Others value ALPA more than many of its members

[DashTrash400]

I'd get rid of ALPA as a bargaining agent and leave it up to individual pilots to negotiate their own worth.

Abso-f'in-lutely. I have a 100% on-time departure and arrival rate, I never carry one pound of fuel more than is required, I tough it out when I'm sick, and I never write up the airplane unless it's in a maintenance base. Airline managers would pay BIG bucks to hire me and upgrade me out of seniority!

</sarcasm>

Moron.

 

[PCL_128]

Abso-f'in-lutely. I have a 100% on-time departure and arrival rate, I never carry one pound of fuel more than is required, I tough it out when I'm sick, and I never write up the airplane unless it's in a maintenance base. Airline managers would pay BIG bucks to hire me and upgrade me out of seniority!

</sarcasm>

Moron.

He's not a moron, he's just blinded by his own anger over the situation he's in because of his carrier going under. If he calmed down and really thought it through he'd realize how ridiculous it is.

 

[PCL_128]

Maybe if you got involved AOPA would have been a better organization.

Maybe so, but advancing general aviation isn't exactly a priority of mine.

 

[pipe]

deleted

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I'd get rid of ALPA as a bargaining agent and leave it up to individual pilots to negotiate their own worth. You can't tell me that if Delta goes under, your skill goes from being worth 100k a year to being worth 30k just because you had to start at another carrier.

You can thank ALPA for that one.

Did you have a problem with the seniority system before? I never heard you complain about your seniority protections?

Its not ALPA. Its gov't and those who control the distribution of power and wealth. And its the RLA.

Smart people place blame where it belongs.

You sound like that guy that has a decent girlfriend... then gets dump and all of a sudden she is a worthless b!tch...

How did a buddy of mine get to leave a 130k a year job flying a G for one company and get hired by another flying the same type of plane for starting pay of 155k without utilizing ALPA's superior bargaining skills?

So.... if you lose your job at Aloha making good enough money.... what is to stop you from getting that 155K G job?


Let me guess...... ALPA.

 

[Freight Dog]

So.... if you lose your job at Aloha making good enough money.... what is to stop you from getting that 155K G job?


Let me guess...... ALPA.

No, but ALPA has precluded me from getting another 100k job flying a B-737 at least in this country... you know... continuing on, not skipping a beat from what I was making before. You know, you can bid ahead of me, you can deal with seniority all you want... but pay me what several thousand hours in 737 are worth... oh, no wait.. SENIORITY, right?

Oh, and DashTrash400? I turned down a street captain job flying a Q400 simply because it wasn't paying enough. So did several of my other DHC-8 typed friends... why? They weren't paying enough.

Moron? Brother... when you figure out that your value as a pilot goes from 100k to 30k the minute your airline goes under, or you decide to change jobs... what does that tell you? Uhhh.... seniority... uhhhh.... yeah!! SENIORITY... that's it.... uhhhh yeah! Or does it tell you there's something wrong with this system?

On the other side, our corporate flying buddies don't have this limitation placed on their careers. Think it benefits them? Or do you think our seniority system benefits us better?

Think about it...

 

[aewanabe]

Maybe so, but advancing general aviation isn't exactly a priority of mine.

And why not? AOPA is VERY imperfect, but there is no other organization working to keep it possible to go fly a Cub or 152 around without European-style regulation and costs.

 

[Freight Dog]

He's not a moron, he's just blinded by his own anger over the situation he's in because of his carrier going under. If he calmed down and really thought it through he'd realize how ridiculous it is.

PCL... thanks for the defense.

You know, it really takes something like this happening to you to stop and think about things.

Thankfully, I'm only in my early 30's. I think about our old guys - in their mid to late 50's.

20000 - 25000 hours total time, 15000-20000 hours of PIC in 737's, and the best they can hope for in this country is 30k as an FO in a 737 if they want to stay in this industry, or 20k if they fly a regional jet. Their only choice that will actually pay them what they are worth is going overseas.

Don't you think it's wrong? If so, how do you correct it while protecting others at the same time?

 

[PHXFLYR]

Does AOPA negotiate CBA's?

How would you improve ALPA's baragaining abilities?

diregard post....thanks


PHXFLYR

 

[AC560]

If so, how do you correct it while protecting others at the same time?

I would work on fixing social security and bringing peace to the Middle East first, much easier tasks.

 

[SaturnPilot]

No, but ALPA has precluded me from getting another 100k job flying a B-737 at least in this country... you know... continuing on, not skipping a beat from what I was making before. You know, you can bid ahead of me, you can deal with seniority all you want... but pay me what several thousand hours in 737 are worth... oh, no wait.. SENIORITY, right?

I agree with you that the pay cut taken for first year wages somewhere is ridiculous, but I don't think ALPA is solely to blame for that. You could easily get hired at a non-alpa 737 carrier and face the same issue.

The real problem is that when negotiating contracts, PILOTS need to make a stand for higher wages at the lower end of the longevity scale, rather than have such a steep curve requiring you to live on food stamp wages even though you are obviously an experienced professional. I believe the situation would be the same whether ALPA is representing a company, or some other union is representing the company...either way, the pilots of that company and that company alone make those decisions.

