ASA MEC re-elects same officers

[PCL_128]

Or so I thought. What actually happened is that I was succeeded by lap dogs who gave them the rubber stamp they were looking for. Then they labeled those of us who tried to blow the whistle on what was really happening with the contract as traitors and publicly humiliated us.

It takes patience. As Rez says often, ALPA is a democracy. You can't control the entire organization, you can only control your own vote and your own actions. If people get elected to the other MEC positions that hinder progress, you simply have to wait it out and do your best to make what progress you can. That might mean that it takes you years to accomplish certain goals, but you can't simply throw up your hands and give up. Patience is a virtue in politics.

 

[ifly4food]

It takes patience. As Rez says often, ALPA is a democracy. You can't control the entire organization, you can only control your own vote and your own actions. If people get elected to the other MEC positions that hinder progress, you simply have to wait it out and do your best to make what progress you can. That might mean that it takes you years to accomplish certain goals, but you can't simply throw up your hands and give up. Patience is a virtue in politics.

If you think ALPA is a democracy, look no further than the Executive Council for proof otherwise. How many votes do the mainline groups get compared to everybody else?

And patience may be a virtue, but it doesn't help when you're term limited, and you only have a finite time to accomplish your goals. Once an FO rep upgrades, he can't run again except as a captain rep. Which usually goes to the more senior candidates.

 

[JoeMerchant]

What happens when the "problem" grows faster than the "slow democratic process"......The fire keeps jumping the fire line.....

Whether it be scope/fee for departure in ALPA.....or issues such as Soc.Sec/Medicare/entitlement programs in government.....We can't afford "slow"....The problems are growing faster than the politicians "solutions"....The larger the problem gets...the tougher the solution....

Sometimes you have to touch that "third rail".....but you can't if you want to work within the system......

 

[PCL_128]

If you think ALPA is a democracy, look no further than the Executive Council for proof otherwise. How many votes do the mainline groups get compared to everybody else?

That's simply a function of the number of pilots at these mainline carriers. The bigger groups will obviously get more of a say. That's the very root of democracy. As the regional carriers grow and more are added, they achieve more of a voice on the EC. This is no different than the US House of Representatives, in which the bigger states have more votes. The EB acts like the US Senate, in that every carrier has equal footing. That's why ALPA has a system of checks and balances.

And patience may be a virtue, but it doesn't help when you're term limited, and you only have a finite time to accomplish your goals. Once an FO rep upgrades, he can't run again except as a captain rep. Which usually goes to the more senior candidates.

There are many ways to get involved, not just as a status rep. Run for an MEC Officer position. Why did you decide not to run for MEC Office this time? You seem to be unhappy with the current slate of Officers, so why not run to replace one of them?

 

[ifly4food]

That's simply a function of the number of pilots at these mainline carriers. The bigger groups will obviously get more of a say. That's the very root of democracy. As the regional carriers grow and more are added, they achieve more of a voice on the EC. This is no different than the US House of Representatives, in which the bigger states have more votes. The EB acts like the US Senate, in that every carrier has equal footing. That's why ALPA has a system of checks and balances.

That's not true. Right now, regional pilots make up about 45% of ALPA, but only get 4 EC votes (5 if you include Couette) and share them with the small freight carriers (ABX/Astar) and US Airways East/West. The canuks get one vote, but swing wither way. Meanwhile, FDX, DAL, UAL, NWA, and CAL each get a vote, plus the other national officers (Prater, Rice, Beebe) are mainline. That's 8-5, and is not a democracy.

 

[Speedtape]

That's not true. Right now, regional pilots make up about 45% of ALPA, but only get 4 EC votes (5 if you include Couette) and share them with the small freight carriers (ABX/Astar) and US Airways East/West. The canuks get one vote, but swing wither way. Meanwhile, FDX, DAL, UAL, NWA, and CAL each get a vote, plus the other national officers (Prater, Rice, Beebe) are mainline. That's 8-5, and is not a democracy.

John Pennecamp,

Too bad you don't have a political bone in your body! How many nomination votes did you get in the last election? Yes, it's a democratic process!

 

[ifly4food]

John Pennecamp,

Too bad you don't have a political bone in your body! How many nomination votes did you get in the last election? Yes, it's a democratic process!

John who?

I could have counted to 10 and waited for the predictable response from 'ol attack dog Speedtape. The MEC's number one hit man against anyone who speaks the truth. His weapon... public embarrassment, personal attacks, and attempts to out people. He proved my above point very well, don't you think? They punish dissent.

Speedtape, why are they so afraid of dissenters? And if this is a democracy, why do you try to shame those who dissent into silence? Finally, if I have no credibility, why go to such great lengths to discredit me?

