UNITED changing name to United Express

[VWDrvr21]

Why is a FO from another airline ENTITLED to a Captain position at mine? If they want a job flying, They can start in the right seat like anybody else would.

 

[hmmm]

Please tell me of a time when a major helped give access to jets to a regional that didn't have them before

and would not have had them at all,

but because a mainline helped the regional get access to these new jets that they would not have had otherwise

the mainline in the deal had the regional as part of contract give those seats to the mainline furloughs

and when times got better, older pilots retired, and the fuloughs were recalled there were more seats now available to the pilots at the regional that would not have been there before.

Has this happened? Just asking? Not saying anything is good or bad. Just don't spend my entire life learning about contract history.

 

[Skaff]

Getting furloughed is one thing....however getting furloughed because your company is contracting the flying out to the lowest or lower bidder....totally different. If those planes that get more flying have United colors on them, and are the reason the UA pilots are getting laid off.....they should get dibs on the LEFT SEAT.....the only reason your flying that RJ around is because of mainline....its not your flying, it belongs to United.

That's Fine. If mainline wants to fly these dammed RJ's they can go buy their own. If mainline wants to give the flying away due to poor buisness practices, you are entitled to nothing. If we allow you to be in the right seat, you should be grateful, but with your attitude you probably wont be hired. Lets hope that for your sake and for the industries sake that there is no furlogh and no regional growth.

 

[ReverseSensing]

That's Fine. If mainline wants to fly these dammed RJ's they can go buy their own. If mainline wants to give the flying away due to poor buisness practices, you are entitled to nothing.

Precisely, unless it is negotiated between ALL parties, including the regional pilots, in which case, I would hope those regional pilots get something out of it. Mainline might own the flying, but they don't own the regional seniority list. Neither do mainline pilots, unless it is specifically bargained for from the pilots who do own it.

Lets hope that for your sake and for the industries sake that there is no furlogh and no regional growth.

Let's hope for everyone's sake that their are no furloughs (but it seems likely). Whether or not there is regional growth (with the exception of what little stand alone, at-risk flying is done at the regional level), is entirely up to mainline management and mainline pilots.

 

[GogglesPisano]

. If we allow you to be in the right seat, you should be grateful, but with your attitude you probably wont be hired. .

How exactly do you not get hired at a regional these days? Do you have to die on the way out of the interview?

 

[ReverseSensing]

How exactly do you not get hired at a regional these days? Do you have to die on the way out of the interview?

Or on the way in, or during.

 

[waveflyer]

How about this novel concept-- f*** the 'express' carrier and that division of seniority. These problems you are all voicing is why it NEVER should have happened in the first place. Any new jet: set a payrate and it's flown by UAL pilots. Period. What in god's name has to be done to learn this lesson? To furlough guys when a company is taking on new airplanes is so INSANE it's ridiculous. I can't even understand why the turboprops shouldn't be on the property...

 

[waveflyer]

Why is a FO from another airline ENTITLED to a Captain position at mine? If they want a job flying, They can start in the right seat like anybody else would.

First, you're an idiot.
2nd, they shouldn't
b/c "your" flying should never have been yours in the first place... you fly it to both you and the major airline pilot's mutual detriment... If you think long term- the entire premise behind 'express' carriers is about dividing up seniority and careers and keeping pay low...

That being said- it's not any "regional" pilot's fault. Mainline pilots sold you out- and didn't think long-term enough to know that they couldn't sell you out w/o affecting themselves as well...

SCOPE IS SACRED. Get Planes back on mainline lists... not the other way around.

 

[ReverseSensing]

How about this novel concept-- f*** the 'express' carrier and that division of seniority. These problems you are all voicing is why it NEVER should have happened in the first place.

I don't disagree with you, but that ship has sailed.

Any new jet: set a payrate and it's flown by UAL pilots. Period. ... I can't even understand why the turboprops shouldn't be on the property...

Fine. UAL can go out and buy or lease the aircraft, put it on their ticket and fly it with pilots on UAL's seniority list. Or, if someone else buys or leases the aircraft and puts it on their own ticket, UAL can negotiate for the rights you seek.

Mainline management and mainline pilots get nothing automatically for planes owned or leased by someone else and flown by pilots on some other seniority list. You don't like it? Prepare to negotiate. Or tell your management you'll burn it to the ground if they don't negotiate what you want for you. Matters not to me.