Advocating being non-union and representing yourself would lead to a profession I would not want to be a part of. As someone already pointed out, we would all feel forced to never delay any flights, refuse airplanes, ask for more fuel, etc.

 

[CopilotDoug]

PFT128:Nothing but a tool used by business jet owners to advance their own agenda.
Let me guess, PFT128, you're one of those clowns blaming the business jets for the clogged ATC system, right?

PFT128:He's not a moron, he's just blinded by his own anger over the situation he's in because of his carrier going under.
We don't all come from wealthy backgrounds where we can afford to pay for our first jobs. Some people are trying to save for a retirement where they won't have to live in section 8 project housing. Not everyone can supplement there lifestyles with Mommy and Daddy's money. I can understand why FreightDog might be upset. What a profession.

 

[AC560]

The real problem is that when negotiating contracts, PILOTS need to make a stand for higher wages at the lower end of the longevity scale, rather than have such a steep curve requiring you to live on food stamp wages even though you are obviously an experienced professional.

That is the flaw in seniority based schemes. There is no advantage for senior people to provide incentives to junior people. To the contrary it is usually easy to get senior people to screw junior people in exchange for some sort of bread crumb.

I believe the situation would be the same whether ALPA is representing a company, or some other union is representing the company...either way, the pilots of that company and that company alone make those decisions.

Pay scales for corporate pilots would seem to be indicative otherwise.

 

[SaturnPilot]

That is the flaw in seniority based schemes. There is no advantage for senior people to provide incentives to junior people. To the contrary it is usually easy to get senior people to screw junior people in exchange for some sort of bread crumb.

I agree, but what is the answer? If we get rid of the seniority system, will we all have to be buddies of the cp's to upgrade, etc?

Pay scales for corporate pilots would seem to be indicative otherwise.

Corporate pay scales are not high simply because ALPA does not represent them. A large amount of pilots prefer airline flying, want to fly widebody international, etc...therefore corporate jobs have to keep their wages high in order to attract pilots to stay there rather than to go to the airlines.

 

[AC560]

I agree, but what is the answer? If we get rid of the seniority system, will we all have to be buddies of the cp's to upgrade, etc?

I would guess you would have to advance on the merits of your skill and your ability to interact with others. Same as every other profession in the world (lawyers, doctors, business executives).

Corporate pay scales are not high simply because ALPA does not represent them. A large amount of pilots prefer airline flying, want to fly widebody international, etc...therefore corporate jobs have to keep their wages high in order to attract pilots to stay there rather than to go to the airlines.

I see so in other words airline pay scales are low because pilots trade their salary so they can fly widebody international and low quality of life. Where corporate pilots instead focus on salary and generally higher quality of life. Makes perfect sense to me.

The reality is airline pay scales are low because there is no competition, and the unions created that. Once a pilot signs onto an airline it can do whatever it wants to him, he is beholden to it for his salary (see post above concerning $70k drop per annum salary). Seniority has made it so the pilots need the airline more then the airline needs the pilots, when logically it should be reversed.

In a more market driven system airlines would have to pay more to recruit and you would see a lot of lateral movement. Instead you make a decision in your early 20's and pray to God it was the right one 45yrs later. The airline doesn't care because it wins no matter what, the unions stack the odds in its favor.

 

[SaturnPilot]

I would guess you would have to advance on the merits of your skill and your ability to interact with others. Same as every other profession in the world (lawyers, doctors, business executives).

this would lead to pilots risking safety to get flights out on time, taking minimum fuel, hesitating to refuse an a/c for maintenance purposes, etc. Airline management is generally not smart/qualified enough to play fair in this scenario.

I see so in other words airline pay scales are low because pilots trade their salary so they can fly widebody international and low quality of life. Where corporate pilots instead focus on salary and generally higher quality of life. Makes perfect sense to me.

no, I'm saying that because more pilots tend to flock to the airline side, the market wages of corporate pilots are forced to go up in order to make the position more attractive.

The reality is airline pay scales are low because there is no competition, and the unions created that. Once a pilot signs onto an airline it can do whatever it wants to him, he is beholden to it for his salary (see post above concerning $70k drop per annum salary). Seniority has made it so the pilots need the airline more then the airline needs the pilots, when logically it should be reversed.

In a more market driven system airlines would have to pay more to recruit and you would see a lot of lateral movement. Instead you make a decision in your early 20's and pray to God it was the right one 45yrs later. The airline doesn't care because it wins no matter what, the unions stack the odds in its favor.

I agree with you about the problems with the seniority system, but going non-union would be a disaster in the airline industry. As we have seen with skybus, there is simply a high supply of pilots willing to fly for the airlines for practically nothing. Why would United have any reason to keep a 747 captain around who has a 70% on time record when they could hire a Skybus pilot and put him in that slot out of seniority?

Rather than eliminate the seniority system, it would be better if all pilots would fight for higher wages on the lower end of the longevity scales...but, if you know of a way to get pilots to fight for someone else's pay, I will buy the first round!

