Others value ALPA more than many of its members

[PCL_128]

And why not? AOPA is VERY imperfect, but there is no other organization working to keep it possible to go fly a Cub or 152 around without European-style regulation and costs.

I couldn't possibly care less about flying a 152 when management has been able to cut pilot pay so much that most pilots can't afford the GA hobby in the first place. Once we get pilot pay back to 1977 level wages, corrected for inflation, maybe then I'll give two sh--- about GA.

 

[PCL_128]

Don't you think it's wrong? If so, how do you correct it while protecting others at the same time?

Of course it's wrong, but what you're advocating is even more wrong. SaturnPilot has adequately discussed what we should be doing to correct the situation: bring up the pay of junior pilots.

 

[Freight Dog]

I love it how everyone seems to think that corporate pilots get "upgraded" based on ass-kissing.

How's this for a concept? At a Part 91 operator I know flying a CL-300, both pilots are compensated rather well... both are typed captains and they alternate left seat. One guy also has additional managerial duties such as maintenance scheduling, training schedule, etc. The captain/manager makes $140k and the co-captain makes $120k. What a f**king nightmare! Oh yeah, I forget... in the airlines, you can't have both people draw captain pay or make similar amount of money!

Here's another novel concept, you can keep seniority for every other aspect except experience... In other words, you can keep your seniority for bidding better schedules, vacation, etc.

But you reward experienced pilots by paying them what they're worth... and if it was 100k at one job, it ain't 30k at another.

There's something to be learned from the expat community and how foreign airlines run things.

How is that wrong PCL?

Well... one small problem, you'd never get ALPA to sign off on that.

 

[PCL_128]

How is that wrong PCL?

Well... one small problem, you'd never get ALPA to sign off on that.

ALPA would never sign off on it because airline management has proven time and again that they can't be trusted with such a system. They would abuse such a system in order to promote ass-kissers that cut corners instead of competent pilots. Would you trust Johnny O to upgrade people based on merit? I didn't think so.

 

[Freight Dog]

ALPA would never sign off on it because airline management has proven time and again that they can't be trusted with such a system. They would abuse such a system in order to promote ass-kissers that cut corners instead of competent pilots. Would you trust Johnny O to upgrade people based on merit? I didn't think so.

What makes you say that and when has airline management proven that they can't be trusted with such a system? I'm asking because I don't know... as far as I can remember, it was always ALL ABOUT SENIORITY.

All you need to do is look at it outside of the airline world to see that your theory that "such system at airline managements cannot be trusted" is wrong.

How does every other industry survive without an in-company seniority system for pay, and what other industry causes people to do the same job for pennies on a dollar simply because it's with a different company?

Come on, pal... open your eyes. You'll see a whole other world out there

 

[imacdog]

I couldn't possibly care less about flying a 152 when management has been able to cut pilot pay so much that most pilots can't afford the GA hobby in the first place. Once we get pilot pay back to 1977 level wages, corrected for inflation, maybe then I'll give two sh--- about GA.

And maybe once you stop being such a loudmouth hypocrite, others on this board will start to give two sh--- about your opinions.

 

[CopilotDoug]

And maybe once you stop being such a loudmouth hypocrite, others on this board will start to give two sh--- about your opinions.

PFT128 a hypocrite??? Never! (Sarcasm)

Amen, Imacdog!:beer:

 

[Freight Dog]

Guys... why make things personal?

PCL128 can at least have a civil debate. It really ruins your credibility when you attack him personally.

 

[PCL_128]

What makes you say that and when has airline management proven that they can't be trusted with such a system? I'm asking because I don't know... as far as I can remember, it was always ALL ABOUT SENIORITY.

All you need to do is look at it outside of the airline world to see that your theory that "such system at airline managements cannot be trusted" is wrong.

How does every other industry survive without an in-company seniority system for pay, and what other industry causes people to do the same job for pennies on a dollar simply because it's with a different company?

Come on, pal... open your eyes. You'll see a whole other world out there

Take a look at most airline training departments. Are they filled with the best and brightest instructors? Maybe some are, but most are filled with company-men and ass-kissers. It's not about merit, it's about who you know and who's ass you've been licking. This is simply reality.

We don't want "merit" entering the equation for schedules, upgrades, payrates, etc... "Merit" is highly subjective. As soon as airline manager have the ability to use their own judgement to determine who is "deserving," you can count on pilot pushing reaching all-time highs. Sorry, I'm not interested.

 

[Colonel Savage]

...As soon as airline manager have the ability to use their own judgement to determine who is "deserving," you can count on pilot pushing reaching all-time highs...

That's the big one in a nutshell right there, yessir...man has a point.

