Recall Prater Before He Blows This Merger Too

[grog_sit_reserv]

I'm pretty sure we won't be ALPA come Friday, I could be wrong of course, but for those of you still in ALPA with your own merger happening or waiting in the wings; you should start the process of recalling Prater.

He really made a mess of things for us by not following ALPA policy and I don't think he's learned anything judging by his lack of action as time wore on.

Recall him before its too late. Find a Pres that will handle a merger and not allow things to spiral into decertification.

 

[woody]

Anything that can block this merger in my book is a positive. NWA can do fine on its own! Lets hope between ALPA's incompetence,Oberstar, NWA's MEC that they can put the toothpaste back in the tube!

 

[Flopgut]

When Reagan fired the controllers it was a signal to mgts everywhere that employees could be ground up like chum. Prater has done the same thing by passing 65. It's open season on anybody who's anything; Steal everything, give nothing back!! Total lack of leadership on Prater's part and he could care less.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Not that I like having to defend ALPA national.....but I don't suppose the arrogance and greed of all the mainline MECs acting on their own has anything to do with this quagmire....

The roots of this problem started long before Prater took office....

Changing the President of ALPA won't solve this problem....

 

[brainhurts]

Not that I like having to defend ALPA national.....but I don't suppose the arrogance and greed of all the mainline MECs acting on their own has anything to do with this quagmire....

The roots of this problem started long before Prater took office....

Changing the President of ALPA won't solve this problem....

100% Agreee.

 

[IronCityBlue]

Not that I like having to defend ALPA national.....but I don't suppose the arrogance and greed of all the mainline MECs acting on their own has anything to do with this quagmire....

The roots of this problem started long before Prater took office....

Changing the President of ALPA won't solve this problem....

You're right about that. So that brings us to the issue of the role of ALPA (or any national union). Should a national union dictate things to unwilling groups, like a tyrranical federal government? Should it bow down to the individual whims of each and every individual pilot group with no sense of a broader quality control? And whichever way it governs, can or should the national union prevent a group from seperating if it didn't get its way? If so, how would that be accomplished?

 

[PCL_128]

Not that I like having to defend ALPA national.....but I don't suppose the arrogance and greed of all the mainline MECs acting on their own has anything to do with this quagmire....

The roots of this problem started long before Prater took office....

Changing the President of ALPA won't solve this problem....

Prater should be the one to stop the individual MECs from going off the reservation. He apparently doesn't have the balls or the desire to do so. As a result, it's quite possible that he'll end up destroying ALPA. I give it about a 60/40 chance that uSAPa will succeed on Thursday, and there's a distinct possibility that uSAPa 2.0 will result from the NWA/DAL merger. If both of them leave ALPA, then the Association is in real trouble.

 

[IronCityBlue]

Prater should be the one to stop the individual MECs from going off the reservation. He apparently doesn't have the balls or the desire to do so. As a result, it's quite possible that he'll end up destroying ALPA. I give it about a 60/40 chance that uSAPa will succeed on Thursday, and there's a distinct possibility that uSAPa 2.0 will result from the NWA/DAL merger. If both of them leave ALPA, then the Association is in real trouble.

If USAPA is successful, it will only be because of the larger number of USAir pilots. In the DAL/NWA scenario, DAL is the larger, so a split from ALPA is very unlikely (unless there is a mass RJ PID0-II that is).

 

[JoeMerchant]

Prater should be the one to stop the individual MECs from going off the reservation. He apparently doesn't have the balls or the desire to do so. As a result, it's quite possible that he'll end up destroying ALPA. I give it about a 60/40 chance that uSAPa will succeed on Thursday, and there's a distinct possibility that uSAPa 2.0 will result from the NWA/DAL merger. If both of them leave ALPA, then the Association is in real trouble.

The Association has been "in real trouble" for quite some time....it's just taken a few of the cheerleaders a while longer to realize it...Of course the first step is admiting you have a problem....Herndon we have a problem.....

I find it ironic that you and Occam now want ALPA to "do what is right"....Neither of you care when mainline MEC's dictate the conditions to regional pilots.....You both repeatedly say that we have no right to that flying.....Isn't the DAL MEC doing what is within their "rights"....Are you now going to tell me that doesn't apply when they do it to another mainline group...only when they do it to a regional group?