What in god's name has to be done to learn this lesson? To furlough guys when a company is taking on new airplanes is so INSANE it's ridiculous.

It is insane. Why did mainline pilots agree to such an arrangement? But since they did, we have a situation that reminds me of the old bumper sticker I had on my '74 VW van:

Ass, gas, or grass: no one rides for free.

 

[jonjuan]

I don't disagree with you, but that ship has sailed.



Fine. UAL can go out and buy or lease the aircraft, put it on their ticket and fly it with pilots on UAL's seniority list. Or, if someone else buys or leases the aircraft and puts it on their own ticket, UAL can negotiate for the rights you seek.

Mainline management and mainline pilots get nothing automatically for planes owned or leased by someone else and flown by pilots on some other seniority list. You don't like it? Prepare to negotiate. Or tell your management you'll burn it to the ground if they don't negotiate what you want for you. Matters not to me.



It is insane. Why did mainline pilots agree to such an arrangement? But since they did, we have a situation that reminds me of the old bumper sticker I had on my '74 VW van:

Ass, gas, or grass: no one rides for free.

Very unemotional response, RS. To sum your response up to waveflyer, it may not be logical, but it is what it is. What he/she's proposing is akin to a national seniority list-logical, but just ain't gonna happen.

 

[motch]

First... Scope

Second.... If an Express carrier is not willing to negoiate a J4J agreement like the old USAir deal then they don't get to participate in any potential growth that the express carriers might get.

Third... If If no Express carrier signs off on the deal, then I'll let the company go under.

At some point there has to be some ingegrity within out industry. If some of the regional airline pilots can't understand that their jobs are directly related to the mainline jobs then so be it.

Just like the old USAir J4J deal, this can be a win win situation for everyone involved.
If you are a Regional Capt at a participating carrier your seat and seniority position will be secured.
If you are a mid Senior FO, you may still see the upgrade with the arrival of new aircraft.
If you are a new FO, you will still have a job because there will be some growth at your carrier as opposed to reductions or at least there won't be any reduction of aircraft numbers if 50 seaters are swapped for 70 seaters.

Again, it can be a win win for everyone.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Yaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyy!!! More RJ's!!! Yayyyyyyyyyyyyy!!!

Do you mean those cute little regional jets? The Brazilian or the Canadian kind?

 

[CopilotDoug]

How exactly do you not get hired at a regional these days? Do you have to die on the way out of the interview?

:laugh: That's pretty good!

 

[BigShotXJTdrvr]

The CAL furloughs post 9-11 got jobs at XJT under terms of a flow-through/furlough-protection agreement that had been in place for years prior.

That agreement is dead and CAL pilots are in essentially the same position as any other major.

I have never thought anything was taken from me wrongfully. There was a written agreement and it was obeyed pretty much to the letter.

If these guys want to take jobs off the top now, there simply needs to be an equal exchange of some sort (none of this preferential interview bs). Or they need to tell their management to go shop for some RJs to add to the certificate.

 

[jonjuan]

Do you mean those cute little regional jets? The Brazilian or the Canadian kind?

I think now China has some in the works. Walmart jets. The smaller the jets these days, the more the job security. Gulfstreams and Learjets seem to offer the best job future today.

 

[saab fixr]

Hey Gr8dane
Im not a kid as a matter of fact i could be your daddy ! son if you have nothing to contribute then move on i can like others say what i like here get a life
I work for RAH and to be honest im happy with the way things are going for my company, thanks much and btw who needs main line pilots with there the world owes me!! The pilots at RAH have busted their butts to make things work out for us all and we appriecate it, and no im not a pilot thank god Some of you pilots need to get a attitude adjustment. If you havent noticed the world dont revolve around you !!

 

[CopilotDoug]

I think now China has some in the works. Walmart jets. The smaller the jets these days, the more the job security. Gulfstreams and Learjets seem to offer the best job future today.

China has an "RJ" which is pretty much a modernized DC-9

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACAC_ARJ21

If a country could compete with EMB's prices, it would be China...perhaps Russia as well.

