787s for Delta? Huh? Rumor alert....

[General Lee]

Rumor from some guy on planeblogger (I have no clue who that is, as told to me by a friend--yes I have a friend) says Delta has a "phantom" order for 23 domestic version 787s, to replace our 23 domestic 767-300s (non ERs). The order does NOT supposedly replace any NWA orders, it is totally seperate. I don't know when the order was made, and as I stated it was supposedly a "phantom" order, so it could have been done a while ago. Again, I don't know what version 787 it would be, but supposedly it would replace the DOMESTIC 767s.

I do know one thing though, I haven't seen one 787 fly yet, so it might be awhile if this were to come true. Anyone know Nicalau's phone number?


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Spooky 2]

Rumor from some guy on planeblogger (I have no clue who that is, as told to me by a friend--yes I have a friend) says Delta has a "phantom" order for 23 domestic version 787s, to replace our 23 domestic 767-300s (non ERs). The order does NOT supposedly replace any NWA orders, it is totally seperate. I don't know when the order was made, and as I stated it was supposedly a "phantom" order, so it could have been done a while ago. Again, I don't know what version 787 it would be, but supposedly it would replace the DOMESTIC 767s.

I do know one thing though, I haven't seen one 787 fly yet, so it might be awhile if this were to come true. Anyone know Nicalau's phone number?


Bye Bye--General Lee

Sort of like the Chinese MD90's eh?

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

My guess is that dalpa has agreed with mgt to shift nwa orders to their list in the interest of protecting THEIR members at the expense of others. Kind of sounds like CAL/EAL part 2. Oh well, alpa let CAL back and now we have a president of alpa who benefited from EALs demise. Should we expect more. In the future, after NWs dismantleing and subsequent shift of flying to the soon to be growing Dal all will be forgiven of dalpa by alpa and the only ones bitter will be us former nwa employees looking for work. With dalpas help, the nwa pilots/employees are being backed into a corner, dalpas way or the highway. My guess is once the dismantling/shifting of route authority begins,(we/all nwa employees will have to walk out, Eal pt 2) dalpa will come back with another offer of allowing us to reapply to the new dal to make it look as they are doing us a favor.

 

[General Lee]

Sort of like the Chinese MD90's eh?

So, why did we train all of the CVG pilots to fly the MD90, if SLC was doing fine with the current 16? Sounds like that rumor actually cost DL some money to train people.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Noserider76]

My guess is that dalpa has agreed with mgt to shift nwa orders to their list in the interest of protecting THEIR members at the expense of others. Kind of sounds like CAL/EAL part 2. Oh well, alpa let CAL back and now we have a president of alpa who benefited from EALs demise. Should we expect more. In the future, after NWs dismantleing and subsequent shift of flying to the soon to be growing Dal all will be forgiven of dalpa by alpa and the only ones bitter will be us former nwa employees looking for work. With dalpas help, the nwa pilots/employees are being backed into a corner, dalpas way or the highway. My guess is once the dismantling/shifting of route authority begins,(we/all nwa employees will have to walk out, Eal pt 2) dalpa will come back with another offer of allowing us to reapply to the new dal to make it look as they are doing us a favor.

Believe it or not the vast majority of guys here want us to benefit equally from this deal. Nobody wants or will permit gains at your expense. Details are coming out here via MEC roadshows. Give it a couple weeks to settle out before declaring the sky is falling. I wanted no part of this deal but I think when we look back a couple years from now we'll realize it worked out pretty well for all of us. That is, unless we do irrepairable damage before we have all the facts.

 

[Shrek]

Rumor from some guy on planeblogger (I have no clue who that is, as told to me by a friend--yes I have a friend) says Delta has a "phantom" order for 23 domestic version 787s, to replace our 23 domestic 767-300s (non ERs). The order does NOT supposedly replace any NWA orders, it is totally seperate. I don't know when the order was made, and as I stated it was supposedly a "phantom" order, so it could have been done a while ago. Again, I don't know what version 787 it would be, but supposedly it would replace the DOMESTIC 767s.