You arguments are very similar to those of the RJDC.....Funny how things work.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

If USAPA is successful, it will only be because of the larger number of USAir pilots. In the DAL/NWA scenario, DAL is the larger, so a split from ALPA is very unlikely (unless there is a mass RJ PID0-II that is).

I would pay good money to watch the NWA MEC get together with the CMR, Mesaba, and Medex folks and file a PID....We could sell tickets to that event in Herndon...

 

[IronCityBlue]

I would pay good money to watch the NWA MEC get together with the CMR, Mesaba, and Medex folks and file a PID....We could sell tickets to that event in Herndon...

Yeah but even with the most incompetent, drunk, senile arbotrator the NWA pilots wouldn't have to worry about losing seniority to thousands of additional RJ pilots thrown into the mix. There are many other ways for the NWA pilots to apply leverage besides adding an additional, masive layer of risk to their own outcome.

 

[pianoman]

He really made a mess of things for us by not following ALPA policy and I don't think he's learned anything judging by his lack of action as time wore on.

Recall him before its too late. Find a Pres that will handle a merger and not allow things to spiral into decertification.

Prater did or the merger committee chairman? Does Prater have the power to unilaterally overturn an award?

I have worked with John Prater and know him to be a decent person who is very mindful of the rules of an organization.

I'm not arguing whether the award is fair or not. What I want to know is- what would you have done if you were ALPA president as this went down?

I have no doubt he's been in close contact with both MEC's throughout this deal. Just because he doesn't release the details of every conversation to the general public doesn't mean he's not involved.

 

[Crzipilot]

Make all the MEC's independant, with no oversight via National. National simply becomes a service provider of Insurance and AeroMedical and a PAC.... Wipe out the EVP setc etc...send them back to their airlines, and let the individual airlines MEC's do their thing. Negotiate their own contracts as they see fit, with whatever scope/merger conditions they see fit. No approval from National nothing, zip, nada. Let it simply be a service provider, and that's it.

 

[Jonny Sacko]

Make every employee of OURS in Herndon take a 60% pay cut, Toss chunky out for not abiding the majorities demands, or watch a bunch of regionals control ALPA, as they will be the larger group. Praters a total and COMPLETE sell out. F him, and Lynch, the two idiots that pushed this entire abortion called ALPA now. F Prater

 

[Prog 2/2]

What I want to know is- what would you have done if you were ALPA president as this went down?

1) present the list to the company immediately after it was rendered. I mean immediately. Prater dithered about for months, and every day that passed gave credence to the east's idea that the list was "unfair".

2) Make it clearly known that, absent fraud, the list will be defended and implemented as per the Transition Agreement signed by both MECs.

3) Force compliance with that Transition Agreement or put the east in trusteeship and negotiate for them. They walked out of the Joint Contract Negotiations, in contravention of the Transition Agreement they signed, and nobody at national said a word.

4) Remove, through trusteeship, any LEC whose officers do not support the association. Many of those who held local office on the east were, and remain, closet USAPA supporters. This is not a new development, it has been ongoing since USAPA first reared its head.

5) Compel release to the east membership of the arbitration transcripts so that they can at least be exposed to the idea that it was the boneheaded, unwavering position of their selected Merger Comm(DOH) that led them to this arbitration decision, not some collosal "failure of the ALPA merger policy". It won't change their minds, but it is a truth it wouldn't have hurt them to hear.


Both Prater and the EC have waffled, formed committees, stalled, and allowed false expectations to take hold that are now coming to roost.

USAPA was born in that vacuum of indecision.

A little more vigorous leadership, much earlier in the process, would have protected the assocation much better in the end.

 

[vetrider]

Here's Praters dilemma now. "Gee, who should I favor here? Hmmmm, its not so clear cut now. Hmmmm, what should I do? Hmmmmm"

Actually the dipstick will probably stay neutral because he can't figure out who to favor here. Just like he should have done the first time.