 

[Freight Dog]

We don't want "merit" entering the equation for schedules, upgrades, payrates, etc... "Merit" is highly subjective. As soon as airline manager have the ability to use their own judgement to determine who is "deserving," you can count on pilot pushing reaching all-time highs. Sorry, I'm not interested.

You don't give your fellow pilots enough credit. According to you and Rez, we're all a bunch of retards who need an organization like ALPA to 'take care of us.'

Here's one piece of the equation that you're missing. Forget upgrades based on merit... how about upgrades based on experience? How about pay based on experience?

You never answered me... why should a 20,000 hour captain with 10,000 hours PIC in Boeings get paid $30/hour simply because he changed employers? Shouldn't he command certain pay based on his experience?

You say the answer is raising probationary pay. I still say it's B.S. Why? Because all Grampaw Scrooges at the top of the seniority list who do all the negotiatin' don't give a rat's ass about new or junior people.

Here's another thing, PCL... ever looked at Emirates? They are the world's most successful airline, and the pilots I know working there are by far the happiest pilots out there. Guess what? Not only is there no ALPA there, the unions are actually illegal in UAE. Now how come so many former ALPA pilots are so damn happy out there without ALPA?

ALPA is not the end-all-be-all. There is a life outside of ALPA - pretty good one, actually... the one that doesn't limit you simply based on when you signed on with your current employer.

 

[Freight Dog]

One thing I forgot to mention, PCL...

You and Rez are both saying that ALPA is hindered from striking by previous "illegal" actions by APA and also PATCO which in turn takes away from ALPA's ability to negotiate from a position of power.

One thing you are neglecting is the power of a pilot to quit and go to another employer without skipping a beat on the paycheck. So imagine this.... Johnny O has his pilots sleeping on boards in the back of the plane. Now imagine those guys say screw that... we're going to another airline - and they maintain captain pay. How long do you think before the practice gets changed? It might take some time, but he'll feel the sting.

Being able to leave employer without losing pay would probably be the single, best weapon for pilots to truly restore this profession. Until ALPA realizes this, you won't truly see any restoration of this profession.

 

[PCL_128]

You don't give your fellow pilots enough credit. According to you and Rez, we're all a bunch of retards who need an organization like ALPA to 'take care of us.'

Never said anything like that. Please don't put words in my mouth.

Here's one piece of the equation that you're missing. Forget upgrades based on merit... how about upgrades based on experience? How about pay based on experience?

Sounds like a great idea to me. How 'bout we negotiate for it? Because I've got news for you: management ain't going to give it to you without a union to negotiate for it through the use of leverage. The "free market" will yield lower pay for air line pilots, not higher pay based on "experience." Airline management doesn't care about experience. They care about filling the seat with the cheapest pilot out there.

You say the answer is raising probationary pay. I still say it's B.S. Why? Because all Grampaw Scrooges at the top of the seniority list who do all the negotiatin' don't give a rat's ass about new or junior people.

"Grampaw" doesn't ratify contracts. The majority of a pilot group does. Get your fellow pilots together and start a movement towards this idea. Start a website. Draft resolutions. Get pilots elected. You can make it happen, but it won't happen without membership involvement.

Here's another thing, PCL... ever looked at Emirates? They are the world's most successful airline, and the pilots I know working there are by far the happiest pilots out there. Guess what? Not only is there no ALPA there, the unions are actually illegal in UAE. Now how come so many former ALPA pilots are so damn happy out there without ALPA?

Emirates is experiencing an extreme pilot shortage, as is most of the world. That is not the case in this country. As always, there is a glut of qualified pilots in this country, and there's no sign of that changing within the next decade or two. Countries that have a pilot shortage will do whatever it takes to attract qualified pilots from the States. That means lots of tax-free compensation, tuition reimbursement, housing allowance, positive-space passes, etc.... Airlines in this country will never have to do that, because becoming a pilot in this country is something that is attainable by the masses. The average UAE kiddie simply cannot become an air line pilot. Neither can the average Chinese, Japanese, Indian, etc... kid. The opportunity simply isn't there for them. Trying to compare that pilot shortage situation to the pilot oversupply situation in this country just doesn't wash.

ALPA is not the end-all-be-all. There is a life outside of ALPA - pretty good one, actually... the one that doesn't limit you simply based on when you signed on with your current employer.

Then enjoy your life without unions. I don't want any part of it, but to each his own.

 

[PCL_128]

One thing I forgot to mention, PCL...

You and Rez are both saying that ALPA is hindered from striking by previous "illegal" actions by APA and also PATCO which in turn takes away from ALPA's ability to negotiate from a position of power.

One thing you are neglecting is the power of a pilot to quit and go to another employer without skipping a beat on the paycheck. So imagine this.... Johnny O has his pilots sleeping on boards in the back of the plane. Now imagine those guys say screw that... we're going to another airline - and they maintain captain pay. How long do you think before the practice gets changed? It might take some time, but he'll feel the sting.

