Others value ALPA more than many of its members

[SaturnPilot]

No, but ALPA has precluded me from getting another 100k job flying a B-737 at least in this country... you know... continuing on, not skipping a beat from what I was making before. You know, you can bid ahead of me, you can deal with seniority all you want... but pay me what several thousand hours in 737 are worth... oh, no wait.. SENIORITY, right?

I agree with you that the pay cut taken for first year wages somewhere is ridiculous, but I don't think ALPA is solely to blame for that. You could easily get hired at a non-alpa 737 carrier and face the same issue.

The real problem is that when negotiating contracts, PILOTS need to make a stand for higher wages at the lower end of the longevity scale, rather than have such a steep curve requiring you to live on food stamp wages even though you are obviously an experienced professional. I believe the situation would be the same whether ALPA is representing a company, or some other union is representing the company...either way, the pilots of that company and that company alone make those decisions.

Advocating being non-union and representing yourself would lead to a profession I would not want to be a part of. As someone already pointed out, we would all feel forced to never delay any flights, refuse airplanes, ask for more fuel, etc.

 

[CopilotDoug]

PFT128:Nothing but a tool used by business jet owners to advance their own agenda.
Let me guess, PFT128, you're one of those clowns blaming the business jets for the clogged ATC system, right?

PFT128:He's not a moron, he's just blinded by his own anger over the situation he's in because of his carrier going under.
We don't all come from wealthy backgrounds where we can afford to pay for our first jobs. Some people are trying to save for a retirement where they won't have to live in section 8 project housing. Not everyone can supplement there lifestyles with Mommy and Daddy's money. I can understand why FreightDog might be upset. What a profession.

 

[AC560]

The real problem is that when negotiating contracts, PILOTS need to make a stand for higher wages at the lower end of the longevity scale, rather than have such a steep curve requiring you to live on food stamp wages even though you are obviously an experienced professional.

That is the flaw in seniority based schemes. There is no advantage for senior people to provide incentives to junior people. To the contrary it is usually easy to get senior people to screw junior people in exchange for some sort of bread crumb.

I believe the situation would be the same whether ALPA is representing a company, or some other union is representing the company...either way, the pilots of that company and that company alone make those decisions.

Pay scales for corporate pilots would seem to be indicative otherwise.

 

[SaturnPilot]

That is the flaw in seniority based schemes. There is no advantage for senior people to provide incentives to junior people. To the contrary it is usually easy to get senior people to screw junior people in exchange for some sort of bread crumb.

I agree, but what is the answer? If we get rid of the seniority system, will we all have to be buddies of the cp's to upgrade, etc?

Pay scales for corporate pilots would seem to be indicative otherwise.

Corporate pay scales are not high simply because ALPA does not represent them. A large amount of pilots prefer airline flying, want to fly widebody international, etc...therefore corporate jobs have to keep their wages high in order to attract pilots to stay there rather than to go to the airlines.

 

[AC560]

I agree, but what is the answer? If we get rid of the seniority system, will we all have to be buddies of the cp's to upgrade, etc?

I would guess you would have to advance on the merits of your skill and your ability to interact with others. Same as every other profession in the world (lawyers, doctors, business executives).

Corporate pay scales are not high simply because ALPA does not represent them. A large amount of pilots prefer airline flying, want to fly widebody international, etc...therefore corporate jobs have to keep their wages high in order to attract pilots to stay there rather than to go to the airlines.

I see so in other words airline pay scales are low because pilots trade their salary so they can fly widebody international and low quality of life. Where corporate pilots instead focus on salary and generally higher quality of life. Makes perfect sense to me.

The reality is airline pay scales are low because there is no competition, and the unions created that. Once a pilot signs onto an airline it can do whatever it wants to him, he is beholden to it for his salary (see post above concerning $70k drop per annum salary). Seniority has made it so the pilots need the airline more then the airline needs the pilots, when logically it should be reversed.

In a more market driven system airlines would have to pay more to recruit and you would see a lot of lateral movement. Instead you make a decision in your early 20's and pray to God it was the right one 45yrs later. The airline doesn't care because it wins no matter what, the unions stack the odds in its favor.