 

[ifly4food]

Guess the cat got his tongue. It must be "busy" over in the corner office of the ASA MEC. After all, he just got re-elected so now he needs to put in his ALPA leave for another two years.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

If you think ALPA is a democracy, look no further than the Executive Council for proof otherwise. How many votes do the mainline groups get compared to everybody else?

Are there more mainline pilots than everyone else?

And patience may be a virtue, but it doesn't help when you're term limited, and you only have a finite time to accomplish your goals. Once an FO rep upgrades, he can't run again except as a captain rep. Which usually goes to the more senior candidates.

So.... there are limits... is there an organization in your life...or even yourself that doesn't have limits?

Regardless... what do you suggests?

 

[ifly4food]

nevermind.

 

[DoinTime]

ALPA is NOT a democracy!

ALPA is structured very similarly to the United States government. The Executive Council is a bit skewed but they are the lowest level of National decision makers. The Executive Board and ultimately the Board of Directors can overturn any lower level decisions. Both EB and BOD votes reflect the head count at different classes of carriers.

Or so I thought. What actually happened is that I was succeeded by lap dogs who gave them the rubber stamp they were looking for. Then they labeled those of us who tried to blow the whistle on what was really happening with the contract as traitors and publicly humiliated us.

All of your arguments and accusations made here today have one fundamental flaw. They assume that you are one who is right and everyone else is wrong. I wish I could say that was uncommon pilot behavior.

 

[WWEfan]

Or so I thought. What actually happened is that I was succeeded by lap dogs who gave them the rubber stamp they were looking for. Then they labeled those of us who tried to blow the whistle on what was really happening with the contract as traitors and publicly humiliated us.

Who called you a traitor and publicly humiliated you?

 

[FightingIrish]

I'm pretty happy with our current leadership. I am currently on a committee and spend a lot of time in the ALPA office. They do understand the other side and they are very frustrated with the whipsaw. They are also skeptical of ALPA national. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Danny especially understands how bad ALPA national has screwed this up. Nick understands also. Some however are just using it to move onto Delta. There are some real kissups.

 

[WWEfan]

Who called you a traitor and publicly humiliated you?

Nevermind. I should have read further down the thread and I would have answered my own question.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Democracy.....or "majority rules"....isn't all it is cracked up to be......

 

[JoeMerchant]

Democracy..... ain't it a bitsh........

.....and flawed.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

I actually agree that you should keep your debates behind closed doors.

Dont you remember when Sonny Corleone spoke out at his family's meeting with Sollozzo? His obvious dissension from his father's ideas prompted the whole mob war. If he had kept his thoughts within the family he would have avoided a lot of bloodshed.

Here's the problem with that....

DU, one of the current MEC members, will tell you "off the record" that ALPA is flawed regarding scope and whipsaw....However "on the record" he tows the "party line".....

We have both a conflict of interest and a whipsaw problem within ALPA....one that ALPA has studied for 13 years now.....Towing the party line prevents the membership from understanding that current MEC members have serious issues with ALPA......

You would be surprised at the ASA and CMR leadership that supported RJDC.....Why are we supporting a union that we have to sue?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Joe...in 50 years you will exonerated and hailed as the all mighty visionay... it will be read in Flying the Line Vol. XIX. It will be better than Rocky V.

The Herndon Bldg. that you despise so much will be called Merchants.

 

[JoeMerchant]

The Herndon Bldg. that you despise so much will be called Merchants.

....actually it will probably be sold to pay for all the lawsuits....just like the DC building was......

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

....actually it will probably be sold to pay for all the lawsuits....just like the DC building was......

Like your Lawsuit?

Joe... you were an ALPA officer at one time... what happened?

A. Did you not understand how ALPA worked and were niave?

B. Was there a significant change at ALPA and it just wasn't the organization you signed up for?

C. Is your sociopolitical skillset so weak that your effectiveness was basically nil?

 

[shamrock]

....and the one that told us "the pilots are stupid"....is leaving soon.....He has no long term vested interest one way or the other.......

SH or MS?

 

[701EV]

Rez, either you weren't hear or you don't remember, when the RJDC got started the MEC supported the RJDC under the table. When the LEC meetings were adjourned the RJDC meeting would start. As time went on I'm sure the MEC was told by Herndon, you better denouce the RJDC.

Joe, aren't we still waiting for the Bilateral Scope Impact Committee from the 2000 BOD to make a ruling on all of the RJ's?

As far as running I think I'll watch from the skybox for a while.

