Retired Airline... 135 pilots

[J3 Guy]

I am simply saying that most of that equipment is the result of, or by products of 121 accidents. Who ever heard of a state of the art piece of electronic equipment for a 777 as a result of a Lear accident?
Retired 121 pilots are one of the largest detrement to the 91/135 profession. They chose the 121 side of the fence, now they are screwing the professionals that decided the 91/135 route. They accept jobs for peanuts, and pay for training.


J3

 

[Spooky 2]

I am simply saying that most of that equipment is the result or by products of 121 accidents. Who ever heard of a state of the art piece of electronic equipment for a 777 as a result of a Lear accident?
Retired 121 pilots are one of the largest detrement to the 91/135 profession. They chose the 121 side of the fence, now they screwing every body by working for peanuts and paying for training.

J3

J3Guy, my apologies for being harsh with your previous post. The fact is that there has been a lot of blood spilled by mostly airline pilots during the evolution in jet aircraft transporation and the assoiciated electronic equipment. I'm an old guy by anyones standards and I recall that something as benign as DME and coded xpnders were not around when the first B707 and DC8's were pressed into service. A mid air over down town NY with the resultant loss of life was the defining event for DME being required on airliners. Keep in mind that there were no corporate jets back in 1961, just Loadstars,
D18's and a few DC3's The G1 was still around the corner. Ditto for the coded transponders. Mid airs, more traffic like the J3 like your flying has necessitated many of these requirements.

So can you point to a piece of equipment on your aircraft that does not enhance your safety? I think most of the pilots on the board welcome all the feature possible to make their jobs more efficient (ATC) and safe.

FYI, I do not subscribe to the retired airline pilots screwing you over pay wise. Certainly not a factor in my case nor my most recent employeer which pays a screaming $1,500 per day for contract pilots, pays for their training at this ame rate BTW. You sound a little bit naive and frankly your sour grapes probably creeps into some other aspects of your operation. Suggest you take a deep breath and see if there are any errors in your judgement here. If you think airlines and the airline pilots are the root of all your problems...well?

 

[CelticCitation]

I have a little different perspective, and since this has been such a friendly discussion, thought I might add it.

It isn't 121 v. 135, it's culture. Just as every major airline has a company culture that a new hire is expected to assimilate to, each corp. flight department/135 operation has it's own culture. Airline pilots all make effort to fit into the mold, along with the 6000 other pilots at their company. A lot of corp. flight departments have fewer than 20 pilots, and they all know each other. Someone coming from a major undoubtably has sufficient skills, judgement, and whatever else it takes to accomplish our jobs. What they rarely have is the desire to assimilate. Anyone who has flown with an airline guy has heard repeatedly, At Delta (or wherever) we do it like this. Unless this person was hired to introduce an airline culture, that is seldom welcome.

That isn't just limited to airline guys. Anyone coming with a lot of experience with one organization has a difficult time not trying to make their old job like their new job. I stopped even looking at resumes with 12000 hours, whether it be airline, other 135, or whatever. In the interviews, they pretty much tell you what they expect of you, and rarely want to know what they can do to fit in. We haven't hired off the street for several years, and everyone is happier that way. Not that we would never hire a 121/high time/whatever else pilot, it just is hard to find someone to fit a culture from the pilot pool at large.

 

[Spooky 2]

I have a little different perspective, and since this has been such a friendly discussion, thought I might add it.

It isn't 121 v. 135, it's culture. Just as every major airline has a company culture that a new hire is expected to assimilate to, each corp. flight department/135 operation has it's own culture. Airline pilots all make effort to fit into the mold, along with the 6000 other pilots at their company. A lot of corp. flight departments have fewer than 20 pilots, and they all know each other. Someone coming from a major undoubtably has sufficient skills, judgement, and whatever else it takes to accomplish our jobs. What they rarely have is the desire to assimilate. Anyone who has flown with an airline guy has heard repeatedly, At Delta (or wherever) we do it like this. Unless this person was hired to introduce an airline culture, that is seldom welcome.

That isn't just limited to airline guys. Anyone coming with a lot of experience with one organization has a difficult time not trying to make their old job like their new job. I stopped even looking at resumes with 12000 hours, whether it be airline, other 135, or whatever. In the interviews, they pretty much tell you what they expect of you, and rarely want to know what they can do to fit in. We haven't hired off the street for several years, and everyone is happier that way. Not that we would never hire a 121/high time/whatever else pilot, it just is hard to find someone to fit a culture from the pilot pool at large.