 

[SaturnPilot]

I would guess you would have to advance on the merits of your skill and your ability to interact with others. Same as every other profession in the world (lawyers, doctors, business executives).

this would lead to pilots risking safety to get flights out on time, taking minimum fuel, hesitating to refuse an a/c for maintenance purposes, etc. Airline management is generally not smart/qualified enough to play fair in this scenario.

I see so in other words airline pay scales are low because pilots trade their salary so they can fly widebody international and low quality of life. Where corporate pilots instead focus on salary and generally higher quality of life. Makes perfect sense to me.

no, I'm saying that because more pilots tend to flock to the airline side, the market wages of corporate pilots are forced to go up in order to make the position more attractive.

The reality is airline pay scales are low because there is no competition, and the unions created that. Once a pilot signs onto an airline it can do whatever it wants to him, he is beholden to it for his salary (see post above concerning $70k drop per annum salary). Seniority has made it so the pilots need the airline more then the airline needs the pilots, when logically it should be reversed.

In a more market driven system airlines would have to pay more to recruit and you would see a lot of lateral movement. Instead you make a decision in your early 20's and pray to God it was the right one 45yrs later. The airline doesn't care because it wins no matter what, the unions stack the odds in its favor.

I agree with you about the problems with the seniority system, but going non-union would be a disaster in the airline industry. As we have seen with skybus, there is simply a high supply of pilots willing to fly for the airlines for practically nothing. Why would United have any reason to keep a 747 captain around who has a 70% on time record when they could hire a Skybus pilot and put him in that slot out of seniority?

Rather than eliminate the seniority system, it would be better if all pilots would fight for higher wages on the lower end of the longevity scales...but, if you know of a way to get pilots to fight for someone else's pay, I will buy the first round!

:beer:

 

[AC560]

this would lead to pilots risking safety to get flights out on time, taking minimum fuel, hesitating to refuse an a/c for maintenance purposes, etc. Airline management is generally not smart/qualified enough to play fair in this scenario.

This is a doubly ignorant statement in the sense you insult generally every non-union member of an airline and the ability of a PIC to ensure the safety of his flight. If ALPA is the only thing keeping the skies safe, heaven help us.

no, I'm saying that because more pilots tend to flock to the airline side, the market wages of corporate pilots are forced to go up in order to make the position more attractive.

See the Frontier Pilots take pay cut thread. Management doesn't care if the airline sinks or swims they will laterally move for equal or greater pay. The pilots however need the airline to survive to ensure their way of life. Airline unions are a paper tiger which largely still exist today to benefit management. They are an effective means allowing the airlines to in a sense place a large swathe of their work force into indentured service.

Corporate pilots make more money because they are not tied to their company. Hiring and training a pilot is a major expense for a company (as is recurrent). It is in the interest of that company to keep the pilot, not let him go to the competition. With the airlines, seniority (pay scale) ensures the pilot staying. Corporate uses money to keep the pilot secure.

Why would United have any reason to keep a 747 captain around who has a 70% on time record when they could hire a Skybus pilot and put him in that slot out of seniority?

If the Skybus pilot could perform better why not (many of those pilots were high time with major airline experiance)? There are numerous ways to improve efficiency/profitability without a compromise to safety (insert joke about JetBlue pilots cleaning airplane) why do yo continually link the two? Would you got to the heart surgeon with the most seniority but most deaths or the one who while only 10yrs in the profession has a spotless record and numerous professional accolades? I think we all know the answer to that.

Rather than eliminate the seniority system, it would be better if all pilots would fight for higher wages on the lower end of the longevity scales...but, if you know of a way to get pilots to fight for someone else's pay, I will buy the first round!

When you only accept one path to your goal you eliminate a lot of other options. Why not instead focus on higher pilot pay, better working conditions, greater job security, etc. with no preconceived requirements. Your problem is you can't accept the possibility of other solutions.

 

[SaturnPilot]

This is a doubly ignorant statement in the sense you insult generally every non-union member of an airline and the ability of a PIC to ensure the safety of his flight. If ALPA is the only thing keeping the skies safe, heaven help us.

I never said ALPA was the only thing keeping us safe, nor did I say that non-union pilots cannot operate safely. However, if every airline were non-union and management everywhere could fire a pilot at will, and you think that they would think twice about firing a pilot with a less than perfect on time record, etc, you are dreaming.

