Others value ALPA more than many of its members

[Freight Dog]

PCL, the reason we're not going anywhere is because you haven't grasped or accepted any alternative to the seniority-based compensation, or any alternative to seniority system.

The sooner people realize that it's severely limiting, and grossly flawed, the sooner this profession will be restored.

Until then.......

 

[PCL_128]

PCL, the reason we're not going anywhere is because you haven't grasped or accepted any alternative to the seniority-based compensation, or any alternative to seniority system.

I've considered the possibility and determined it to be completely unworkable in this industry. If you weren't so blinded by your anger over the situation at Aloha, you'd realize that it would be suicide to allow airline management the latitude to consider "merit" for anything. The second seniority and union protections leave this industry, we're all screwed. Safety and fairness will be replaced with penny-pinching and ass-kissing. I want nothing to do with it. If you're tired of seniority, then have fun in the corporate world.

 

[Freight Dog]

I've considered the possibility and determined it to be completely unworkable in this industry. If you weren't so blinded by your anger over the situation at Aloha, you'd realize that it would be suicide to allow airline management the latitude to consider "merit" for anything. The second seniority and union protections leave this industry, we're all screwed. Safety and fairness will be replaced with penny-pinching and ass-kissing. I want nothing to do with it. If you're tired of seniority, then have fun in the corporate world.

PCL, the answer is not walking away from seniority all the way around. There is a place for seniority - bidding schedules, vacation/sick leave accrual, etc.

What chaps me the most is that if I wanted to stick around the airline industry; considering that no one is hiring now, I'd be lumped with and PAID THE SAME as a 300 hour guy coming out of ALL ATPS.

Fair? Right? I don't know... you tell me.

 

[PCL_128]

PCL, the answer is not walking away from seniority all the way around. There is a place for seniority - bidding schedules, vacation/sick leave accrual, etc.

What chaps me the most is that if I wanted to stick around the airline industry; considering that no one is hiring now, I'd be lumped with and PAID THE SAME as a 300 hour guy coming out of ALL ATPS.

Fair? Right? I don't know... you tell me.

The answer is longevity pay, which links your payscale to your ALPA longevity. ALPA is already in the process of working on this at the regional level, and most of the regional MECs have agreed to the framework. Hopefully the idea will take hold and spread to the major carriers also. Time will tell.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

What chaps me the most is that if I wanted to stick around the airline industry; considering that no one is hiring now, I'd be lumped with and PAID THE SAME as a 300 hour guy coming out of ALL ATPS.

Fair? Right? I don't know... you tell me.

Fair? who said anything about fair in this free market economy? You seem to favor EU work rules.

Question....

if you want to stick around after the Aloha furlough in the industry and get paid fairly to do so.... then you want someone to value your experience...

first....who values your exp. and more importantly...who is willing to PAY for it....

if you say ALPA then fine...work the system to align ALPA values. Just ensure you don't take from another pilot...

if you say management ....fine. If you can convince management to pay higher wages for you over first year pay then you can be negotiator emeritus.

Finally, you like the corp world... some jobs are great others not. It all depends on the company. Work rules vary drastically....

and pay.... sure you make 130K, but again... in 20 years what will you be making? 150? 175?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The answer is longevity pay, which links your payscale to your ALPA longevity. ALPA is already in the process of working on this at the regional level, and most of the regional MECs have agreed to the framework. Hopefully the idea will take hold and spread to the major carriers also. Time will tell.

who is going to pay for that?

another answer is higher first year pay system wide

 

[CopilotDoug]

another answer is higher first year pay system wide

At the expense of the more senior pilots who are knocking on the door of retirement? You'll have more calls for decertification.

 

[PCL_128]

At the expense of the more senior pilots who are knocking on the door of retirement? You'll have more calls for decertification.

Pilots that are nearing retirement are a distinct minority. Everyone likes to claim that the senior pilots are responsible for all of the contract ills that they perceive, but the fact is, all contracts require a majority vote to ratify, and by definition, a majority can't be "senior." Junior pilots are just as responsible as the senior pilots for pathetic early-year payrates. Everyone forgets what it's like to be on first year pay after they reach that 13th month.

 

[Freight Dog]

Everyone forgets what it's like to be on first year pay after they reach that 13th month.

WRONG! I was one of the big proponents to change that B.S. at Aloha. I suggested that to number of our senior captains, and EVERY SINGLE ONE said no f**king way!!!

They'd ask me... "would you give up your payraise for an unknown starting here?"
My answer, every time, was absofrigginlutely. To pay a 737 driver the pay we were paying the first year, in Hawaii no less, was criminal. It was on par with commuters, with 2nd year being something like a 125% pay raise.

Someone asked... could we have dicked up this industry and profession if we intentionally tried? Frankly, I don't think so...

 

[PCL_128]

Freight Dog, you're one of the exceptions. Most pilots, including the relatively junior, are not willing to focus their efforts on raising first year pay. That's our problem. Blaming the very few that are senior isn't intellectually honest, since the "senior" don't have the strength in numbers to dictate policy and pass CBAs.