Others value ALPA more than many of its members

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Plus



Equals

So white guys are second class citizens who can't upgrade but a lot of the show is run by...white guys?

You're good. I mean really good.

 

[Freight Dog]

Freight Dog-

I was going to bring up Emirates... They have allot of problems over there... go to pprune and read the threads...

Unions are illegal in UAE. Work rules change unilaterally. And yes, upgrade is part of the good ol' boy network... As a white guy [read 2nd class citizen] when do you think you'll upgrade?

The Brits run allot of the show over there... the pecking order is Brits, Aussies, Canadians, any other subject of the Queen then Yanks.

The rest of the world doesn't want to deal with independant minded Yanks...

The one of many solutions to our problems is to raise the bar for the junior pilots. Take 30K from the senior guys and give it to the junior guys. If first year pay was 60-80K would that be ok for you? Or what would be a fair first year pay for you to start over flying a B737.

The goal is to lift others up... not bring everyone down so we are all miserable together...

The benefit to the senior guys is there is less dispairity, sub groups and less divide and conquer. The more unified a pilot group is the better we can improve pay and QOL for everyone...

Well Rez... for all the whiners I see there, I see some happy U.S.-born and bred B-777 captains who have zero desire to come back here. Hell, ask Typhoon Pilot if he wants to come back to fly for a U.S. airline. Could he come back and fly a B-777 for a US airline making that kind of money? Good Heavens, Prater would have a heart attack! SENILITY... err I mean seniority.

I agree with you with regards to lifting up the payscales to 60-80k for starting out... briefs very well. Do you see senior captains giving up that much to "buy insurance" if their airline goes under? I don't... ALPA just recently proved whom they'll listen despite the majority with respect to Age 65.

As someone said... we couldn't have f**ked things up worse if we tried. We, meaning management and ALPA...

 

[AC560]

As someone said... we couldn't have f**ked things up worse if we tried. We, meaning management and ALPA...

The difference is a manager at an airline can laterally transfer to another airline (or in many cases another industry that would utilize their skill sets) for same or greater pay/benefits. When an airline tanks the accountants are getting another good paying job. The pilots are going back to $20k a year.

Seniority has effectively put you into a corner with no escape. Thus pilots can easily be forced to give concessions with the idea being at least they get to keep their jobs and more pay then $20K a year (plus some promise that maybe pay will be restored). Good management when offered cuts just leaves for another job (or bad management for that matter).

Somebody made a good point on this thread about pilots sleeping on boards. If those pilots could just go work elsewhere for the same or better money, don't you think that practice would stop? If somebody told all the accountants at your airline that instead of sitting on chairs they had to sit on milk crates, how long do you think they would stick around (and how long would it take for the airline to wise up and bring back in some chairs).

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Well Rez... for all the whiners I see there, I see some happy U.S.-born and bred B-777 captains who have zero desire to come back here. Hell, ask Typhoon Pilot if he wants to come back to fly for a U.S. airline. Could he come back and fly a B-777 for a US airline making that kind of money? Good Heavens, Prater would have a heart attack! SENILITY... err I mean seniority.

I agree with you with regards to lifting up the payscales to 60-80k for starting out... briefs very well. Do you see senior captains giving up that much to "buy insurance" if their airline goes under? I don't... ALPA just recently proved whom they'll listen despite the majority with respect to Age 65.

As someone said... we couldn't have f**ked things up worse if we tried. We, meaning management and ALPA...

I just don't care for your resignation and apathy... which of course is understandable and your choice and right...

What is the solution? or is there none... do we stop resisting the rapist and submit?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Somebody made a good point on this thread about pilots sleeping on boards. If those pilots could just go work elsewhere for the same or better money, don't you think that practice would stop? If somebody told all the accountants at your airline that instead of sitting on chairs they had to sit on milk crates, how long do you think they would stick around (and how long would it take for the airline to wise up and bring back in some chairs).

There are plenty of managers and VPs that deal with crappy treatment and conditions. The ability to leave is out there but I don't think it is so easy and often as you say....

What is the solution to the pilots leaving quickly... which by the way they do readily at the entry level regionals... Mesa to Skywest for example...


The point...

What is the solution and don't praise the corporate mid to upper level manager world too much... its not that great...

 

[AC560]

There are plenty of managers and VPs that deal with crappy treatment and conditions. The ability to leave is out there but I don't think it is so easy and often as you say....

Sure there are masochists everywhere. If and when they do leave though they are collecting roughly the same pay package which is the difference.

which by the way they do readily at the entry level regionals... Mesa to Skywest for example...

And they readily do that because they can do so with an improvement in pay and QOL, or one or the other without a decay in the other. That opportunity disappears rapidly as the need to claim seniority sets in.

What is the solution

I think I have been pretty clear on the solution. If pilots want to be treated like professionals then they should negotiate like other professionals on the basis of their experience.

Is it a perfect scenario; no. There are a lot of great doctors who don't get the top job because they don't kiss ass as others have previously states. The positives though greatly outweigh the negatives.

