NWA + DAL Part II

[~~~^~~~]

ExAF: It is just too one sided. We will have to see what the final deal looks like.

As is, regardless of web board congeniality, it is DOA at Delta. No one I know would hesitate for one milisecond to vote this down.

If we had some sort of a NWA | System | DAL list that allowed pilots to choose when they wanted to bid over (like the Fair Plan) it might have a chance.

NWA's "Dynamic Seniority" concept is equally bad as DOH, maybe worse.

 

[wings421]

I have to agree.

The junior NWA guys are going to make out like bandits if the rumors are even close to being true (lots more pay, aircraft types, bases etc...).

The new Delta guys get a small pay raise and lose the ability to quickly bid a widebody.

Maybe I should have applied at NWA, that way when the merger goes through I'd feel like I hit the lottery instead of feeling like I got hit by a truck.

Of course this post is based entirely on speculation and probably won't reflect whats really going to happen but as a new guy, its hard not to look at how this might affect you and in my opinion, the new NWA guys are going to gain a lot more than the new DAL guys.

 

[Fly4hire]

OKAY, I want to say it.......but......um....okay. I hope for a fair merger if one happens.....

The NWA guys supposedly asked for this meeting, so hopefully they came down off of their original stance, whatever that was.

Good luck to ALL, even my Canuk Hoser "brothers" up North.


Bye Bye--General Lee

GL,

All locker room banter aside, I was under the impression that ALPA National was pushing for the two sides to meet.

JMO, but I think the forces behind this deal have too much money and momentum into it to let it fall apart simply because of the pilots, and it will end up in an arbitration with the possibility of another USAPA type debacle if a mutual deal is not reached.

While RA may say "y'all" with the best of them, the DEAL and the business comes ahead any perceived loyalty or promises made to employees and statements in the press, and he would not hesitate after a reasonable period of time (likely ending) that "we will do this deal with you or without you" and force it to arbitration.

He is no different than any other airline CEO in the recent past, has no loyalty to anyone but himself, the company, and shareholders. Any benefit to the employees of either side is only considered as it relates to the expediency of accomplishing the aforementioned.

You guys might be well advised to remember that.

I will even be apolitical and not comment on the nature of either sides positions other than to say the pressure is being turned up from a number of external sources to find a mutual solution.

Good luck to us all, even my future in-laws.

 

[Sedona16]

Sedona:

This is not the response you want, but the Reps have been communicating that this is a package deal. For the line guys to see the contract there has to be a SLI deal. Everything has to be agreed to before the details are sent out prior to membership ratification. There are four parts to the plan and all four parts have to be in place, or the plan never even goes to Kinko's.

The reason no one is going to get the details prior to SLI is because of the threat of arbitration / litigation. Any contract details, or notes on seniority integration, would be used as evidence in any subsequent legal proceeding.

-----^^^ Fact ---- vvvv rumors ----

Talking rumors, your $99 figure sounds correct if the -700 rate and -800 rates are made the same. The 767 rates would be $102 and hour, which is not much of an increase for a jet with more than twice the capacity. Still it is a decent bump in pay from NWA's $81.

I'm also hearning an increase in the range you are talking about on the retirement/401K contribution. (from current book to 14%?)

Overall, the raise for the NWA pilots is pretty darned big. Using the 757; 26% plus the contribution is somewhere in the range of 35 to 40% depending on how their 0 to 5% B fund contribution works. For NWA new hires going from $30 to $50, plus 14%, the calculator says 50-30=20 20/30 is 66%, plus 14%, for an 80% raise. Effectively $30 and change to $57 and change - nearly double. Second year their pay would be at least $23 more with the benefits.

The pay raise for Delta pilots is less than combined inflation on the rates negotiated in bankruptcy. If there is not any mechanism to protect junior Delta pilots, there will be significant pay cuts with displacements. So far, the third hand rumors are all "no fences." So if you want a Boeing of any kind you better get it now and become an expert on reserve staffing rules. You'll get to enjoy at least 5 to 6 years on reserve, if you don't get displaced. Hopefully they are keeping NWA's 75 hour reserve guarantee. (Frankly, for junior Delta pilots, this deal has NO silver lining its at least a five to seven year step backwards)

Without fences and with such a diverse fleet (& pay) the airline is going to have a hard time keeping all the pilots out of the schoolhouse every other year. I wonder how they plan to keep the DC9 staffed since some NWA guys will surely find a $26 to $35+ an hour raise compelling to fly the ER out of a base that does not require the shovelling of snow.

I wish the "Fair Plan" I posted could get some traction. But it seems like neither side is including ideas from the peanut gallery, even good ideas.

As rumored, I can not see a single reason why any Delta pilot would be inclined to vote in favor of this merger, except for the threat of a cram down if the vote isn't yes.