I do know one thing though, I haven't seen one 787 fly yet, so it might be awhile if this were to come true. Anyone know Nicalau's phone number?


Bye Bye--General Lee

I have heard the same - awhile back and way before they were in talks to merge. Time will tell.

 

[~~~^~~~]

My guess is that dalpa has agreed with mgt to shift nwa orders to their list in the interest of protecting THEIR members at the expense of others. Kind of sounds like CAL/EAL part 2.

Is this a serious post?

Eastern was never offered a 20 to 40% raise, equity and relative seniority. Eastern pilots would not have turned down such an offer. Anderson is no Lorenzo, is Dave Stevens a Charlie Bryan?

If you believe your assertion that there are parallels between NWA and EAL, then you would be wide to call your Reps and tell them not to follow their path.

The Eastern pilots fought a truly meanspirited and dishonest foe. Delta is not anything like Eastern and Northwest airlines is a much more successful company than Eastern.

Let us all hope that we are never in the shoes of the Eastern guys.

 

[clippyrip]

Believe it or not the vast majority of guys here want us to benefit equally from this deal. Nobody wants or will permit gains at your expense. Details are coming out here via MEC roadshows. Give it a couple weeks to settle out before declaring the sky is falling. I wanted no part of this deal but I think when we look back a couple years from now we'll realize it worked out pretty well for all of us. That is, unless we do irrepairable damage before we have all the facts.

I hope you are right. As it stands now, this whole situation is walking like a duck and quacking like a duck so many at NWA only see one name to call it....

 

[~~~^~~~]

Rumor says Delta has a "phantom" order for 23 787s, to replace our 767-300s (non ERs). ...General Lee

The basis for Jim Whitehurst's statement at Paris Air Show that everyone immediately said was incorrect? It would seem the President of Delta would have been in a position to know about Delta's orders.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I hope you are right. As it stands now, this whole situation is walking like a duck and quacking like a duck so many at NWA only see one name to call it....

Not you also. You've always been reasonable.

Ask, what could provide the best possible outcome to you and your co-workers? The obvious answer is accepting the relative seniority offer would have been the best for everyone financially.

That offer is no longer on the table (the Delta pilots took less). The Northwest pilots are going to have to take less also, but, the sooner the better.

 

[MJ42]

Not you also. You've always been reasonable.

Ask, what could provide the best possible outcome to you and your co-workers? The obvious answer is accepting the relative seniority offer would have been the best for everyone financially.

That offer is no longer on the table (the Delta pilots took less). The Northwest pilots are going to have to take less also, but, the sooner the better.

He's still reasonable. I think his concern is due to a lack of information available to us.

 

[AT7^DRIVER]

I have heard the same - awhile back and way before they were in talks to merge. Time will tell.

Hey Shrek - I think it's time for a pint at Sharky's!!

 

[DTW320]

Ask, what could provide the best possible outcome to you and your co-workers? The obvious answer is accepting the relative seniority offer would have been the best for everyone financially.

Got anything in writing that you could post about your relative seniority "offer"? Neither do I. All I have is what I have heard from our guys: we agreed to a 7:5 ratio (7 DAL to 5 NWA = 1.4) and then DALPA changed it to 8:5, which = 1.6.

Hard to know who to believe with nothing official to read.

 

[clippyrip]

Not you also. You've always been reasonable.

I think I am still reasonable. In reality, I am at the bottom of the NWA list so if we merged like a deck of cards or if our entire airline was stapled, I'd still be at the bottom. What I am worried about is my airline being bled dry while the two companies are operated separately with one owner. Also, the new Delta could start parking a whole lot more DC9s than what would have been done as a stand alone. There by ridding the new Delta of one pilot group and not the other.

I'm trying to look at this from MGMTs view and this separation of the pilot groups is a dream come true.

As it stands right now, NWA has it's keister in the wind and we need to get on board with you before we really get screwed. I want the NWA MEC to close the deal today.

 

[Shrek]

Hey Shrek - I think it's time for a pint at Sharky's!!

If this is the guy that I think it is - I think we are "familiar" with the same bartender......lol.

Bring sunscreen to Indoc brutha..........be safe.