 

[flygirlqt]

Make every employee of OURS in Herndon take a 60% pay cut, Toss chunky out for not abiding the majorities demands, or watch a bunch of regionals control ALPA, as they will be the larger group. Praters a total and COMPLETE sell out. F him, and Lynch, the two idiots that pushed this entire abortion called ALPA now. F Prater

I'm thinking more like a 100% pay cut. I am fed up watching my union dues fund incompetence. Combined with their pay and benefits I feel as if I am getting ripped off every month.

 

[Bad-Andy]

blah, blah, blah, blah..................

Prater is evil. Prater is the source of all problems in the airline industry. We're all doomed in this profession because of Prater. Gee, maybe Prater is the Big, Bad Wolf.....

Get real... The US Airways deal is screwed up because a couple of idiots on the east (the MEC at the time and one fine gentleman that even ran to Air Tran) would not listen to reason and kept pushing for an unreachable goal. A senile old arbitrator punished them for it. And now, instead of being good winners a few idiots on the west (mostly anonymous internet posters and people putting profane stickers on the jetways) are acting like spoiled children. With or without Prater it would be just as F-ed up. The same idiots would still be on both sides.

As for age 65, again, let's blame ALPA. The sad reality is a bunch of greedy old farts bought off a few congressmen and senators (one congressman from PA, a friend of my parents, was actually trying to argue the merits of age 65 over the Holidays to me). Do you know what the original language said (what the old bastards wanted passed)? They wanted everyone that had already retired to come back to their original seniority. You know who stopped that? Prater (actually ALPA PAC). ALPA realized it was going to happen, and at least by joining them, they had some say in the rule... We were betrayed by our own union "brothers," not the leadership. You want to take out your anger on anyone, let's make it the age 60+ SOBs...

All that said, Prater may not be perfect, and he may have made some mistakes. But, think how bad it would be if that idiot Worth(less) was still in office....

 

[Prog 2/2]

blah, blah, blah, blah..................

Prater is evil. Prater is the source of all problems in the airline industry. We're all doomed in this profession because of Prater. Gee, maybe Prater is the Big, Bad Wolf.....

Get real... The US Airways deal is screwed up because a couple of idiots on the east (the MEC at the time and one fine gentleman that even ran to Air Tran) would not listen to reason and kept pushing for an unreachable goal. A senile old arbitrator punished them for it. And now, instead of being good winners a few idiots on the west (mostly anonymous internet posters and people putting profane stickers on the jetways) are acting like spoiled children. With or without Prater it would be just as F-ed up. The same idiots would still be on both sides.

As for age 65, again, let's blame ALPA. The sad reality is a bunch of greedy old farts bought off a few congressmen and senators (one congressman from PA, a friend of my parents, was actually trying to argue the merits of age 65 over the Holidays to me). Do you know what the original language said (what the old bastards wanted passed)? They wanted everyone that had already retired to come back to their original seniority. You know who stopped that? Prater (actually ALPA PAC). ALPA realized it was going to happen, and at least by joining them, they had some say in the rule... We were betrayed by our own union "brothers," not the leadership. You want to take out your anger on anyone, let's make it the age 60+ SOBs...

All that said, Prater may not be perfect, and he may have made some mistakes. But, think how bad it would be if that idiot Worth(less) was still in office....

With such learned, well reasoned, intelligent minds like yours at work, I'm sure that all this will work out in the end.

 

[waveflyer]

be careful prog-
too much truth will destroy flightinfo's rep.

The problem isn't w/ alpa- and it's not w/ the MEC's or LEC's- it's with how we do seniority- and in your case- the general membership of the east and never having a majority willing to stand up and do the right thing and fully participate. The problem is that in the mid-80's hiring was so great that many saw quick seniority and upgrades and just got busy being "successful". No need to participate in their union from their perspective-they were successful and that clearly had everything to do w/ their superior judgement and flying abilities. Same thing at American. 'B-scales are okay as long as my career gets better b/c of it.' (i swear i think some of you are jealous that AA got to have TWA pilots as b-scale/too much growth furlough fodder and you didn't)

And then the furloughs hit as massive expansion usually will lead to contraction- the pilots left w/ a vote still had this huge sense of selfishness and entitlement. At every step- those pilots about to retire (before 65) took steps to first, accelerate- then, protect their individual career to the detriment of the pilot industry. When it came back on them, they didn't like it.