:beer:

 

[AC560]

this would lead to pilots risking safety to get flights out on time, taking minimum fuel, hesitating to refuse an a/c for maintenance purposes, etc. Airline management is generally not smart/qualified enough to play fair in this scenario.

This is a doubly ignorant statement in the sense you insult generally every non-union member of an airline and the ability of a PIC to ensure the safety of his flight. If ALPA is the only thing keeping the skies safe, heaven help us.

no, I'm saying that because more pilots tend to flock to the airline side, the market wages of corporate pilots are forced to go up in order to make the position more attractive.

See the Frontier Pilots take pay cut thread. Management doesn't care if the airline sinks or swims they will laterally move for equal or greater pay. The pilots however need the airline to survive to ensure their way of life. Airline unions are a paper tiger which largely still exist today to benefit management. They are an effective means allowing the airlines to in a sense place a large swathe of their work force into indentured service.

Corporate pilots make more money because they are not tied to their company. Hiring and training a pilot is a major expense for a company (as is recurrent). It is in the interest of that company to keep the pilot, not let him go to the competition. With the airlines, seniority (pay scale) ensures the pilot staying. Corporate uses money to keep the pilot secure.

Why would United have any reason to keep a 747 captain around who has a 70% on time record when they could hire a Skybus pilot and put him in that slot out of seniority?

If the Skybus pilot could perform better why not (many of those pilots were high time with major airline experiance)? There are numerous ways to improve efficiency/profitability without a compromise to safety (insert joke about JetBlue pilots cleaning airplane) why do yo continually link the two? Would you got to the heart surgeon with the most seniority but most deaths or the one who while only 10yrs in the profession has a spotless record and numerous professional accolades? I think we all know the answer to that.

Rather than eliminate the seniority system, it would be better if all pilots would fight for higher wages on the lower end of the longevity scales...but, if you know of a way to get pilots to fight for someone else's pay, I will buy the first round!

When you only accept one path to your goal you eliminate a lot of other options. Why not instead focus on higher pilot pay, better working conditions, greater job security, etc. with no preconceived requirements. Your problem is you can't accept the possibility of other solutions.

 

[SaturnPilot]

This is a doubly ignorant statement in the sense you insult generally every non-union member of an airline and the ability of a PIC to ensure the safety of his flight. If ALPA is the only thing keeping the skies safe, heaven help us.

I never said ALPA was the only thing keeping us safe, nor did I say that non-union pilots cannot operate safely. However, if every airline were non-union and management everywhere could fire a pilot at will, and you think that they would think twice about firing a pilot with a less than perfect on time record, etc, you are dreaming.

Corporate pilots make more money because they are not tied to their company. Hiring and training a pilot is a major expense for a company (as is recurrent). It is in the interest of that company to keep the pilot, not let him go to the competition. With the airlines, seniority (pay scale) ensures the pilot staying. Corporate uses money to keep the pilot secure.

agreed, but with 10,000 pilots lining up to fly 747 left seat for 60K, a company would be able to hire and fire as they please while still saving money by not paying another pilot 200K per year.

If the Skybus pilot could perform better why not (many of those pilots were high time with major airline experiance)?

are you kidding? You actually think it's good for airlines like Skybus to exists paying pilots less to fly an Airbus than a CRJ?

There are numerous ways to improve efficiency/profitability without a compromise to safety (insert joke about JetBlue pilots cleaning airplane) why do yo continually link the two?

what are you talking about? Show me one of my posts where I have mentioned jetblue.

Would you got to the heart surgeon with the most seniority but most deaths or the one who while only 10yrs in the profession has a spotless record and numerous professional accolades? I think we all know the answer to that.

luckily heart surgeons do well in their careers by being good at their job. Would you want to go to the heart surgeon who is in his position because he sucks up to the hospital director, cuts costs by ordering less testing, works while fatugued so he can get ahead, etc?

When you only accept one path to your goal you eliminate a lot of other options. Why not instead focus on higher pilot pay, better working conditions, greater job security, etc. with no preconceived requirements. Your problem is you can't accept the possibility of other solutions.

again, what are you talking about? I asked for solutions earlier in this thread. I then mentioned the same thing you just mentioned about raising pay at the bottom of the longevity scale to eliminate the "one path" problem. You mention focusing on greater job security, but I fail to see how being non-union equates to greater job security.

 

[BigMeat]

First of all I will not become a professional @ss kisser to upgrade. I know some of the corporate guys are pretty good at it. We pay the price of going back to crappy pay when we have to move to another company. It sucks, I know. However I know I will not be passed up for captain upgrade because I wasnt buddy buddy with someone. Or because I dont have to risk my life and those of my passengers to look good in front of management. No thank you. I will continue to pay my ALPA dues and work on making it more effective. How many other trade unions are trying to fight cabatage still? Teamsters? TWU? How about foriegn ownership? AOPA? Some people are so out of touch. Im glad you Skybus lovers are still a minority.

 

[AC560]

How many other trade unions are trying to fight cabatage still? Teamsters? TWU? How about foriegn ownership? AOPA? Some people are so out of touch.

You and Don Quixote keep tilting at those windmills. Hopefully your story ends happier then his and Sancho's.