There is no carrot, only stick. Tom Goodman is wise to point out that we should not count on management promises of growth (although the current 777 order and some 737's look pretty certain).

I agree, in its present rumoured form this combination is a disaster for the jr Delta guys. I still would much prefer a stand alone plan than over this windfall. Time will tell.

 

[Noserider76]

ExAF: It is just too one sided. We will have to see what the final deal looks like.

As is, regardless of web board congeniality, it is DOA at Delta. No one I know would hesitate for one milisecond to vote this down.

If we had some sort of a NWA | System | DAL list that allowed pilots to choose when they wanted to bid over (like the Fair Plan) it might have a chance.

NWA's "Dynamic Seniority" concept is equally bad as DOH, maybe worse.

It will be interesting to see what they come up with but I have to agree with you up to this point. The groundswell seems to be "why are we supporting this merger?" Maybe it will be a cram down but I can't imagine the CEO stating, "there will be no deal without the employees", than saying, "screw it, I lied" when it doesn't happen. OK, maybe I can imagine that, but we can still make this very hard for them.

People focus on what's going to happen in their lives. Many are seeing that the only parts of the job that are still good may be gone for many in return for small pay raises and some equity. The company doesn't want fences, from what I've heard, which is going to kill QOL for many. If your in-base upgrade is pushed back 5 years and your seniority in your base and on your equipment is constantly being slammed you've lost much of what you have left.

Also, is a merger going into a recession a smart move? Delta never lost money until the PanAm buyout. The economy went downhill shortly after, PanAm's old equipment was quickly retired, and Delta guys were furloughed. Could this be a similar situation? I've heard all the "we need mass to compete on a global scale" arguments but DL and NW are still some of the largest airlines in the world and will compete on their own. Joint ventures that take advantage of much of the benfits of the merger will be structured.

I hate to be negative with all the touchy feely posts but some serious questions will have to be asked if they come up with a deal. Unless something changes, I see this as being a very tough yes vote for the pilots at DL.

 

[Fly4hire]

Maybe it will be a cram down but I can't imagine the CEO stating, "there will be no deal without the employees", than saying, "screw it, I lied" when it doesn't happen. OK, maybe I can imagine that, but we can still make this very hard for them.

I can in a NYC (or DC) minute.

RA came from NWA and we have years of experience with him. Our MEC has said before they actually prefer dealing with Steenland to Anderson because what you see is what you get as opposed to the smile and a handshake as he slices your nut's off with the other.

Frankly I'm amazed at how much faith you guys are placing in RA to protect you for a guy that started as a Lorenzo lawyer at EAL, and then spent the bulk of his career at NWA.

We joke (gallows humor) that NWA CEO's and VP's use the carrot and stick method of negotiating - you get one bite at the carrot, then we are going to take the carrot, jam it up your *ss, and beat you senseless with the stick.

Y'all be careful down there

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

That was then this is now. You being former NW know that NW did not lose money and payed CASH for aircraft between 1956-1989 better than SWAs current run (which is impressive). Guess what, Dal is just as fragile now as they have been since 1990. Yes, you are hiring 500/yr, yes you are growing, but history tells us that every airline since dereg that has done that has imploded. So, enjoy the ride and as much as I despise our mgmt I will take the conservative/slow/no-growth because I feel that there is a lot of pain ahead for our country/world(recession). You might be hire 500/yr now but very well could be furloughing 1000s in 6 months.

Also, is a merger going into a recession a smart move? Delta never lost money until the PanAm buyout. The economy went downhill shortly after, PanAm's old equipment was quickly retired, and Delta guys were furloughed. Could this be a similar situation? I've heard all the "we need mass to compete on a global scale" arguments but DL and NW are still some of the largest airlines in the world and will compete on their own. Joint ventures that take advantage of much of the benfits of the merger will be structured.

I hate to be negative with all the touchy feely posts but some serious questions will have to be asked if they come up with a deal. Unless something changes, I see this as being a very tough yes vote for the pilots at DL.[/quote]

 

[Redmeat]

Frankly I'm amazed at how much faith you guys are placing in RA to protect you for a guy that started as a Lorenzo lawyer at EAL, and then spent the bulk of his career at NWA.

Yep, no kidding.

I think most NW guys would agree that DAL let a NW fox into their Hen House.

 

[Speedbird34]

"To fly west, my friend, is a flight we all must take for a final check."
Author Unknown

 

[Noserider76]

That was then this is now. You being former NW know that NW did not lose money and payed CASH for aircraft between 1956-1989 better than SWAs current run (which is impressive). Guess what, Dal is just as fragile now as they have been since 1990. Yes, you are hiring 500/yr, yes you are growing, but history tells us that every airline since dereg that has done that has imploded. So, enjoy the ride and as much as I despise our mgmt I will take the conservative/slow/no-growth because I feel that there is a lot of pain ahead for our country/world(recession). You might be hire 500/yr now but very well could be furloughing 1000s in 6 months.