You certainly have valid points, but my digression was directed at safety equipment and J3 blaming it on the inept airline pilots. Only a fool would board that train of thought IMO. I simply cannot make the connection other than a lot of airline pilots have died, some by doing things that we would never consider today and others simply victims of circumstance, even though they may have been held to blame.

 

[CA1900]

Definitely illegal. Thanks for making me laugh though!

Illegal? I don't believe so. Flying without a dispatch release is illegal in the 121 world, but there's nothing that requires the ATC flight plan to be filed directly by the dispatcher.

I've had many occasions where, due to computer failure or dispatcher overload, I've had to file my own flight plan with flight service.

 

[J3 Guy]

I could care less about airline pilots.

J3

 

[Spooky 2]

I could care less about airline pilots.

J3

J3 Guy your sounding and more like a guy who has been turned down by the airlines. Again I'll ask the question, what piece of needless equipment is on your aircraft that is because of some airline issue?

 

[ILOVEBEER]

Illegal? I don't believe so. Flying without a dispatch release is illegal in the 121 world, but there's nothing that requires the ATC flight plan to be filed directly by the dispatcher.

I've had many occasions where, due to computer failure or dispatcher overload, I've had to file my own flight plan with flight service.

I guess that really depends on what your ops specs say. At my previous airline, all flights needed a dispatch release (even part 91) per the ops specs, and that makes it law. The way I read CV's post was that he was trying to depart without a release since I have never heard of a flight being released without a flight plan. Maybe I just read it wrong but I don't think so.

Another example is visibility required for takeoff. Under part 91 the regs say that you can depart zero-zero but our ops specs said that it must be 1/4 mile to depart on a part 91 flight. We were good to go at 600 RVR on a 121 flight so the 91 flight was more restrictive. So if the ops specs say 1/4 mile, can I disregard that and go with the regs? I think not.

 

[BushwickBill]

Mostly I have noticed one problem with airline pilots. Keep in mind that these are not airline pilots that have done some kind of 91 flying on the side, these guys usually work out ok.

Mostly an airline pilot has not had to work very hard for the past 30 years or so.

What I notice being a pilot is that they dont help out too much with the non glamor stuff: ie cabin cleaning, supervision of fueling, lav service on small aircraft and dealing with a fluid schedule.

Our chief pilot and I had a good smack talking session over beers after our latest and greatest airline pilot had been asked to leave. He metioned: inability to deal with a fluid schedule, odd flight planning (a fuel stop in Houston from North Dakota to So Cal?), did not listen to other pilots, did not want to be away from home and worst of all when asked to do something the guy would say "that is not in my contract."

We dont have a contract... none of the pilots do.

So we had a good laugh over that. We've had good luck with one airline guy and I really belive it is a personality issue not the fact they are airline pilots.

However it seems like the 121 world molds it's pilots in a similar fasion....

 

[Spooky 2]

Mostly I have noticed one problem with airline pilots. Keep in mind that these are not airline pilots that have done some kind of 91 flying on the side, these guys usually work out ok.

Mostly an airline pilot has not had to work very hard for the past 30 years or so.

What I notice being a pilot is that they dont help out too much with the non glamor stuff: ie cabin cleaning, supervision of fueling, lav service on small aircraft and dealing with a fluid schedule.

Our chief pilot and I had a good smack talking session over beers after our latest and greatest airline pilot had been asked to leave. He metioned: inability to deal with a fluid schedule, odd flight planning (a fuel stop in Houston from North Dakota to So Cal?), did not listen to other pilots, did not want to be away from home and worst of all when asked to do something the guy would say "that is not in my contract."

We dont have a contract... none of the pilots do.

So we had a good laugh over that. We've had good luck with one airline guy and I really belive it is a personality issue not the fact they are airline pilots.

However it seems like the 121 world molds it's pilots in a similar fasion....

Your right, most 121 guys are cast from the same mold, sop's are probably one of the biggest difference you will notice when you observe 121 vs 91 ops in any aircraft, be it a Citation or a GV. Seems like the 91 guys all ahve their very own set of standards and most of them could pass for vodoo flying techniques at best. Also right about airline guys not getting the big service picture that 135/91 ops frequently require. However most of them will "get it" if properly trained as that is one thing 121 pilots are very use to...training. I'm sorry your experince with 121 pilots has been less than satisfactory. It's to bad as there is so much that both groups could learn from each other.

I have several friends who have made the leap from 121 to 91 and two of them are now running Fortune 500, multi aircraft operations with pay checks well north of 250K, so don't cry to me that airline guys are under cutting your pay scales as these guys have brought everyone in their flight departments up with them. I was the CP in a corporate flight department where paid all of our FA in excess of 110K, and the pilots, mechanics all enjoyed very generous incomes, so I have a hard time sheding tears for your sistuation.

