747 Splits in Two on T/O

[lionflyer]

I agree with you and waiting to see what the results will be after the investigation, but suggesting structural failure that causes an airplane to come to a stop in two pieces miraculously close to each other off the end of the runway... And because of it's age? Get a grip.

I got a good grip thank you. I was using that as an example to point out that we don't have any facts yet. Those birds are old and yes, their maintenance is excellent.

 

[embpic1]

Yes, and no. What other damage have the birds done to the wing ie the LED's and TE Flaps? Yes you have gone passed V1 but it doesn't mean the aircraft can fly. Tough choice, lessons to be learned and information culled through when it is released by the NTSB.

Ok. So you are saying you agree with me.

Hell, in my example I bet you would be under Vmcg. You would probably loose directional control if two on one side quit. V1 only gurantees Vmcg for the loss of an outboard engine, not both out on one side. The point is, two out on one side after V1 but before Vr is a real bad place to be.

 

[FBN0223]

The point is, two out on one side after V1 but before Vr is a real bad place to be.

....and very unlikely

 

[#%&@$!]

Look familiar? It appears that the mid fuselage on the classic is signigicantly stressed in an RTO (max braking?) even without a runway excursion.

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Unti...T&photo_nr=67&prev_id=0764263&next_id=0763398

 

[Quimby]

Look familiar? It appears that the mid fuselage on the classic is signigicantly stressed in an RTO (max braking?) even without a runway excursion.

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Unti...T&photo_nr=67&prev_id=0764263&next_id=0763398

the collapsed nosewheel can't help.

 

[avbug]

Look familiar? It appears that the mid fuselage on the classic is signigicantly stressed in an RTO (max braking?) even without a runway excursion.

No. It doesn't look familiar. Aside from the fact that it's not in the same place, it's a different aircraft, different incident, and has no bearing on this incident.

Given that no information is available thus far, given that many of the personnel who are to be involved in the investigation are just now arriving, and given that the aircraft is being defueled for the investigation to get underway in earnest tomorrow...a picture taken of "airliners.net" doesn't do much to give any insight whatsoever regarding this incident. Especially as neither you, nor anyone else here knows if the aircraft was airborne, if the takeoff was rejected, or anything at all for that matter, regarding what actually occured.

Rather than speculating based on what you see in a picture of another airplane (different airplane, differnt location, different circumstances, different terrain)...stick to the facts and wait for some to come out.

 

[dojetdriver]

No. It doesn't look familiar. Aside from the fact that it's not in the same place, it's a different aircraft, different incident, and has no bearing on this incident.

Given that no information is available thus far, given that many of the personnel who are to be involved in the investigation are just now arriving, and given that the aircraft is being defueled for the investigation to get underway in earnest tomorrow...a picture taken of "airliners.net" doesn't do much to give any insight whatsoever regarding this incident. Especially as neither you, nor anyone else here knows if the aircraft was airborne, if the takeoff was rejected, or anything at all for that matter, regarding what actually occured.

Rather than speculating based on what you see in a picture of another airplane (different airplane, differnt location, different circumstances, different terrain)...stick to the facts and wait for some to come out.

Wow, kinda harsh, isn't it? I think all he was getting at was that a 747 classic could potentially go through a lot of stress in various situations. And one of the areas that might see the most amount of stress (for whatever reason) in the area pointed out.

Maybe, if you abort a takeoff, or are just plain hauling a$$ and go offroading in the process (or whatever happened here), maybe that is the first area that is going get compromised structurally.

 

[avbug]

Wow, kinda harsh, isn't it? I think all he was getting at was that a 747 classic could potentially go through a lot of stress in various situations. And one of the areas that might see the most amount of stress (for whatever reason) in the area pointed out.

Harsh, no. Is there a similiarity between the damage in the picture, and the Kalitta mishap? No. Is the location on the aircraft the same? No. Why even compare the two?

No doubt the aircraft experienced stress. That may account for the damage (don't you think?). You do well for stating the obvious.

What the picture and it's introduction does is misdirect; it's superfluous and irrelevant to the conversation, and to this mishap. Two damaged airplanes, and that's the only real similiarity. What the poster did was introduce a picture and suggest there's a trend...except that the fracture in the fuselage isn't even in the same place...what trend? Familiar? No. Not even close.

maybe that is the first area that is going get compromised structurally.

If it were the same area, it might be relevant...but it's not.

 

[dojetdriver]

Harsh, no. Is there a similiarity between the damage in the picture, and the Kalitta mishap? No. Is the location on the aircraft the same? No. Why even compare the two?

No doubt the aircraft experienced stress. That may account for the damage (don't you think?). You do well for stating the obvious.