 

[n757st]

Hey Gr8dane
Im not a kid as a matter of fact i could be your daddy ! son if you have nothing to contribute then move on i can like others say what i like here get a life
I work for RAH and to be honest im happy with the way things are going for my company, thanks much and btw who needs main line pilots with there the world owes me!! The pilots at RAH have busted their butts to make things work out for us all and we appriecate it, and no im not a pilot thank god Some of you pilots need to get a attitude adjustment. If you havent noticed the world dont revolve around you !!

Yeah, those RP guys sure busted their butts, I mean a contact without rig, overblock pay based on daily not leg to leg, lack of cancellation pay when you don't make a certain completion factor (good luck with that out of philly), and to boot, crap F.O. rates on an 86 seat aircraft. Thank god you guys busted your butt, its amazing with that contract that you got growth. My FAVORITE is your pilot that felt it necessary this week to tell me that he hoped he didn't get industry leading rates but rather only middle of the pack, that way they would keep growing... there you go champ, busting your butts again.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Actually, with the "hub & spoke" concept model this in not compatable with RJ's. It's just too expensive. The future will return to turboprops as UAL has been already looking into this. Other business models, like the TransAir and SWA model will still fly point to point and make money with narrow body Boeings and Airbusses.

 

[SKYWRJGUY]

It would be interesting to see how ALPA could justify serving two masters, exacting jobs for the mainline while usurping the senioirty and contract provisions at their represented regionals.

 

[Popeye0537]

Yeah, those RP guys sure busted their butts, I mean a contact without rig, overblock pay based on daily not leg to leg, lack of cancellation pay when you don't make a certain completion factor (good luck with that out of philly), and to boot, crap F.O. rates on an 86 seat aircraft. Thank god you guys busted your butt, its amazing with that contract that you got growth. My FAVORITE is your pilot that felt it necessary this week to tell me that he hoped he didn't get industry leading rates but rather only middle of the pack, that way they would keep growing... there you go champ, busting your butts again.

Wow are you bitter,

Lets clarify your spew.....

1) Post 9/11 contract
2)Over block from leg to leg
3)100% Cancellation pay/Completion factor 98.5%
4)FO rates in line with first year mainline rates...Delta being the exception.....they all suck
5)Highly doubt ANYONE would talk to you with your elitists attitude.
6)Thanks for your support!

 

[JoeMerchant]

It would be interesting to see how ALPA could justify serving two masters, exacting jobs for the mainline while usurping the senioirty and contract provisions at their represented regionals.

They can't.....the shirade will be over soon....

 

[n757st]

Wow are you bitter,

Lets clarify your spew.....

1) Post 9/11 contract
2)Over block from leg to leg
3)100% Cancellation pay/Completion factor 98.5%
4)FO rates in line with first year mainline rates...Delta being the exception.....they all suck
5)Highly doubt ANYONE would talk to you with your elitists attitude.
6)Thanks for your support!

Dude, not bitter, you have some good guys, and this tool was likely the exception rather then the rule, at least I hope, but its time guys like this grow a set and get paid what you are worth. Don't even try to justify your F.O. rates, they are no way in line with mainline numbers, they are crap. BTW, I do have something vested in your pay rates, you see my company bases our pay off an average of 5 regionals (including yours), then adds 3%, so if you get a raise, so do I. I will support you guys and march with you to get a better contract, but if this dude represents the majority of thought at your company, then you will be no better then mesa, because that is exactly the crap they pulled.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Dude, not bitter, you have some good guys, and this tool was likely the exception rather then the rule, at least I hope, but its time guys like this grow a set and get paid what you are worth. Don't even try to justify your F.O. rates, they are no way in line with mainline numbers, they are crap. BTW, I do have something vested in your pay rates, you see my company bases our pay off an average of 5 regionals (including yours), then adds 3%, so if you get a raise, so do I. I will support you guys and march with you to get a better contract, but if this dude represents the majority of thought at your company, then you will be no better then mesa, because that is exactly the crap they pulled.

n757st....Who do you work for?

 

[n757st]

n757st....Who do you work for?