Corporate pilots make more money because they are not tied to their company. Hiring and training a pilot is a major expense for a company (as is recurrent). It is in the interest of that company to keep the pilot, not let him go to the competition. With the airlines, seniority (pay scale) ensures the pilot staying. Corporate uses money to keep the pilot secure.

agreed, but with 10,000 pilots lining up to fly 747 left seat for 60K, a company would be able to hire and fire as they please while still saving money by not paying another pilot 200K per year.

If the Skybus pilot could perform better why not (many of those pilots were high time with major airline experiance)?

are you kidding? You actually think it's good for airlines like Skybus to exists paying pilots less to fly an Airbus than a CRJ?

There are numerous ways to improve efficiency/profitability without a compromise to safety (insert joke about JetBlue pilots cleaning airplane) why do yo continually link the two?

what are you talking about? Show me one of my posts where I have mentioned jetblue.

Would you got to the heart surgeon with the most seniority but most deaths or the one who while only 10yrs in the profession has a spotless record and numerous professional accolades? I think we all know the answer to that.

luckily heart surgeons do well in their careers by being good at their job. Would you want to go to the heart surgeon who is in his position because he sucks up to the hospital director, cuts costs by ordering less testing, works while fatugued so he can get ahead, etc?

When you only accept one path to your goal you eliminate a lot of other options. Why not instead focus on higher pilot pay, better working conditions, greater job security, etc. with no preconceived requirements. Your problem is you can't accept the possibility of other solutions.

again, what are you talking about? I asked for solutions earlier in this thread. I then mentioned the same thing you just mentioned about raising pay at the bottom of the longevity scale to eliminate the "one path" problem. You mention focusing on greater job security, but I fail to see how being non-union equates to greater job security.

 

[BigMeat]

First of all I will not become a professional @ss kisser to upgrade. I know some of the corporate guys are pretty good at it. We pay the price of going back to crappy pay when we have to move to another company. It sucks, I know. However I know I will not be passed up for captain upgrade because I wasnt buddy buddy with someone. Or because I dont have to risk my life and those of my passengers to look good in front of management. No thank you. I will continue to pay my ALPA dues and work on making it more effective. How many other trade unions are trying to fight cabatage still? Teamsters? TWU? How about foriegn ownership? AOPA? Some people are so out of touch. Im glad you Skybus lovers are still a minority.

 

[AC560]

How many other trade unions are trying to fight cabatage still? Teamsters? TWU? How about foriegn ownership? AOPA? Some people are so out of touch.

You and Don Quixote keep tilting at those windmills. Hopefully your story ends happier then his and Sancho's.

 

[PCL_128]

And why not? AOPA is VERY imperfect, but there is no other organization working to keep it possible to go fly a Cub or 152 around without European-style regulation and costs.

I couldn't possibly care less about flying a 152 when management has been able to cut pilot pay so much that most pilots can't afford the GA hobby in the first place. Once we get pilot pay back to 1977 level wages, corrected for inflation, maybe then I'll give two sh--- about GA.

 

[PCL_128]

Don't you think it's wrong? If so, how do you correct it while protecting others at the same time?

Of course it's wrong, but what you're advocating is even more wrong. SaturnPilot has adequately discussed what we should be doing to correct the situation: bring up the pay of junior pilots.

 

[Freight Dog]

I love it how everyone seems to think that corporate pilots get "upgraded" based on ass-kissing.

How's this for a concept? At a Part 91 operator I know flying a CL-300, both pilots are compensated rather well... both are typed captains and they alternate left seat. One guy also has additional managerial duties such as maintenance scheduling, training schedule, etc. The captain/manager makes $140k and the co-captain makes $120k. What a f**king nightmare! Oh yeah, I forget... in the airlines, you can't have both people draw captain pay or make similar amount of money!

Here's another novel concept, you can keep seniority for every other aspect except experience... In other words, you can keep your seniority for bidding better schedules, vacation, etc.

But you reward experienced pilots by paying them what they're worth... and if it was 100k at one job, it ain't 30k at another.

There's something to be learned from the expat community and how foreign airlines run things.

How is that wrong PCL?

Well... one small problem, you'd never get ALPA to sign off on that.