Re DL/PanAm, history does have a way of repeating itself, though. You seem to think DL will implode without the merger, but I disagree. I think DL and NW will do fine on their own. Let's not forget this deal is to benefit the large investors and senior management, not us.

Believe me I don't see RA a white knight. He was forced on the company by the big institutional investors. The DL guy, Whitehurst, had big visions for a standalone Delta, and paid the price for it. RA will not save us but we, as a pilot group, can hold him to his statement or make this a very tough deal for them to swallow.

Again, I think both companies are great companies with great people. As it stands now though I see this as possibly a very bad deal for DL people. Corporate cultures could not be more different, and even the best, most intuitive mergers result in years of hardship for most.

 

[Speedbird34]

Again, I think both companies are great companies with great people. As it stands now though I see this as possibly a very bad deal for DL people. Corporate cultures could not be more different, and even the best, most intuitive mergers result in years of hardship for most.[/quote]


I agree 100%

 

[Speedbird34]

[


Believe me I don't see RA a white knight. He was forced on the company by the big institutional investors. The DL guy, Whitehurst, had big visions for a standalone Delta, and paid the price for it. RA will not save us but we, as a pilot group, can hold him to his statement or make this a very tough deal for them to swallow.


Amen

 

[FDJ2]

I agree, in its present rumoured form this combination is a disaster for the jr Delta guys. I still would much prefer a stand alone plan than over this windfall. Time will tell.

Initially a relative seniority deal would have passed at DAL, with some hesitation, but it would have passed.

Now I'm not too sure. It's going to take a great deal of leadership and faith in the plan going forward. For DAL pilots on the surface there are no significant improvements, certainly not to the scale that the NWA pilots will enjoy.

The benefits are much less transparent.

Will there be a need for 400-500 new pilots based on the contractual language brought forward by the DAL PWA?

Probably yes.

Will there be more international heavy flying with a merged company versus the current cumulative flying of each airline as a stand alone?

Probably yes.

Will domestic flying be upgauged, with many flights currently flown by 70-76 seat RJs now going to mainline aircraft and flights currently flown by 50 seat RJs, being flown by 70-76 seaters?

Probably yes.

Will the combined carrier be better positioned to deal with the increasing price of oil and a potential recession?

Probably yes.

Will the Delta pilot receive as much economic benefit as the NWA pilot?

No, but how much does it matter what the other guy is getting?

There is a big risk vs reward calculation each pilot may have to make.

We'll see what happens. I think some of the initial players have come to the realization that this is not about negotiating the best deal you can get (big initial mistake), but about getting an SLI that both pilot groups feel comfortable with and would ratify indirectly through membership ratification of the joint PWA.

 

[IXLR8]

while they wait for a plane that hasn't had it's first test flight yet. (At least they still have the -9s)

Bye Bye--General Lee

Why do you continue to press this point?...

 

[Redmeat]

Initially a relative seniority deal would have passed at DAL, with some hesitation, but it would have passed.

Now I'm not too sure. It's going to take a great deal of leadership and faith in the plan going forward. For DAL pilots on the surface there are no significant improvements, certainly not to the scale that the NWA pilots will enjoy.

The benefits are much less transparent.

Will there be a need for 400-500 new pilots based on the contractual language brought forward by the DAL PWA?

Probably yes.

Will there be more international heavy flying with a merged company versus the current cumulative flying of each airline as a stand alone?

Probably yes.

Will domestic flying be upgauged, with many flights currently flown by 70-76 seat RJs now going to mainline aircraft and flights currently flown by 50 seat RJs, being flown by 70-76 seaters?

Probably yes.

Will the combined carrier be better positioned to deal with the increasing price of oil and a potential recession?

Probably yes.

Will the Delta pilot receive as much economic benefit as the NWA pilot?

No, but how much does it matter what the other guy is getting?

There is a big risk vs reward calculation each pilot may have to make.

We'll see what happens. I think some of the initial players have come to the realization that this is not about negotiating the best deal you can get (big initial mistake), but about getting an SLI that both pilot groups feel comfortable with and would ratify indirectly through membership ratification of the joint PWA.

Terrific post. Can't disagree with any of it.

"Will the Delta pilot receive as much economic benefit as the NWA pilot?

No, but how much does it matter what the other guy is getting?"

Exactly.

What is it about our nature (as professional pilots) that we would rather be the highest paid pilot at $90,000 a year than be the lowest paid pilot at $130,000 a year?

I never understood that mentality.