NWA + DAL Part II

[JOPILOT]

[FONT=Verdana,Helvetica,Arial]By Harry R. Weber[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Helvetica,Arial]Associated Press[/FONT]
Published: Wednesday, March 5, 2008 1:11 p.m. MST


ATLANTA — Pilot union leaders at Delta Air Lines Inc. and Northwest Airlines Corp. were meeting Wednesday in Washington, a hopeful sign that formal negotiations over integrating seniority lists to facilitate a combination of the two carriers could soon resume, two people familiar with the discussions told The Associated Press.
The people, who asked not to be named because of the sensitivity of the situation, said the meetings included top leaders of the two unions, but not their full negotiating teams.
Prior to the meetings that started Tuesday in Washington, the two sides had not met since Feb. 21, the two people said.
Several people familiar with the discussions have said the pieces of a deal that would create the world's largest airline are in place, held up only by the lack of a seniority agreement between the pilots at each carrier. Unlike prior airline deals, Atlanta-based Delta and Eagan, Minn.-based Northwest have tried to get their pilots to work out their own integration in advance of any airline combination announcement. Seniority is a major issue for pilots because it determines who gets desirable — and higher-paying — planes, routes, and schedules.

I really wish this would go away, they're back at it. JP

 

[slinky]

hopefully this will go at least a page before the crazies on both sides of the argument drag it down to the gutter. I for one hope we go it alone. If we have to merge, I just hope it is fair.

slinky

 

[Redmeat]

I really wish this would go away, they're back at it. JP

Where have you been? We knew Monday that they were off to meet again.

I'm glad the two sides (especially NW) didn't bring their entire negotiating teams.

I still think the merger is a done deal regardless of what the pilot groups do. I just hope that the two sides can see thru the emotion and realize that this thing can benefit everybody.

If we stomp our feet and take are respective balls home and Wall Street decides the merger still works on paper ($$$), we will lose an unprecedented amount of leverage in the new company.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Well the reps said that NWA had wanted to meet. So, I think that it is only prudent to see what the other side really wants.
I expect this to continue all the way to a deal.

 

[Truckdriver]

Well the reps said that NWA had wanted to meet. So, I think that it is only prudent to see what the other side really wants.
I expect this to continue all the way to a deal.

I agree with ACL. I think this deal will happen so hopefully both sides can work together to make this a good deal we can speak positively about in the future. I think that the pay raises, equity, and international growth opportunities would be a good thing for both groups. I'd love to get a 7-15% raise, 100K in equity, and have the combined airline continue to hire 500+ pilots per year just for growth. If the growth can carry us for 5 years, then retirements will kick back in and things should be good for the DAL/NWA group.

 

[JOPILOT]

"Where have you been? We knew Monday that they were off to meet again."


Sorry, I was where else but on a 4 day where for some reason there is rarely any information supplied as to what's up. Suprise, Suprise. Although, it seems the common banter on the flight line is-if we have such a solid stand alone plan DAL pilots should not compromise.

 

[Redmeat]

Although, it seems the common banter on the flight line is-if we have such a solid stand alone plan DAL pilots should not compromise.

With all the dynamic variables that have an effect on a legacy carrier (price of oil, state of the economy, speculation on the state of the economy, fare competition, LCC base openings...etc.) the only thing 'solid' in this business is the CEO's wallet.

 

[123]

I agree with ACL. I think this deal will happen so hopefully both sides can work together to make this a good deal we can speak positively about in the future. I think that the pay raises, equity, and international growth opportunities would be a good thing for both groups. I'd love to get a 7-15% raise, 100K in equity, and have the combined airline continue to hire 500+ pilots per year just for growth. If the growth can carry us for 5 years, then retirements will kick back in and things should be good for the DAL/NWA group.

Truck,

I agree. I am hopeful that a deal can be struck between the two pilot groups. We, as a Union, have a great opportunity here to capitalize from wall streets goal of airline mergers. I think that the combined company could be a great thing, where we can dilute the fixed costs and overhead over a larger revenue producing company. With such low margins (~10%), we have to be able to increase volume of sales.