 

[PCL_128]

How is that wrong PCL?

Well... one small problem, you'd never get ALPA to sign off on that.

ALPA would never sign off on it because airline management has proven time and again that they can't be trusted with such a system. They would abuse such a system in order to promote ass-kissers that cut corners instead of competent pilots. Would you trust Johnny O to upgrade people based on merit? I didn't think so.

 

[Freight Dog]

ALPA would never sign off on it because airline management has proven time and again that they can't be trusted with such a system. They would abuse such a system in order to promote ass-kissers that cut corners instead of competent pilots. Would you trust Johnny O to upgrade people based on merit? I didn't think so.

What makes you say that and when has airline management proven that they can't be trusted with such a system? I'm asking because I don't know... as far as I can remember, it was always ALL ABOUT SENIORITY.

All you need to do is look at it outside of the airline world to see that your theory that "such system at airline managements cannot be trusted" is wrong.

How does every other industry survive without an in-company seniority system for pay, and what other industry causes people to do the same job for pennies on a dollar simply because it's with a different company?

Come on, pal... open your eyes. You'll see a whole other world out there

 

[imacdog]

I couldn't possibly care less about flying a 152 when management has been able to cut pilot pay so much that most pilots can't afford the GA hobby in the first place. Once we get pilot pay back to 1977 level wages, corrected for inflation, maybe then I'll give two sh--- about GA.

And maybe once you stop being such a loudmouth hypocrite, others on this board will start to give two sh--- about your opinions.

 

[CopilotDoug]

And maybe once you stop being such a loudmouth hypocrite, others on this board will start to give two sh--- about your opinions.

PFT128 a hypocrite??? Never! (Sarcasm)

Amen, Imacdog!:beer:

 

[Freight Dog]

Guys... why make things personal?

PCL128 can at least have a civil debate. It really ruins your credibility when you attack him personally.

 

[PCL_128]

What makes you say that and when has airline management proven that they can't be trusted with such a system? I'm asking because I don't know... as far as I can remember, it was always ALL ABOUT SENIORITY.

All you need to do is look at it outside of the airline world to see that your theory that "such system at airline managements cannot be trusted" is wrong.

How does every other industry survive without an in-company seniority system for pay, and what other industry causes people to do the same job for pennies on a dollar simply because it's with a different company?

Come on, pal... open your eyes. You'll see a whole other world out there

Take a look at most airline training departments. Are they filled with the best and brightest instructors? Maybe some are, but most are filled with company-men and ass-kissers. It's not about merit, it's about who you know and who's ass you've been licking. This is simply reality.

We don't want "merit" entering the equation for schedules, upgrades, payrates, etc... "Merit" is highly subjective. As soon as airline manager have the ability to use their own judgement to determine who is "deserving," you can count on pilot pushing reaching all-time highs. Sorry, I'm not interested.

 

[Colonel Savage]

...As soon as airline manager have the ability to use their own judgement to determine who is "deserving," you can count on pilot pushing reaching all-time highs...

That's the big one in a nutshell right there, yessir...man has a point.

 

[Freight Dog]

We don't want "merit" entering the equation for schedules, upgrades, payrates, etc... "Merit" is highly subjective. As soon as airline manager have the ability to use their own judgement to determine who is "deserving," you can count on pilot pushing reaching all-time highs. Sorry, I'm not interested.

You don't give your fellow pilots enough credit. According to you and Rez, we're all a bunch of retards who need an organization like ALPA to 'take care of us.'

Here's one piece of the equation that you're missing. Forget upgrades based on merit... how about upgrades based on experience? How about pay based on experience?

You never answered me... why should a 20,000 hour captain with 10,000 hours PIC in Boeings get paid $30/hour simply because he changed employers? Shouldn't he command certain pay based on his experience?

You say the answer is raising probationary pay. I still say it's B.S. Why? Because all Grampaw Scrooges at the top of the seniority list who do all the negotiatin' don't give a rat's ass about new or junior people.

Here's another thing, PCL... ever looked at Emirates? They are the world's most successful airline, and the pilots I know working there are by far the happiest pilots out there. Guess what? Not only is there no ALPA there, the unions are actually illegal in UAE. Now how come so many former ALPA pilots are so damn happy out there without ALPA?