Because 80-90% of the pilot workforce today exists essentially as indentured servants due to seniority (inability to flee), management can pretty much do as they please to the entire group. You have no recourse.

 

[PCL_128]

The positives though greatly outweigh the negatives.

Not even close. You couldn't pay me enough to go without union protection in this industry.

 

[Bdfg1]

Not even close. You couldn't pay me enough to go without pay for training.

Interesting.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Sure there are masochists everywhere. If and when they do leave though they are collecting roughly the same pay package which is the difference.

And when they are trying to get a promotion they are playing favorites and being suck ups. Is that professional?

And they readily do that because they can do so with an improvement in pay and QOL, or one or the other without a decay in the other. That opportunity disappears rapidly as the need to claim seniority sets in.

We trade mobility for seniority protections.

The point... do you want to play suck up to upgrade?

I think I have been pretty clear on the solution. If pilots want to be treated like professionals then they should negotiate like other professionals on the basis of their experience.

Experience? So then we will have to create an experience validation program.

Do pilots bad their log books to get job interviews. How would we stop that?

And whats with this experience push... suddenly a 10,000 pilot is better than an 8,000 hour pilot.

The issue is its tough on the ego for a 10,000 pilot to go from CA to FO and pull gear for some kid.

Experience has some value and its paid for in longevity raises... but qualified is qualified.

Is it a perfect scenario; no. There are a lot of great doctors who don't get the top job because they don't kiss ass as others have previously states. The positives though greatly outweigh the negatives.

And is our seniority system. Everyone likes it during the growth times. But hate it during the regression...

What to do?

Because 80-90% of the pilot workforce today exists essentially as indentured servants due to seniority (inability to flee), management can pretty much do as they please to the entire group. You have no recourse.

If you want seniority protections when you get furloughed then you are going to have to make another pilot pay. Sure your exp. counts... but how do you make it work?

 

[AC560]

The issue is its tough on the ego for a 10,000 pilot to go from CA to FO and pull gear for some kid.

No I think the issue is it is hard on a 10,000hr/20yr veteran to go from $150K a year to $20K a year and no pension.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

Well Rez... for all the whiners I see there, I see some happy U.S.-born and bred B-777 captains who have zero desire to come back here. Hell, ask Typhoon Pilot if he wants to come back to fly for a U.S. airline. Could he come back and fly a B-777 for a US airline making that kind of money?

I wouldn't come back to the domestic US market until the salary level comes to at least an average compared to all other industrialized nations and that will mean a 100% pay increase across the board, I don't see that happening.

The rest of the world doesn't want to deal with independant minded Yanks...

Hum???? All foreign companies that hire ex pats are actually targeting the US for pilots now with road shows and the likes. There are some companies in ASIA that are planing US pilot bases to attract more American pilots and increasingly offering options like "commuting" contracts.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

No I think the issue is it is hard on a 10,000hr/20yr veteran to go from $150K a year to $20K a year and no pension.

And it has always been like this... and many pilots have suffered this dilema over the years. Are you surprised? Didn't think it could/would happen to you.

We've had 70 years to fix this.... what were we doing when life was good?

I wouldn't come back to the domestic US market until the salary level comes to at least an average compared to all other industrialized nations and that will mean a 100% pay increase across the board, I don't see that happening.

That's the point... many guys go ex-pat... they get comfortable on the money... but many do want to come back and live in the US but can't....

Hum???? All foreign companies that hire ex pats are actually targeting the US for pilots now with road shows and the likes. There are some companies in ASIA that are planing US pilot bases to attract more American pilots and increasingly offering options like "commuting" contracts.

Thus the supply and demand of todays market...

However, for example... in the Middle East... who are/was the preferred ex-pats?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

.....

 

[Freight Dog]

I just don't care for your resignation and apathy... which of course is understandable and your choice and right...

What is the solution? or is there none... do we stop resisting the rapist and submit?

Are we resisting? 70 years of proud tradition unhampered by progress, Rez!

The solution for me personally is to take this with stride and seek employment in other parts of aviation. If that job goes away, I can take my skill and experience to another job that pays similar or better. Really can't do that in the airline industry unless I go overseas.

We trade mobility for seniority protections.

The point... do you want to play suck up to upgrade?

You know... many corporate places only hire captains. Now, how is it possible to have 2 captains on a flight deck?? Who gets to play Jack Byrnes "only the captain gets to sound the horn?" Not only that, but good operators pay really close together, within 10-20% for Lead Captain vs. Captain. Do you really care if you "upgrade"? Or "only the captain gets to play with the tiller"? The closest thing the airline has is that FO should get 60% of captain pay... 60%... and yet read your quote below. Why so much disparity?

Experience has some value and its paid for in longevity raises... but qualified is qualified.

Experience has ALL the value. You don't even know how much airline pilots have ruined this profession through seniority-based pay. Qualified = qualified? If that's the case, you should have only 10-20% difference between captains and FO's. We all know that's a pipe dream. Thank you, UNION!

Not even close. You couldn't pay me enough to go without union protection in this industry.

You strike me as a sharp guy, PCL. I wonder why you are so blinded by unions. I know corporate guys, no union protection, making more than FDX/UPS guys.

