ASA MEC re-elects same officers

[JoeMerchant]

I agree with ifly. It would have been nice to see new blood? I think we need to shake thing up a little. Perception is reality.

701EV

Actually I think you would be good......:>)....

 

[Texx]

I agree with ifly. It would have been nice to see new blood? I think we need to shake thing up a little. Perception is reality.

701EV

Patience my friend...patience.

 

[SaturnPilot]

I would have to say it's pretty rare for an MEC to elect an "outsider" to an MEC officer position. Generally, these positions come from within the MEC, or at least "trusted" ALPA insiders like committee chairmen or very dedicated committee members.

I think it's rare for outsiders to get elected to officer positions because an officer position is not a very good place to start out and "learn the ropes". In order to be effective in that position, it helps greatly if you know how things work in ALPA, and how to get things done. That being said, some MECs regularly elect outsiders. This just happened in the last elections at my airline.

The last thing an MEC wants is someone who isn't going to toe the party line at the table. "Debate" takes place at MEC meetings, but the outcome of the decision is rarely in doubt. Anyone who leave the room and speaks anything other than the party line is considered a traitor, and treated accordingly.

speaking against the MEC isn't seen as much as a "traitor", but more just as not an intelligent way of running things. Think about it, if you were to debate in an MEC meeting about how much money you want in negotiations and then go out and publicize to everyone, "well, the ATL reps wanted to hold out for X million with X work rules, but the CVG reps said they would go down to X million if they got X work rules, etc", you have just made management aware of a disagreement on the MEC that they can then attempt to exploit.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Democracy..... ain't it a bitsh........

 

[WWEfan]

This is true and one of the problems with ALPA.....In fact they teach you this during ALPA leadership training.....remember the USAirways MEC roll playing skit.....Disagree behind closed doors....But never never disagree with ALPA in public.....

I actually agree that you should keep your debates behind closed doors.

Dont you remember when Sonny Corleone spoke out at his family's meeting with Sollozzo? His obvious dissension from his father's ideas prompted the whole mob war. If he had kept his thoughts within the family he would have avoided a lot of bloodshed.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

speaking against the MEC isn't seen as much as a "traitor", but more just as not an intelligent way of running things. Think about it, if you were to debate in an MEC meeting about how much money you want in negotiations and then go out and publicize to everyone, "well, the ATL reps wanted to hold out for X million with X work rules, but the CVG reps said they would go down to X million if they got X work rules, etc", you have just made management aware of a disagreement on the MEC that they can then attempt to exploit.

Well said....

The issue here is effectiveness....

Most wonder why ALPA doesn't do more.... they wonder... why ALPA isn't more effective...

Sinply put... on the local, national and international scene... ALPA isn't regulatory.... therefore ALPA must have consensus.....

Yes, we can argue, debate, disagree and even fight..... behind closed doors... but the minute we show a division in public we will simply be out smarted...divide and conquer..... by hired guns like Ford and Harrison, company, gov't, wall street etc...

The problem is most guys don't realize this.... they get elected to ALPA position with good intentions... but when they encounter the slow grinding methodical and extremely fustrating ways of democracy.... they claim ALPA is fubar and an insiders club....

ALPA can do allot to change this mentality.. and so should the pilots.....

 

[ifly4food]

Well said....

The issue here is effectiveness....

Most wonder why ALPA doesn't do more.... they wonder... why ALPA isn't more effective...

Sinply put... on the local, national and international scene... ALPA isn't regulatory.... therefore ALPA must have consensus.....

Yes, we can argue, debate, disagree and even fight..... behind closed doors... but the minute we show a division in public we will simply be out smarted...divide and conquer..... by hired guns like Ford and Harrison, company, gov't, wall street etc...

The problem is most guys don't realize this.... they get elected to ALPA position with good intentions... but when they encounter the slow grinding methodical and extremely fustrating ways of democracy.... they claim ALPA is fubar and an insiders club....

ALPA can do allot to change this mentality.. and so should the pilots.....

I agree that certain things need not become public, and also that unity is important, but more often than not, this is taken to an extreme level to squelch dissension.

Now as for the notion that some get disgruntled and turn against ALPA, perhaps it's more a case of being recruited, and taking a position thinking you can make a difference, only to learn later that those who recruited you wanted nothing more from you than a rubber stamp. And when you refused to do that, they publicly embarrassed you into submission or often "forgot" to notify you about certain functions.

And if you believe that ALPA (or any other organization of its caliber) isn't an insiders club, you're fooling yourself. ALPA is NOT a democracy!

 

[ifly4food]

I actually agree that you should keep your debates behind closed doors.

Dont you remember when Sonny Corleone spoke out at his family's meeting with Sollozzo? His obvious dissension from his father's ideas prompted the whole mob war. If he had kept his thoughts within the family he would have avoided a lot of bloodshed.

You do realize that The Godfather is a trite Hollywood dramatization that resembles real mob life very little, right? Tony Soprano cracking skulls because they ratted him out is much more realistic.

 

[SaturnPilot]

Now as for the notion that some get disgruntled and turn against ALPA, perhaps it's more a case of being recruited, and taking a position thinking you can make a difference, only to learn later that those who recruited you want nothing more from you than a rubber stamp. As was my experience.

And if you believe that ALPA (or any other organization of its caliber) isn't an insiders club, you're fooling yourself. ALPA is NOT a democracy!

I can understand frustration in the experience you mentioned above. I had some of the same issues when I started volunteering, but as time goes on and new people get elected, the dynamics can change. If you get elected and nobody agrees with you and you can't get anything done, as long as you stay true to your principles, you can easily effect change when new members get elected who may share your views.