 

[BushwickBill]

Your right, most 121 guys are cast from the same mold, sop's are probably one of the biggest difference you will notice when you observe 121 vs 91 ops in any aircraft, be it a Citation or a GV. Seems like the 91 guys all ahve their very own set of standards and most of them could pass for vodoo flying techniques at best. Also right about airline guys not getting the big service picture that 135/91 ops frequently require. However most of them will "get it" if properly trained as that is one thing 121 pilots are very use to...training. I'm sorry your experince with 121 pilots has been less than satisfactory. It's to bad as there is so much that both groups could learn from each other.

I have several friends who have made the leap from 121 to 91 and two of them are now running Fortune 500, multi aircraft operations with pay checks well north of 250K, so don't cry to me that airline guys are under cutting your pay scales as these guys have brought everyone in their flight departments up with them. I was the CP in a corporate flight department where paid all of our FA in excess of 110K, and the pilots, mechanics all enjoyed very generous incomes, so I have a hard time sheding tears for your sistuation.

Did I mention something about pay?

Just to repeat myself I didn't mention anything about pay.

I will reassert that a 121 pilot will not like working as hard as I do. Unless they have been doing 135 flying on the side and they know what the deal is.

 

[Spooky 2]

Did I mention something about pay?

Just to repeat myself I didn't mention anything about pay.

I will reassert that a 121 pilot will not like working as hard as I do. Unless they have been doing 135 flying on the side and they know what the deal is.

Sorry for the pay infusion. Others seem to think that airline pilots are somehow lowering the bar. I don't think so but maybe?

As for 135 being harder than 121, maybe you should try some of the Part 121 ACMI operators and ask them about their operations. Totallt different than any Part 135, but none the less a lot of work.

Keep up the good work!

 

[J3 Guy]

After 25 years in the Corp side of the biz, I have never heard of anyone in the Biz making north of 250k.
Maybe the 3 guys on the planet that earn that are extremely lucky.
As a rule its the majority of 121 folks that will accept the lower pay and a unfair training contract.
Its one thing when your starting out and trying to get your foot in the door and just happy to have a paycheck.
Like Bushwick said, they dont understand the big picture.
Spooky---GPWS

 

[Spooky 2]

After 25 years in the Corp side of the biz, I have never heard of anyone in the Biz making north of 250k.
Maybe the 3 guys on the planet that earn that are extremely lucky.
As a rule its the majority of 121 folks that will accept the lower pay and a unfair training contract.
Its one thing when your starting out and trying to get your foot in the door and just happy to have a paycheck.
Like Bushwick said, they dont understand the big picture.
Spooky---GPWS

Sorry to burst your bubble but the guys making this money are former 121 guys who bailed around age 56. I simply do not agree that 121 guys are lowering the bar. Maybe it's just in the equipment that you operate. No contracts, no BS, just honest wages.

 

[J3 Guy]

So...Spooky, how many former 121 pilots do you personally know that make over 250k?

Might be good info for ex ATA pilots, they might find a corporate gig starting at 175k, plus or minus a few k.

 

[Spooky 2]

So...Spooky, how many former 121 pilots do you personally know that make over 250k?

Might be good info for ex ATA pilots, they might find a corporate gig starting at 175k, plus or minus a few k.

Well I not privy to everyone's W2, but I'm confident based upon what I do know that in my very small circle there are at least five or possibly six guys making that and all have previous 121 backgrounds, mostly DAL and UAL. 175K is a no brainer if your in the GV/GEX/Boeing category on the west coast. So what's your point? This whole discussion with you revolved around how the airlines have caused you to equip your aircraft with needless safety feature because of those airline pilots you seem to hate so much?

 

[Say Again Over]

You're right Spooky, most training at 135 operations is done with smoke and mirrors, along with MEL and flight time procedures.

 

[transpac]

I was paired up during Learjet 20 series initial with a mid-60's ex-airline type with around 30,000 hours pilot time a few years ago. We ended up working for the same company. He had my experience about five times over, so he was the Captain whenever I flew with him. We flew all over the US, Canada, and Mexico and NDB approaches were probably the most common type. He knew his stuff and flew the little Lear like it was on rails. He was easily the most competent pilot I've ever had the pleasure of flying with. I've since flown with a ton of ex-121 types and have never had an occasion to doubt their ability. I don't know where this crap about ex-121 pilots comes from. Sounds like sour grapes to me.