happened. At least, that's my understanding of it. I'm pretty sure that's right, but maybe some senior Eagle pilot can correct me or confirm me. eaglefly?

The Compass and Mesaba pilots already have their flowthrough/back agreements. There is nothing that involves them at the table. If flowbacks happen, then they happen. They have no place at the table with mainline management.

It's to prevent another Eagle like unfairness of a flowback. Flowback language needs to be CLEARLY spelled out and agreed upon by both sides. Eagle got the short end of the stick. So how many can flow back at Compass? As many pilots that flowed up to Compass, or as many pilots that have accepted a flowthrough for a future class date?
Consider what Eagle went through. I would even go as far as saying that Eagle got hosed with the ruling of how many flowbacks can come to Eagle.
My point is that the flowback and flowthrough situation warrants a conversation at the table.

 

[PCL_128]

A contract is a contract, but Letter 3 end result came in arbitration.

Taking issues to arbitration is part of having a contract. I didn't see the Eagle pilots screaming bloody murder when they agreed to the flowthrough in the first place because of ambiguous language. They were just all too happy to have their flowthrough.

It's to prevent another Eagle like unfairness of a flowback.

None of these agreements are forced upon anyone. The regional pilot groups got to approve them. Nothing has changed here. The merger doesn't change the regional pilots' agreement to the flowthroughs. They have no place whatsoever in sitting at the table to discuss the JPWA.

Eagle got the short end of the stick.

Eagle got the language that they agreed to. Guess they should have been more concerned with language in their agreement than getting that "coveted" AMR seniority number.

 

[Bdfg1]

Remember who you're talking to, here.

Yes the pft expert who does not rely on facts and talks out of both sides of his mouth. :laugh:

We all remember.

See ya!

 

[JoeMerchant]

If there's a lesson to be learned from the Eagle situation, it's that you should get the hell out of the commuters as quickly as possible and forget the idea of making a career from a damned sub-contractor. Most of those senior Eagle guys could be furlough-safe at the majors right now if they had left when they had the chance, but instead, they're waiting to find out if AMR manages to sell off their company and cuts their flying. Don't be a regional lifer!

Herndon's village idiot speaks again....If you actually try to make a career out of half of the domestic US flying....you are an idiot accoding to our PFT128 ALPA cheerleader....He is so much smarter than those of us who are actually trying to make a career and enjoying it here....He is so much better off at Air Tran than we are.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Eagle got the language that they agreed to. Guess they should have been more concerned with language in their agreement than getting that "coveted" AMR seniority number.

For once PCL_128 speaks the truth....Let this be a lesson to the regional folks....Don't believe the flowthrough hype.....It is simply job protection for the mainline guys....Single list or just keep it separate....Forget these lame flowthrough schemes....

 

[Flyer1015]

Taking issues to arbitration is part of having a contract.

It should never have gone to arbitration in the first place.

I didn't see the Eagle pilots screaming bloody murder when they agreed to the flowthrough in the first place because of ambiguous language. They were just all too happy to have their flowthrough.

Had they known how unfairly they were gonna get screwed due to the APA on a hellbent mission, they wouldn't have agreed to it. APA has been pretty arrogant against the Eagle pilot group.

Eagle got the language that they agreed to. Guess they should have been more concerned with language in their agreement than getting that "coveted" AMR seniority number.

They "coveted" seniority number meant nothing.

The DEAL called for "every 2 pilots hired at AA, 1 should be a flowthrough." That every-2-for-1 agreement NEVER was obeyed!

AMR, being the beotch they are, didn't want to pay for two training events involved with getting a flowthrough to mainline, and a replacement for that flowthrough.

That is what pis$ed off Eagle pilots.... the fact their flowthrough was never respected in terms of what was agreed upon.

Why didn't the flowthrough get respected, and flow 1 Eagle pilot for every 2 spots open at AA?

And yet, when it came to screwing the Eagle pilots, APA had no problems in getting things their way in arbitration.

None of these agreements are forced upon anyone. The regional pilot groups got to approve them. Nothing has changed here. The merger doesn't change the regional pilots' agreement to the flowthroughs. They have no place whatsoever in sitting at the table to discuss the JPWA.

[/quote]

I point to the Eagle system. Their flowthrough agreement was written, yet not respected with the 1-to-2 rule. It was agreed that for every 2 newhire spots available, 1 would be a Eagle flowthrough. That never happened.

So, my point is that CP and XJ should be at those meetings to make sure everyone is on the same page with the flowthrough/flowback issues.

It affects both the major NWA/DAL guys, and it affects the CP/XJ guys.

 

[PCL_128]

It should never have gone to arbitration in the first place.



Had they known how unfairly they were gonna get screwed due to the APA on a hellbent mission, they wouldn't have agreed to it. APA has been pretty arrogant against the Eagle pilot group.



They "coveted" seniority number meant nothing.

The DEAL called for "every 2 pilots hired at AA, 1 should be a flowthrough." That every-2-for-1 agreement NEVER was obeyed!

AMR, being the beotch they are, didn't want to pay for two training events involved with getting a flowthrough to mainline, and a replacement for that flowthrough.

That is what pis$ed off Eagle pilots.... the fact their flowthrough was never respected in terms of what was agreed upon.

Why didn't the flowthrough get respected, and flow 1 Eagle pilot for every 2 spots open at AA?

And yet, when it came to screwing the Eagle pilots, APA had no problems in getting things their way in arbitration.
quote]

I point to the Eagle system. Their flowthrough agreement was written, yet not respected with the 1-to-2 rule. It was agreed that for every 2 newhire spots available, 1 would be a Eagle flowthrough. That never happened.

So, my point is that CP and XJ should be at those meetings to make sure everyone is on the same page with the flowthrough/flowback issues.

It affects both the major NWA/DAL guys, and it affects the CP/XJ guys.

All of this can be answered with one simple word: arbitration. You may not like the arbitrator's decision, but he looked at all of the contract language, all of the negotiations notes, all of the submitted legal briefs, and determined that you are wrong. It's just that simple. Such is life. You can claim that it "never should have gone to arbitration" all you want, but that's not how things work in the real world. Your PCL/CJC scope issue never should have had to go to arbitration either, but....

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Herndon's village idiot speaks again....

So now we'll hear from the rjdc village idiot.

If you actually try to make a career out of half of the domestic US flying....you are an idiot accoding to our PFT128 ALPA cheerleader....

Oh priceless, hey ****************************** bag, didn't asa used to be pft?

He is so much smarter than those of us who are actually trying to make a career and enjoying it here....

Translation: I can't get out of my present job, I'm stuck, so I'll form an organization that will get me what I want through a lawsuit!

He is so much better off at Air Tran than we are.....

Looks like he's better at Air Tran than you are at ASA. With all the cuts coming at the regionals, its ok to be nervous joey!