AWAC, we have a whacked out contract that bases our pay on other regionals, thus the vigor from a lot of us to not have other companies "drop the ball". I am not trying to say that our FO rates are the best, though they are better then most, but we also do not fly an 86 seat jet around, when we did our rates were 45 - 55 dollars per hour, which while also crap, they are certainly much better then anything out there now. I am not trying to be elitist, I am just tired of seeing companys like Mesa and RP fly around with crappy contracts, because it hurts our negotiation position, and in our contract, can directly effect my pay. I assume you are at ASA, I was glad to see you guys got a decent contract and did not roll over, and our pay will go up as a result.. thank you.

 

[JoeMerchant]

AWAC, we have a whacked out contract that bases our pay on other regionals, thus the vigor from a lot of us to not have other companies "drop the ball". I am not trying to say that our FO rates are the best, though they are better then most, but we also do not fly an 86 seat jet around, when we did our rates were 45 - 55 dollars per hour, which while also crap, they are certainly much better then anything out there now. I am not trying to be elitist, I assume you are at ASA, I was glad to see you guys got a decent contract and did not roll over.

AWAC has always had one of the best contracts.....However you have also been penalized for that contract...much like CMR, ACA, and ALG/PDT.....It's not as simple as "not rolling over"....If we had a true union, we would have brand scope to protect those who "don't roll over"....and we would have transportability of seniority and contract minimums to protect those who "don't roll over".....

Mainline pilots are currently bidding rates that are lower than the old AWAC 146 rates............Not much of a union......

 

[n757st]

AWAC has always had one of the best contracts.....However you have also been penalized for that contract...much like CMR, ACA, and ALG/PDT.....It's not as simple as "not rolling over"....If we had a true union, we would have brand scope to protect those who "don't roll over"....and we would have transportability of seniority and contract minimums to protect those who "don't roll over".....

Mainline pilots are currently bidding rates that are lower than the old AWAC 146 rates............Not much of a union......

I couldn't agree with you more. That said, RP has an opportunity here, to raise the bar, a bar which NEEDS to be raised. Again, I will march with the RP guys to get them a better contract, but some of them (an granted this was an FO likely looking for an upgrade) just want the status quo, and it sucks that they do not realize its not just them embracing crappy wages, it affects EVERYONE. RP is making huge money right now, its time they demand their share.

The reason I reacted as I did was the statement that RP pilots "busted thier butts". Well, I couldn't agree more because with that contact they took it right in the rear end. Now its time to really they "bust your butts" and demand the contract that they deserve.

BTW, about the union, I have not been impressed with ALPA for a while, and its sad that due to us regional airlines that mainline pilots have to fly 100 seaters for often less then our regional rates, but I guess its still better then farming out bigger and bigger aircraft. The line had to be drawn, it should have been drawn a while ago.

 

[EMB170Pilot]

Sad but true, however I feel this time around if UAL does furlough (pretty sure we will but still an if) I will FIGHT hand and fist to secure LEFT seat jobs for our furloughed bubba's. We already have movement in that direction underway,

I'm all for this, just as long as you go below me on the senioirty list. I have to look out for me.

What you United pilots told me in the jumpseat was.

The 3 most important thing to a pilot are:

1. senority
2. senority
3. senority

 

[dooork]

AWAC, we have a whacked out contract that bases our pay on other regionals, thus the vigor from a lot of us to not have other companies "drop the ball". I am not trying to say that our FO rates are the best, though they are better then most, but we also do not fly an 86 seat jet around, when we did our rates were 45 - 55 dollars per hour, which while also crap, they are certainly much better then anything out there now. I am not trying to be elitist, I am just tired of seeing companys like Mesa and RP fly around with crappy contracts, because it hurts our negotiation position, and in our contract, can directly effect my pay. I assume you are at ASA, I was glad to see you guys got a decent contract and did not roll over, and our pay will go up as a result.. thank you.

Do you listen to your self? Instead of fighting for your contract you let the other guys do it!! then you have the balls to bitch when THEY drop the ball!

 

[n757st]

Do you listen to your self? Instead of fighting for your contract you let the other guys do it!! then you have the balls to bitch when THEY drop the ball!

We did fight for our contract... we have rig, trip touching vacation, and some of the best rates for 50 seat jets out there. One contingency in our contract is that we get a raise when you get a raise, so our pay will always be on top. All I am saying is get paid what you are worth and don't sell out for growth, but thats up to you guys... you could potentially have one of the best contracts out there and be respected, or you could be mesa, make your choice.