 

[another cfii]

Best way is to let your LEC rep knows! Call them on a Sunday afternoon. It's your union too, even though you may not be able to vote on any TA until you're off probation.

 

[nwaredtail]

I think I am still reasonable. In reality, I am at the bottom of the NWA list so if we merged like a deck of cards or if our entire airline was stapled, I'd still be at the bottom. What I am worried about is my airline being bled dry while the two companies are operated separately with one owner. Also, the new Delta could start parking a whole lot more DC9s than what would have been done as a stand alone. There by ridding the new Delta of one pilot group and not the other.

I'm trying to look at this from MGMTs view and this separation of the pilot groups is a dream come true.

As it stands right now, NWA has it's keister in the wind and we need to get on board with you before we really get screwed. I want the NWA MEC to close the deal today.

So you want to be furloughed? Because if we took DAL's last offer, 500 plus, for years.. Now, remember , we will be downed to 58 DC-9's by the end of 08. The MSP-ORD-DTW route alone needs approx 10 planes by itself, so I don't think you will see the rest parked anytime soon. Anderson was involved in the Re-configuration of the DC-9, so he knows that even with high gas, it's a good 100-125 seat plane. Let's hope the DAL boys and the senior NWA pilots don't give any more scope.

 

[AT7^DRIVER]

If this is the guy that I think it is - I think we are "familiar" with the same bartender......lol.

Bring sunscreen to Indoc brutha..........be safe.

If I run into another bartender like that over there...it's going to take a lot more than just sunscreen for protection!

 

[IronCityBlue]

So you want to be furloughed? Because if we took DAL's last offer, 500 plus, for years.

Nice hyperbole, but do you think the bottom 500 at NWA is safer with a huge percentage of their fleet in DC-9's at 120/bbl oil with no realistic replacement on the way for a while? Is it fair to create an SLI in a manner which furloughs 500 Delta pilots exclusively because of the parking of DC-9's? The best thing would be to get a deal done now, with as good of a no furlough clause that can be negotiated, including extremely low mandatory bid divisiors (60 hours, etc) before any pilot was furloughed, coupled with complete 70 seat scope reversal prior to any furloughs.

Then and only then would the company be allowed to reduce headcount, especially since the merger is a win-win-win, like they are telling the whole world it is. Fine, put it in writing, and now is the time to get them to. Either that or get them to admit they won't, which will shatter their optimistic political banter. The pilots at both airlines have a small window of leverage right now if they can work together. Pissing in eachother's faces over phantom orders and some lame brained definition of "premium widebody flying," etc, will just end up hurting both groups.

 

[nwaredtail]

Nice hyperbole, but do you think the bottom 500 at NWA is safer with a huge percentage of their fleet in DC-9's at 120/bbl oil with no realistic replacement on the way for a while? Is it fair to create an SLI in a manner which furloughs 500 Delta pilots exclusively because of the parking of DC-9's? The best thing would be to get a deal done now, with as good of a no furlough clause that can be negotiated, including extremely low mandatory bid divisiors (60 hours, etc) before any pilot was furloughed, coupled with complete 70 seat scope reversal prior to any furloughs.

Then and only then would the company be allowed to reduce headcount, especially since the merger is a win-win-win, like they are telling the whole world it is. Fine, put it in writing, and now is the time to get them to. Either that or get them to admit they won't, which will shatter their optimistic political banter. The pilots at both airlines have a small window of leverage right now if they can work together. Pissing in eachother's faces over phantom orders and some lame brained definition of "premium widebody flying," etc, will just end up hurting both groups.

GUARANTEED, that if there are furloughs due to the merger, DC-9's or not, they will be from the combined airline list, arbitrator or not. NWA had no plans to furlough Pre-merger, so how can it be fair if DAL decides to park planes? Any arbitrator will see that, sooner than DALPA thinks from what I am hearing.

 

[clippyrip]

GUARANTEED, that if there are furloughs due to the merger, DC-9's or not, they will be from the combined airline list

The way I see it, if they park more DC9s than what would have been parked as a stand alone, then both groups need to share in the furloughs.