 

[ifly4food]

I can understand frustration in the experience you mentioned above. I had some of the same issues when I started volunteering, but as time goes on and new people get elected, the dynamics can change. If you get elected and nobody agrees with you and you can't get anything done, as long as you stay true to your principles, you can easily effect change when new members get elected who may share your views.

Or so I thought. What actually happened is that I was succeeded by lap dogs who gave them the rubber stamp they were looking for. Then they labeled those of us who tried to blow the whistle on what was really happening with the contract as traitors and publicly humiliated us.

 

[PCL_128]

Or so I thought. What actually happened is that I was succeeded by lap dogs who gave them the rubber stamp they were looking for. Then they labeled those of us who tried to blow the whistle on what was really happening with the contract as traitors and publicly humiliated us.

It takes patience. As Rez says often, ALPA is a democracy. You can't control the entire organization, you can only control your own vote and your own actions. If people get elected to the other MEC positions that hinder progress, you simply have to wait it out and do your best to make what progress you can. That might mean that it takes you years to accomplish certain goals, but you can't simply throw up your hands and give up. Patience is a virtue in politics.

 

[ifly4food]

It takes patience. As Rez says often, ALPA is a democracy. You can't control the entire organization, you can only control your own vote and your own actions. If people get elected to the other MEC positions that hinder progress, you simply have to wait it out and do your best to make what progress you can. That might mean that it takes you years to accomplish certain goals, but you can't simply throw up your hands and give up. Patience is a virtue in politics.

If you think ALPA is a democracy, look no further than the Executive Council for proof otherwise. How many votes do the mainline groups get compared to everybody else?

And patience may be a virtue, but it doesn't help when you're term limited, and you only have a finite time to accomplish your goals. Once an FO rep upgrades, he can't run again except as a captain rep. Which usually goes to the more senior candidates.

 

[JoeMerchant]

What happens when the "problem" grows faster than the "slow democratic process"......The fire keeps jumping the fire line.....

Whether it be scope/fee for departure in ALPA.....or issues such as Soc.Sec/Medicare/entitlement programs in government.....We can't afford "slow"....The problems are growing faster than the politicians "solutions"....The larger the problem gets...the tougher the solution....

Sometimes you have to touch that "third rail".....but you can't if you want to work within the system......

 

[PCL_128]

If you think ALPA is a democracy, look no further than the Executive Council for proof otherwise. How many votes do the mainline groups get compared to everybody else?

That's simply a function of the number of pilots at these mainline carriers. The bigger groups will obviously get more of a say. That's the very root of democracy. As the regional carriers grow and more are added, they achieve more of a voice on the EC. This is no different than the US House of Representatives, in which the bigger states have more votes. The EB acts like the US Senate, in that every carrier has equal footing. That's why ALPA has a system of checks and balances.

And patience may be a virtue, but it doesn't help when you're term limited, and you only have a finite time to accomplish your goals. Once an FO rep upgrades, he can't run again except as a captain rep. Which usually goes to the more senior candidates.

There are many ways to get involved, not just as a status rep. Run for an MEC Officer position. Why did you decide not to run for MEC Office this time? You seem to be unhappy with the current slate of Officers, so why not run to replace one of them?

 

[ifly4food]

That's simply a function of the number of pilots at these mainline carriers. The bigger groups will obviously get more of a say. That's the very root of democracy. As the regional carriers grow and more are added, they achieve more of a voice on the EC. This is no different than the US House of Representatives, in which the bigger states have more votes. The EB acts like the US Senate, in that every carrier has equal footing. That's why ALPA has a system of checks and balances.

That's not true. Right now, regional pilots make up about 45% of ALPA, but only get 4 EC votes (5 if you include Couette) and share them with the small freight carriers (ABX/Astar) and US Airways East/West. The canuks get one vote, but swing wither way. Meanwhile, FDX, DAL, UAL, NWA, and CAL each get a vote, plus the other national officers (Prater, Rice, Beebe) are mainline. That's 8-5, and is not a democracy.

 

[Speedtape]

That's not true. Right now, regional pilots make up about 45% of ALPA, but only get 4 EC votes (5 if you include Couette) and share them with the small freight carriers (ABX/Astar) and US Airways East/West. The canuks get one vote, but swing wither way. Meanwhile, FDX, DAL, UAL, NWA, and CAL each get a vote, plus the other national officers (Prater, Rice, Beebe) are mainline. That's 8-5, and is not a democracy.

John Pennecamp,

Too bad you don't have a political bone in your body! How many nomination votes did you get in the last election? Yes, it's a democratic process!

 

[ifly4food]

John Pennecamp,

Too bad you don't have a political bone in your body! How many nomination votes did you get in the last election? Yes, it's a democratic process!

John who?

I could have counted to 10 and waited for the predictable response from 'ol attack dog Speedtape. The MEC's number one hit man against anyone who speaks the truth. His weapon... public embarrassment, personal attacks, and attempts to out people. He proved my above point very well, don't you think? They punish dissent.

Speedtape, why are they so afraid of dissenters? And if this is a democracy, why do you try to shame those who dissent into silence? Finally, if I have no credibility, why go to such great lengths to discredit me?

 

[ifly4food]

Guess the cat got his tongue. It must be "busy" over in the corner office of the ASA MEC. After all, he just got re-elected so now he needs to put in his ALPA leave for another two years.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

If you think ALPA is a democracy, look no further than the Executive Council for proof otherwise. How many votes do the mainline groups get compared to everybody else?

Are there more mainline pilots than everyone else?

And patience may be a virtue, but it doesn't help when you're term limited, and you only have a finite time to accomplish your goals. Once an FO rep upgrades, he can't run again except as a captain rep. Which usually goes to the more senior candidates.

So.... there are limits... is there an organization in your life...or even yourself that doesn't have limits?

Regardless... what do you suggests?

 

[ifly4food]

nevermind.