701EV

 

[JoeMerchant]

Rez, either you weren't hear or you don't remember, when the RJDC got started the MEC supported the RJDC under the table. When the LEC meetings were adjourned the RJDC meeting would start. As time went on I'm sure the MEC was told by Herndon, you better denouce the RJDC.

Joe, aren't we still waiting for the Bilateral Scope Impact Committee from the 2000 BOD to make a ruling on all of the RJ's?

As far as running I think I'll watch from the skybox for a while.

701EV

You would make a good MEC Chair.....think about it....

As far as the BSIC.....I had a conversation with Tom Wychor in 2002. He was the Chairman of the BSIC....I asked him if he had read the 1995 Scope Committee report.....He answered "NO".....Dont ya think the Chairman of the BSIC would at least familiarize himself with the previous ALPA scope committee reports?

Rez probably wasn't even flying when some of us started this battle.....

 

[Speedtape]

John who?

I could have counted to 10 and waited for the predictable response from 'ol attack dog Speedtape. The MEC's number one hit man against anyone who speaks the truth. His weapon... public embarrassment, personal attacks, and attempts to out people. He proved my above point very well, don't you think? They punish dissent.

Speedtape, why are they so afraid of dissenters? And if this is a democracy, why do you try to shame those who dissent into silence? Finally, if I have no credibility, why go to such great lengths to discredit me?

No one is afraid of dissenters, and you did not invent the movement. If you think your ranting has merit, then why do you hide behind your multiple personality screen names? Why not participate in the forum where it might matter? No one said you had no credibility. No one has to go to any lengths to discredit you; you do a pretty good job of doing that yourself. Maybe, that is the way it has always been. Why are you so angry, bitter, vial, and contrary?

 

[JoeMerchant]

No one is afraid of dissenters, and you did not invent the movement. If you think your ranting has merit, then why do you hide behind your multiple personality screen names? Why not participate in the forum where it might matter? No one said you had no credibility. No one has to go to any lengths to discredit you; you do a pretty good job of doing that yourself. Maybe, that is the way it has always been. Why are you so angry, bitter, vial, and contrary?

....sorry but I have to comment on this BS.........ALPA very much is afraid of dissenters....In fact they teach you during leadership training to NEVER dissent in public.....

Why are you such an ALPA cheerleader? Are you aware that DU has said that the RJDC lawsuit helped us here at ASA.....Why are we having to rely on lawsuits to protect our interests?

Why do you hide behind your screen name? I don't hide.....tell us who you are....your not scared are you?

 

[Speedtape]

....sorry but I have to comment on this BS.........ALPA very much is afraid of dissenters....In fact they teach you during leadership training to NEVER dissent in public.....

Why are you such an ALPA cheerleader? Are you aware that DU has said that the RJDC lawsuit helped us here at ASA.....Why are we having to rely on lawsuits to protect our interests?

Why do you hide behind your screen name? I don't hide.....tell us who you are....your not scared are you?

I am not an ALPA cheerleader! Like any other institution governed by man, ALPA has it's flaws. But, it's the only show in town, and irregardless of your lawsuit or it's merits, ALPA has done alot more good for our profession than bad. I know you have read the history. Can you agree with any part of that statement?

Disputes and unresolved disputes are a way of life, and so are lawsuits. Lawsuits are a last resort due to expense and time. RJDC did not file the first lawsuit against ALPA, and your suit probably want be the last one filed. Did it help the ASA pilots? How?

As far as who is who behind the screen names, does that really matter? What matters is the substance of the post!

 

[PCL_128]

....sorry but I have to comment on this BS.........ALPA very much is afraid of dissenters....In fact they teach you during leadership training to NEVER dissent in public.....

Not true, Joe. They simply teach that you should make very clear when dissenting that it is your own personal opinion, and not the official opinion of the MEC. Reps are free to speak their minds, but they also have to take the official opinion of the MEC to the membership.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

....sorry but I have to comment on this BS.........ALPA very much is afraid of dissenters....In fact they teach you during leadership training to NEVER dissent in public.....

Wrong! More perception problems from Johnny...

 

[Texx]

Here's the problem with that....

DU, one of the current MEC members, will tell you "off the record" that ALPA is flawed regarding scope and whipsaw....However "on the record" he tows the "party line".....

Just as he sat in the crew lounge and said he was against the TA and would vote against it. But the MEC voted for it.

 

[HoserASA]

DU, one of the current MEC members, will tell you "off the record" that ALPA is flawed regarding scope and whipsaw....However "on the record" he tows the "party line".....?

Yeah, and then he changes the agreement to suit his needs because he has "kids in college"! Watch out. he's on the PBS "study" committee now. Think he and PD will accept a version that suits them, and not the majority of the pilot group? I do.

Hoser