Any fleet decisions they make predicated on the new Delta fleet(NWAs and Deltas birds) should be split/shared between the two groups, for good or for bad.

That is why I don't like being operated as two companies with one owner. It is a management whipsaw dream.

 

[JAM-BRO]

If MGT had a bit more brains, they would bring everyone on board. This place would run like a top...

 

[NuGuy]

Is this a serious post?

Eastern was never offered a 20 to 40% raise, equity and relative seniority.

Man, you guys have to lay off the crack pipe with this relative seniority baloney.

It was NEVER in print because it was NEVER offered.

The closest ANYONE has come to actually publishing the REAL DAL final proposal was FDJ.

THIS was the final DAL proposal:

The top third was a 1:1.5 ratio to get the senior NWA guys to buy off on it.

The middle third was broken up, but it was close to a 1:2. Guys at the TOP of this bracket were the only ones "within 1/2 percent". Guys in the middle and bottom got totally screwed.

The bottom third was a 1:3, which isn't EVEN close to a percentage ratio. Most guys would lose THOUSANDS of numbers in seniory, and see seniority shifts between 10-20 percent.

Think I'm wrong? Call your rep and find out.

Nu

 

[FDJ2]

My guess is that dalpa has agreed with mgt to shift nwa orders to their list in the interest of protecting THEIR members at the expense of others.

No NWA orders will be flown by Delta pilots until there is a joint contract, single seniority list and single operating certificate.

Hopefully will engage in joint contract negotiations ASAP.

From the Delta MEC resolution AI 08-S09A passed on April 12, 2008:

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED the Delta MEC welcomes the Northwest pilots as partners in the building of the new merged airline and looks forward to working with the Northwest MEC to bring about the rapid completion of a new joint agreement to take effect on the closing of the corporate transaction providing immediate parity in rates of pay and further providing for a rapid completion of a fair and equitable integrated seniority list to take effect on the effective date of the new joint agreement....

 

[FDJ2]

All I have is what I have heard from our guys: we agreed to a 7:5 ratio (7 DAL to 5 NWA = 1.4) and then DALPA changed it to 8:5, which = 1.6.

Hard to know who to believe with nothing official to read.

Was that a change due to the inclusion of a dynamic list and aircraft orders?

Regardless, SLI will all play itself out in due time. The more pressing issue, now that your MEC Chairman is well rested from his vacation, is the negotiations of a joint contract as soon as possible.

I know the NWA pilots don't believe in timelines for getting things done, but they exist. Ignoring them resulted in two missed opportunities already. Don't make it three.

From the Delta MEC resolution AI 08-S09A passed on April 12, 2008:

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED the Delta MEC welcomes the Northwest pilots as partners in the building of the new merged airline and looks forward to working with the Northwest MEC to bring about the rapid completion of a new joint agreement to take effect on the closing of the corporate transaction providing immediate parity in rates of pay and further providing for a rapid completion of a fair and equitable integrated seniority list to take effect on the effective date of the new joint agreement....

 

[FDJ2]

The way I see it, if they park more DC9s than what would have been parked as a stand alone, then both groups need to share in the furloughs.

How on earth do you determine that? Business plans change all the time.

Any fleet decisions they make predicated on the new Delta fleet(NWAs and Deltas birds) should be split/shared between the two groups, for good or for bad.

That's never been the case. Until there is a joint contract, single operating certificate and single list, it won't happen here either. Until that time, the NWA pilots have the protections afforded them in their CBA, as do the Delta pilots.

That is why I don't like being operated as two companies with one owner. It is a management whipsaw dream.

It' important to have scope lnguage that prevents that. We believe we do.

From the Delta MEC resolution AI 08-S09A passed on April 12, 2008:

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED the Delta MEC welcomes the Northwest pilots as partners in the building of the new merged airline and looks forward to working with the Northwest MEC to bring about the rapid completion of a new joint agreement to take effect on the closing of the corporate transaction providing immediate parity in rates of pay and further providing for a rapid completion of a fair and equitable integrated seniority list to take effect on the effective date of the new joint agreement....