10 years and 93 LOA's that you didn't vote on- and you blame it on your MEC? There are airlines upon alpa airlines where you couldn't have 1 LOA be implemented w/o a vote. At some point AAA pilots will have to face how they engage in unionism. That it doesn't work when they CHOOSE to sell out the junior pilots. When you sell out even 1 of your pilots for your gain- you deserve what happens to you. And you all DID choose to sell out those that came after you=- time and again...

 

[Bad-Andy]

With such learned, well reasoned, intelligent minds like yours at work, I'm sure that all this will work out in the end.

Which part was not learned, well reasoned, intelligent, etc? I would say the same thing back to everyone that is trying to place the blame for all of our problems (company specific as well as industry wide) on one man's shoulders. Go ahead and throw him out (assuming we are still ALPA after Thursday, disregard if we are not...). What will it accomplish? Nothing. Nada. Zip. Zero. Zilch. The next guy will be just as bad (or probably even worse if you look at history...).

As for it working out in the end, who knows... It may, or it may just be a train wreck. That's beyond my control...

 

[ferlo]

As long as DALPA MEC isn't as stupid, arrogant, and entitled as the US Air EAST MEC was, they shouldn't have a problem.

Also, I don't know how else to explain this anymore...ALPA national had NOTHING to do with the US Air fiasco...greedy arrogant Eastholes put themselves in this position and it will be them again to blame when this airline goes extinct.

 

[Raoul Duke]

USAPA is going to win 100%. It is the wrong outcome but it is what is going to happen. Just as the NWA DL merger will happen. Bush will give the Dems one last f u on his way out. Keep in mind that congress cannot prevent a merger, they can only hold hearings and hope that the DOJ and DOT listen. It will not happen and the merger will go through.

 

[IronCityBlue]

I'm thinking more like a 100% pay cut. I am fed up watching my union dues fund incompetence. Combined with their pay and benefits I feel as if I am getting ripped off every month.

You have the best signature line EVER! That's awesome! Good catch.

 

[Lampshade]

Prater lead with weakness, and its all ending in chaos. Bring back Duane W. LOL

 

[flygirlqt]

You have the best signature line EVER! That's awesome! Good catch.

Thanks!

 

[PCL_128]

The Association has been "in real trouble" for quite some time....it's just taken a few of the cheerleaders a while longer to realize it...Of course the first step is admiting you have a problem....Herndon we have a problem.....

I find it ironic that you and Occam now want ALPA to "do what is right"....Neither of you care when mainline MEC's dictate the conditions to regional pilots.....You both repeatedly say that we have no right to that flying.....Isn't the DAL MEC doing what is within their "rights"....Are you now going to tell me that doesn't apply when they do it to another mainline group...only when they do it to a regional group?

You arguments are very similar to those of the RJDC.....Funny how things work.....

Your continued attempts to compare scope between a mainline carrier and a regional to a merger between two mainline carriers is ridiculous. I know it bugs you Joey, but they aren't the same things.

 

[PCL_128]

Make all the MEC's independant, with no oversight via National. National simply becomes a service provider of Insurance and AeroMedical and a PAC.... Wipe out the EVP setc etc...send them back to their airlines, and let the individual airlines MEC's do their thing. Negotiate their own contracts as they see fit, with whatever scope/merger conditions they see fit. No approval from National nothing, zip, nada. Let it simply be a service provider, and that's it.

That's exactly the opposite of what needs to happen. Power needs to be consolidated in Herndon. Enough of the independent MEC bullsh--. Time for ALPA National to exert some control.

 

[PCL_128]

But, think how bad it would be if that idiot Worth(less) was still in office....

Prater isn't even fit to shine Woerth's shoes.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Your continued attempts to compare scope between a mainline carrier and a regional to a merger between two mainline carriers is ridiculous. I know it bugs you Joey, but they aren't the same things.

The fact that Occam is complaining about being excluded from the table is EXACTLY the same thing....What DALPA did is legal....

You are making our case that a double standard still exists.....