ALPA is not the end-all-be-all. There is a life outside of ALPA - pretty good one, actually... the one that doesn't limit you simply based on when you signed on with your current employer.

 

[Freight Dog]

One thing I forgot to mention, PCL...

You and Rez are both saying that ALPA is hindered from striking by previous "illegal" actions by APA and also PATCO which in turn takes away from ALPA's ability to negotiate from a position of power.

One thing you are neglecting is the power of a pilot to quit and go to another employer without skipping a beat on the paycheck. So imagine this.... Johnny O has his pilots sleeping on boards in the back of the plane. Now imagine those guys say screw that... we're going to another airline - and they maintain captain pay. How long do you think before the practice gets changed? It might take some time, but he'll feel the sting.

Being able to leave employer without losing pay would probably be the single, best weapon for pilots to truly restore this profession. Until ALPA realizes this, you won't truly see any restoration of this profession.

 

[PCL_128]

You don't give your fellow pilots enough credit. According to you and Rez, we're all a bunch of retards who need an organization like ALPA to 'take care of us.'

Never said anything like that. Please don't put words in my mouth.

Here's one piece of the equation that you're missing. Forget upgrades based on merit... how about upgrades based on experience? How about pay based on experience?

Sounds like a great idea to me. How 'bout we negotiate for it? Because I've got news for you: management ain't going to give it to you without a union to negotiate for it through the use of leverage. The "free market" will yield lower pay for air line pilots, not higher pay based on "experience." Airline management doesn't care about experience. They care about filling the seat with the cheapest pilot out there.

You say the answer is raising probationary pay. I still say it's B.S. Why? Because all Grampaw Scrooges at the top of the seniority list who do all the negotiatin' don't give a rat's ass about new or junior people.

"Grampaw" doesn't ratify contracts. The majority of a pilot group does. Get your fellow pilots together and start a movement towards this idea. Start a website. Draft resolutions. Get pilots elected. You can make it happen, but it won't happen without membership involvement.

Here's another thing, PCL... ever looked at Emirates? They are the world's most successful airline, and the pilots I know working there are by far the happiest pilots out there. Guess what? Not only is there no ALPA there, the unions are actually illegal in UAE. Now how come so many former ALPA pilots are so damn happy out there without ALPA?

Emirates is experiencing an extreme pilot shortage, as is most of the world. That is not the case in this country. As always, there is a glut of qualified pilots in this country, and there's no sign of that changing within the next decade or two. Countries that have a pilot shortage will do whatever it takes to attract qualified pilots from the States. That means lots of tax-free compensation, tuition reimbursement, housing allowance, positive-space passes, etc.... Airlines in this country will never have to do that, because becoming a pilot in this country is something that is attainable by the masses. The average UAE kiddie simply cannot become an air line pilot. Neither can the average Chinese, Japanese, Indian, etc... kid. The opportunity simply isn't there for them. Trying to compare that pilot shortage situation to the pilot oversupply situation in this country just doesn't wash.

ALPA is not the end-all-be-all. There is a life outside of ALPA - pretty good one, actually... the one that doesn't limit you simply based on when you signed on with your current employer.

Then enjoy your life without unions. I don't want any part of it, but to each his own.

 

[PCL_128]

One thing I forgot to mention, PCL...

You and Rez are both saying that ALPA is hindered from striking by previous "illegal" actions by APA and also PATCO which in turn takes away from ALPA's ability to negotiate from a position of power.

One thing you are neglecting is the power of a pilot to quit and go to another employer without skipping a beat on the paycheck. So imagine this.... Johnny O has his pilots sleeping on boards in the back of the plane. Now imagine those guys say screw that... we're going to another airline - and they maintain captain pay. How long do you think before the practice gets changed? It might take some time, but he'll feel the sting.

Being able to leave employer without losing pay would probably be the single, best weapon for pilots to truly restore this profession. Until ALPA realizes this, you won't truly see any restoration of this profession.

Agreed, which is exactly why I said we need to bring up pay on the lower levels of the longevity scale. Ready to join that fight, or do you just want to keep blaming ALPA?