You know what's interesting? I remember you coming on this board a while back. You were so gung-ho against RJDC way back when. I was at a regional back then, and I was also very gung-ho about ALPA, just like you. After enough time has passed by, after seeing injustices done by ALPA, I still had some faith. When I took leave from Aloha during our first bankruptcy, I saw a whole other world in corporate aviation. I saw pilots working, getting better jobs without taking paycuts to do that, I saw a number of things that are better that just don't happen in the airlines. I saw some things that are worse, too.

That experience got me thinking and wondering. I never thought my airline would fold. I thought at worst, we would have been acquired by some other airline. Hell, we were within hours of announcing that UAL was absorbing AQ... but oil shot straight up and UAL CFO nixed the deal. So what happens, Freight Dog loses his 100k+ a year job flying 737NG's. Now what? Seniority rules dictate that if I go to any airline, I make bottom dollar (20-25k). Sorry pal... SENIORITY!
Now I look at my corporate friends... they shrug and say... "Unions, buddy. If we have an a**hole boss, we'll take our experience to another gig for more money." Bottom line, CEO's, CFO's, COO's, VP's, corporate pilots, etc... all those people who consider themselves professionals, can make a lateral move and make the same or better living than they were before. Airline pilots cannot because they are hamstrung by seniority. Does that mean airline pilots are not professionals? One could argue so...

To say what you said PCL is rather shallow. However, I hear you because I was singing the same mantra a while back until I opened my eyes to reality. I'm glad that it happened now, at this point in my career, and not 20 years from now.

 

[PCL_128]

Freight Dog, if you continue to try to compare domestic airlines to foreign airlines and corporate, then we're never going to get anywhere. The job markets and job descriptions are completely different, and always will be, and it has nothing to do with unions or the seniority system. It has to do with management mentalities and the free market. Until you realize that, we're going nowhere in this conversation.

 

[Freight Dog]

PCL, the reason we're not going anywhere is because you haven't grasped or accepted any alternative to the seniority-based compensation, or any alternative to seniority system.

The sooner people realize that it's severely limiting, and grossly flawed, the sooner this profession will be restored.

Until then.......

 

[PCL_128]

PCL, the reason we're not going anywhere is because you haven't grasped or accepted any alternative to the seniority-based compensation, or any alternative to seniority system.

I've considered the possibility and determined it to be completely unworkable in this industry. If you weren't so blinded by your anger over the situation at Aloha, you'd realize that it would be suicide to allow airline management the latitude to consider "merit" for anything. The second seniority and union protections leave this industry, we're all screwed. Safety and fairness will be replaced with penny-pinching and ass-kissing. I want nothing to do with it. If you're tired of seniority, then have fun in the corporate world.

 

[Freight Dog]

I've considered the possibility and determined it to be completely unworkable in this industry. If you weren't so blinded by your anger over the situation at Aloha, you'd realize that it would be suicide to allow airline management the latitude to consider "merit" for anything. The second seniority and union protections leave this industry, we're all screwed. Safety and fairness will be replaced with penny-pinching and ass-kissing. I want nothing to do with it. If you're tired of seniority, then have fun in the corporate world.

PCL, the answer is not walking away from seniority all the way around. There is a place for seniority - bidding schedules, vacation/sick leave accrual, etc.

What chaps me the most is that if I wanted to stick around the airline industry; considering that no one is hiring now, I'd be lumped with and PAID THE SAME as a 300 hour guy coming out of ALL ATPS.

Fair? Right? I don't know... you tell me.

 

[PCL_128]

PCL, the answer is not walking away from seniority all the way around. There is a place for seniority - bidding schedules, vacation/sick leave accrual, etc.

What chaps me the most is that if I wanted to stick around the airline industry; considering that no one is hiring now, I'd be lumped with and PAID THE SAME as a 300 hour guy coming out of ALL ATPS.

Fair? Right? I don't know... you tell me.

The answer is longevity pay, which links your payscale to your ALPA longevity. ALPA is already in the process of working on this at the regional level, and most of the regional MECs have agreed to the framework. Hopefully the idea will take hold and spread to the major carriers also. Time will tell.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

What chaps me the most is that if I wanted to stick around the airline industry; considering that no one is hiring now, I'd be lumped with and PAID THE SAME as a 300 hour guy coming out of ALL ATPS.

Fair? Right? I don't know... you tell me.

Fair? who said anything about fair in this free market economy? You seem to favor EU work rules.

Question....

if you want to stick around after the Aloha furlough in the industry and get paid fairly to do so.... then you want someone to value your experience...

first....who values your exp. and more importantly...who is willing to PAY for it....

if you say ALPA then fine...work the system to align ALPA values. Just ensure you don't take from another pilot...

if you say management ....fine. If you can convince management to pay higher wages for you over first year pay then you can be negotiator emeritus.

Finally, you like the corp world... some jobs are great others not. It all depends on the company. Work rules vary drastically....

and pay.... sure you make 130K, but again... in 20 years what will you be making? 150? 175?