What the picture and it's introduction does is misdirect; it's superfluous and irrelevant to the conversation, and to this mishap. Two damaged airplanes, and that's the only real similiarity. What the poster did was introduce a picture and suggest there's a trend...except that the fracture in the fuselage isn't even in the same place...what trend? Familiar? No. Not even close.



If it were the same area, it might be relevant...but it's not.

If you don't relax, you might soil your drawers.

 

[avbug]

I'm quite relaxed. If you don't want to hear the answer, don't ask the question.

 

[dutch747]

Rather than speculating based on what you see in a picture of another airplane (different airplane, differnt location, different circumstances, different terrain)...stick to the facts and wait for some to come out.

I'm going to speculate on what I've heard thus far and pictures of 747's I have seen on airliners.net and speculate that maybe they had a dual engine failure past V1, went off the runway, and back on, knowing the acft was not flyable, did a damn good job of getting it stopped without injuring anyone on the acft or on the ground. I am further going to speculate that fire shot from Connie's a$$ when he found out about it.

Just speculating....

 

[embpic1]

I am further going to speculate that fire shot from Connie's a$$ when he found out about it.

Just speculating....

No need to speculate about that.

 

[bombinha]

I think BRU authorities will take in consideration those geese on rwy choice next time.

 

[EuroWheenie]

Geese? I live here and have never heard of geese. Am a member of our Safety Review Group, and one of the agenda items is always bird strikes. BRU is not a place prone to bird strikes.

Went over today to have a close-up look at the aircraft. There is a roughly 5 feet drop on the overrun area, it has been estimated the aeroplane were on the fast side of 60kts when it went over that drop. That'll kill any fuselage, and I'd venture the suggestion this is what caused the break-up.

Furthermore, heard through the rumours mill that tower saw flames shooting out of one or more engines during the take-off roll and reported same over the radio to the crew. At the point where the information was passed on, according to the opinion of the air traffic controllers the aircraft would most likely be past V1. Based either on the info passed from tower, information from instruments or "seat of pants", or both, a RTO was called for and carried out.

One could argue it was a successful RTO as nobody was killed. The rest is just bent or broken metal - replaceable.

 

[FBN0223]

Does Connie still does his own engine overhauls in Oscoda, Michgan?

 

[LR25]

Does Connie still does his own engine overhauls in Oscoda, Michgan?

Our motors are built by NASA. Because of our nature of flying and extreme conditions we operate. We get very special training to be able to handle them.

Thanks for your concern.

 

[The_Russian]

Rather than speculating based on what you see in a picture of another airplane (different airplane, differnt location, different circumstances, different terrain)...stick to the facts and wait for some to come out.

Why are you upset that this has prompted a discussion? Are you aware that this is an internet message board?

Discussing and speculating the events surrounding an incident is not at all an unprofessional thing to do. In fact, aircraft accident investigators must make assumptions and use speculation to lead them to the facts. We can refer to these assumptions and speculations as a process of thought that leads them to their final report. This also helps us rule out what is not fact. If you think that the NTSB doesn't sit around a table for months after an accident or incident and speculate or make assumptions based upon fact, then you are down right crazy.

Our discussion of this incident might lead to one or more of our lives being saved in the near future. Try to remember that when you choose to participate since you have already made your own assumptions and speculations on the incident thus far.

 

[se1776]

Captain America screwed up.

 

[#%&@$!]

Avbug - by introducing the photo and comparison I was only suggesting tht an RTO introduces a large amount of stress to the airframe. The point was made to counter any argument earlier in this thread that age of the aircrarft was the cause of the breakup. If you thought I was claiming to have solved this investigation you were reading way too much between my lines.

For those who think age was a factor - I'd suggest avoiding NW's DC-9 fleet, which is older that Kalitta's classic fleet with way more cycles.

 

[belchfire]

No, I'm talking about Belch, he's on the -400 as of recently...

Guys, thanks for the concern...W2B, we have to get together sometime when the rules allow you an adult beverage or three!

No, was not me, but the crew is okay...

Unlike Countbat-you see, he doesn't so much have need of a career since the frontal lobotomy!

I especially liked the way you managed to blame the POTUS for this also...GWB has time in his busy day to make sure that Connie stays in business. I bet he wakes up in the middle of the night worrying about it!

Yeah, right! If he gave a shart about any airline fuel wouldn't cost what it does!

Give us a break Countbutt...

Go back to your conspiricy books and leave the professionals alone, or I'll get Ozzy to finish off the lobotomy and bite your head off!

The dust hasn't settled yet and the online aviation wizzards have come out from under their rocks to dazzle themselves in the radiant glow of their own enormous wild arse speculation and fingerpointing...what a crock of fecal matter!