 

[CopilotDoug]

I agree with you, Freight Dog, and that's why I walked away from the US Airline industry. I've listened to those with more experience who've come before me and they've all said the same thing when it comes to ALPA: Expect more business as usual.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Agreed, which is exactly why I said we need to bring up pay on the lower levels of the longevity scale.

How about a 5 yr contract longevity rather than 18 yrs. 18yrs implies there will be something resembling a career to be had which is not the case with inept management.

 

[Gillegan]

Emirates is experiencing an extreme pilot shortage, as is most of the world. That is not the case in this country. As always, there is a glut of qualified pilots in this country, and there's no sign of that changing within the next decade or two. Countries that have a pilot shortage will do whatever it takes to attract qualified pilots from the States. That means lots of tax-free compensation, tuition reimbursement, housing allowance, positive-space passes, etc.... Airlines in this country will never have to do that, because becoming a pilot in this country is something that is attainable by the masses. The average UAE kiddie simply cannot become an air line pilot. Neither can the average Chinese, Japanese, Indian, etc... kid. The opportunity simply isn't there for them. Trying to compare that pilot shortage situation to the pilot oversupply situation in this country just doesn't wash.

I know, don't let the facts get in the way of a good argument. Do you know anything about becoming an airline pilot in these countries? In the UAE and many other countries, they have ab-initio programs whereby someone with reasonable potential can get 100% of their training paid for and be guaranteed a job (should they pass the training).

I do agree though it is an apples to oranges comparison. The current state of the U.S. Airline Industry is the result of a lot of factors - management, government and yes, unions. If in 1998, you had gotten everyone involved in the airlines together and told them they had 10 years to really screw things up, I don't think they could have done a much better job than they have.

What I see on the labor side is the unions (ALPA) spouting off a lot of the same tired old rhetoric (hey it's in Flying The Line, it must have been on those extra tablets that Moses had laying around). Guys and Girls, it doesn't seem to be doing the job. U.S. major airline pilots have gone from being the highest paid in the world to some of the lowest. At the rate things are going, you won't have to worry about the Mexicans coming up and taking your jobs because you'll be trying to go down there to take theirs.

Right now, the premise of a job for life, and life long benefits of seniority if you will just do the time are just tying people to airlines and jobs that just aren't what they used to be - and never will be. In the mid-twentieth century, ALPA served the purpose to concentrate the powers of the market in the hands of the carriers pilots for enhanced leverage. In the early twenty-first century, it is tying people to failed or failing companies when on a world wide basis - the market is in their favor.

I'm not sure what the answer is. This is an important debate but one thing I do know is the model is not working anymore.

 

[eaglesview]

"What I see on the labor side is the unions (ALPA) spouting off a lot of the same tired old rhetoric (hey it's in Flying The Line, it must have been on those extra tablets that Moses had laying around). Guys and Girls, it doesn't seem to be doing the job. U.S. major airline pilots have gone from being the highest paid in the world to some of the lowest. At the rate things are going, you won't have to worry about the Mexicans coming up and taking your jobs because you'll be trying to go down there to take theirs. "


Perfecto!!!!!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Freight Dog-

I was going to bring up Emirates... They have allot of problems over there... go to pprune and read the threads...

Unions are illegal in UAE. Work rules change unilaterally. And yes, upgrade is part of the good ol' boy network... As a white guy [read 2nd class citizen] when do you think you'll upgrade?

The Brits run allot of the show over there... the pecking order is Brits, Aussies, Canadians, any other subject of the Queen then Yanks.

The rest of the world doesn't want to deal with independant minded Yanks...

The one of many solutions to our problems is to raise the bar for the junior pilots. Take 30K from the senior guys and give it to the junior guys. If first year pay was 60-80K would that be ok for you? Or what would be a fair first year pay for you to start over flying a B737.

The goal is to lift others up... not bring everyone down so we are all miserable together...

The benefit to the senior guys is there is less dispairity, sub groups and less divide and conquer. The more unified a pilot group is the better we can improve pay and QOL for everyone...

 

[AC560]

As a white guy [read 2nd class citizen] when do you think you'll upgrade?

Plus

The Brits run allot of the show over there... the pecking order is Brits, Aussies, Canadians, any other subject of the Queen then Yanks.

Equals

So white guys are second class citizens who can't upgrade but a lot of the show is run by...white guys?