Being able to leave employer without losing pay would probably be the single, best weapon for pilots to truly restore this profession. Until ALPA realizes this, you won't truly see any restoration of this profession.

Agreed, which is exactly why I said we need to bring up pay on the lower levels of the longevity scale. Ready to join that fight, or do you just want to keep blaming ALPA?

 

[CopilotDoug]

I agree with you, Freight Dog, and that's why I walked away from the US Airline industry. I've listened to those with more experience who've come before me and they've all said the same thing when it comes to ALPA: Expect more business as usual.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Agreed, which is exactly why I said we need to bring up pay on the lower levels of the longevity scale.

How about a 5 yr contract longevity rather than 18 yrs. 18yrs implies there will be something resembling a career to be had which is not the case with inept management.

 

[Gillegan]

Emirates is experiencing an extreme pilot shortage, as is most of the world. That is not the case in this country. As always, there is a glut of qualified pilots in this country, and there's no sign of that changing within the next decade or two. Countries that have a pilot shortage will do whatever it takes to attract qualified pilots from the States. That means lots of tax-free compensation, tuition reimbursement, housing allowance, positive-space passes, etc.... Airlines in this country will never have to do that, because becoming a pilot in this country is something that is attainable by the masses. The average UAE kiddie simply cannot become an air line pilot. Neither can the average Chinese, Japanese, Indian, etc... kid. The opportunity simply isn't there for them. Trying to compare that pilot shortage situation to the pilot oversupply situation in this country just doesn't wash.

I know, don't let the facts get in the way of a good argument. Do you know anything about becoming an airline pilot in these countries? In the UAE and many other countries, they have ab-initio programs whereby someone with reasonable potential can get 100% of their training paid for and be guaranteed a job (should they pass the training).

I do agree though it is an apples to oranges comparison. The current state of the U.S. Airline Industry is the result of a lot of factors - management, government and yes, unions. If in 1998, you had gotten everyone involved in the airlines together and told them they had 10 years to really screw things up, I don't think they could have done a much better job than they have.

What I see on the labor side is the unions (ALPA) spouting off a lot of the same tired old rhetoric (hey it's in Flying The Line, it must have been on those extra tablets that Moses had laying around). Guys and Girls, it doesn't seem to be doing the job. U.S. major airline pilots have gone from being the highest paid in the world to some of the lowest. At the rate things are going, you won't have to worry about the Mexicans coming up and taking your jobs because you'll be trying to go down there to take theirs.

Right now, the premise of a job for life, and life long benefits of seniority if you will just do the time are just tying people to airlines and jobs that just aren't what they used to be - and never will be. In the mid-twentieth century, ALPA served the purpose to concentrate the powers of the market in the hands of the carriers pilots for enhanced leverage. In the early twenty-first century, it is tying people to failed or failing companies when on a world wide basis - the market is in their favor.

I'm not sure what the answer is. This is an important debate but one thing I do know is the model is not working anymore.

 

[eaglesview]

"What I see on the labor side is the unions (ALPA) spouting off a lot of the same tired old rhetoric (hey it's in Flying The Line, it must have been on those extra tablets that Moses had laying around). Guys and Girls, it doesn't seem to be doing the job. U.S. major airline pilots have gone from being the highest paid in the world to some of the lowest. At the rate things are going, you won't have to worry about the Mexicans coming up and taking your jobs because you'll be trying to go down there to take theirs. "


Perfecto!!!!!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Freight Dog-

I was going to bring up Emirates... They have allot of problems over there... go to pprune and read the threads...

Unions are illegal in UAE. Work rules change unilaterally. And yes, upgrade is part of the good ol' boy network... As a white guy [read 2nd class citizen] when do you think you'll upgrade?

The Brits run allot of the show over there... the pecking order is Brits, Aussies, Canadians, any other subject of the Queen then Yanks.

The rest of the world doesn't want to deal with independant minded Yanks...

The one of many solutions to our problems is to raise the bar for the junior pilots. Take 30K from the senior guys and give it to the junior guys. If first year pay was 60-80K would that be ok for you? Or what would be a fair first year pay for you to start over flying a B737.

The goal is to lift others up... not bring everyone down so we are all miserable together...

The benefit to the senior guys is there is less dispairity, sub groups and less divide and conquer. The more unified a pilot group is the better we can improve pay and QOL for everyone...

 

[AC560]

As a white guy [read 2nd class citizen] when do you think you'll upgrade?

Plus

The Brits run allot of the show over there... the pecking order is Brits, Aussies, Canadians, any other subject of the Queen then Yanks.

Equals

So white guys are second class citizens who can't upgrade but a lot of the show is run by...white guys?