 

[IronCityBlue]

GUARANTEED, that if there are furloughs due to the merger, DC-9's or not, they will be from the combined airline list, arbitrator or not. NWA had no plans to furlough Pre-merger, so how can it be fair if DAL decides to park planes? Any arbitrator will see that, sooner than DALPA thinks from what I am hearing.

NWA's stand alone plan at 95/bbl or their DC-9 laden stand alone plan at 130/bbl? Right now I don't think there are any plans for furloughs in the near future because management has been promising everyone none, including the regulators they are trying to massage. But throw in an even more severe to extreme oil crisis and DC-9's will be parked really quick. NWA had a good cash position and Pacific route structure pre merger, but 130/bbl oil would have changed that anyway.

That said, there should be no reason to furlough less than 2000 pilots. 500 would easily be able to be absorbed by lower bid divisors as well as taking it out of the equity payout. Why give senior guys a quarter mil of the new found money when you can lower monthly lines and keep everyone around? Particularly when its a contentious issue. Furloughs from either group would be a disaster and should be agressively avoided by management and pilot leadership.

But in no case will an arbitrator let you furlough from both lists because of the parking of -9's only when you are being run as seperate companies pre merger, and this is still pre merger. The DAL LOA hasn't taken effect yet, and regulatory aprooval will take many months. Until then they are 100% seperate airlines, and any arbitrator would see that. The NWA negotiators are way past their peak "premium widebody," "phantom 78," and "76's don't count as widebody flying" leverage. Way past. And any arbitrator will see that too, "guaranteed."

 

[nwaredtail]

NWA's stand alone plan at 95/bbl or their DC-9 laden stand alone plan at 130/bbl? Right now I don't think there are any plans for furloughs in the near future because management has been promising everyone none, including the regulators they are trying to massage. But throw in an even more severe to extreme oil crisis and DC-9's will be parked really quick. NWA had a good cash position and Pacific route structure pre merger, but 130/bbl oil would have changed that anyway.

That said, there should be no reason to furlough less than 2000 pilots. 500 would easily be able to be absorbed by lower bid divisors as well as taking it out of the equity payout. Why give senior guys a quarter mil of the new found money when you can lower monthly lines and keep everyone around? Particularly when its a contentious issue. Furloughs from either group would be a disaster and should be agressively avoided by management and pilot leadership.

But in no case will an arbitrator let you furlough from both lists because of the parking of -9's only when you are being run as seperate companies pre merger, and this is still pre merger. The DAL LOA hasn't taken effect yet, and regulatory aprooval will take many months. Until then they are 100% seperate airlines, and any arbitrator would see that. The NWA negotiators are way past their peak "premium widebody," "phantom 78," and "76's don't count as widebody flying" leverage. Way past. And any arbitrator will see that too, "guaranteed."

Complete crap, at 130 bbl oil, all airplanes are pissing away money.

How many arbirtrations has DAL been through in the last 20 years? Let's just say, we like our odds.

 

[NuGuy]

But throw in an even more severe to extreme oil crisis and DC-9's will be parked really quick. NWA had a good cash position and Pacific route structure pre merger, but 130/bbl oil would have changed that anyway.

But in no case will an arbitrator let you furlough from both lists because of the parking of -9's only when you are being run as seperate companies pre merger, and this is still pre merger. The DAL LOA hasn't taken effect yet, and regulatory aprooval will take many months. Until then they are 100% seperate airlines, and any arbitrator would see that. The NWA negotiators are way past their peak "premium widebody," "phantom 78," and "76's don't count as widebody flying" leverage. Way past. And any arbitrator will see that too, "guaranteed."

Heyas Sparky,

Yup, you're right. Separate companies. NWA scope is still in effect, and with the narrowbody floor, they can't park -9s, 320s or 757s without parking RJs.

An arbitrator will see that, too.

Nu

 

[IronCityBlue]

Heyas Sparky,

Yup, you're right. Separate companies. NWA scope is still in effect, and with the narrowbody floor, they can't park -9s, 320s or 757s without parking RJs.

An arbitrator will see that, too.

Nu

And make them park RJ's. You say that like its a bad thing.