I fear that if this deal doesn't happen, when our contracts become amendable, the company will have their arms crossed saying, we aren't making that kind of money and just can't afford those increased costs.:crying: If you would have gone along with our merger, we would be doing so much better, but since the pilots couldn't work things out for themselves, we are still a struggling airline trying to turn a profit is a very competitive industry.:bawling:

 

[Sedona16]

Truck,

I agree. I am hopeful that a deal can be struck between the two pilot groups. We, as a Union, have a great opportunity here to capitalize from wall streets goal of airline mergers. I think that the combined company could be a great thing, where we can dilute the fixed costs and overhead over a larger revenue producing company. With such low margins (~10%), we have to be able to increase volume of sales.

I fear that if this deal doesn't happen, when our contracts become amendable, the company will have their arms crossed saying, we aren't making that kind of money and just can't afford those increased costs.:crying: If you would have gone along with our merger, we would be doing so much better, but since the pilots couldn't work things out for themselves, we are still a struggling airline trying to turn a profit is a very competitive industry.:bawling:

I am still not a fan of the merger but one point in favor along with the pay raises and equity already mentioned is if in fact the combined airline is able to make more money then in four years (maybe sooner) it would be easier to ask for a bigger raise.

Having said that I hope the other sections are left open for further negotiation (ie reserve rules, sick days/pay, vacation, rigs, etc) in 2009 or sooner.

 

[General Lee]

OKAY, I want to say it.......but......um....okay. I hope for a fair merger if one happens.....

The NWA guys supposedly asked for this meeting, so hopefully they came down off of their original stance, whatever that was.

Good luck to ALL, even my Canuk Hoser "brothers" up North.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[tomgoodman]

They're ready either way

I fear that if this deal doesn't happen, when our contracts become amendable, the company will have their arms crossed saying, we aren't making that kind of money and just can't afford those increased costs.:crying: If you would have gone along with our merger, we would be doing so much better, but since the pilots couldn't work things out for themselves, we are still a struggling airline trying to turn a profit is a very competitive industry.:bawling:

And if it does happen, they will say "this merger cost us a bundle, the returns aren't what we expected, and you just got a pay raise, so therefore....." :crying: :bawling:

 

[123]

And if it does happen, they will say "this merger cost us a bundle, the returns aren't what we expected, and you just got a pay raise, so therefore....." :crying: :bawling:

Yeah, but then we can beat them silly :smash: over the fact that they were the brilliant executives that said this was such a great deal. Not that it will do anything.... but at least our negotiatons would be starting at a dollar figure.

 

[Sedona16]

And if it does happen, they will say "this merger cost us a bundle, the returns aren't what we expected, and you just got a pay raise, so therefore....." :crying: :bawling:

If history is any indicator I would say you are spot on. Of course there is never a good time financially for the company to give mony. They have an excuse book a mile long on why the sky is falling even if they were making ten billion a quarter.

 

[ultrarunner]

I bet the USAir guys are on the phone with the NWA reps telling them not to back off on DOH!

 

[General Lee]

I bet the USAir guys are on the phone with the NWA reps telling them not to back off on DOH!

They are the ones who wanted to restart the talks. Maybe knowing 4-6 (6 with negotiations) more years of substandard pay and workrules just wasn't going to cut it for some, while they wait for a plane that hasn't had it's first test flight yet. (At least they still have the -9s)

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Redmeat]

They are the ones who wanted to restart the talks. Maybe knowing 4-6 (6 with negotiations) more years of substandard pay and workrules just wasn't going to cut it for some, while they wait for a plane that hasn't had it's first test flight yet. (At least they still have the -9s)

Bye Bye--General Lee

General...Do you actually work for DAL? At this point we are wondering.

For everyone else....this deal will go thru with our input or without. Which would you prefer?

 

[800Dog]

As a Delta guy, I just want a fair deal. That has a different meaning to many people involved. However, if I fly with a NWA person down the road, I hope we can enjoy some beers together on the road as this job should be more fun than many make it out to be. First round is on me! Lets hope if we merge, it is the best deal for all pilots involved and we can have a common/strong voice in future negotiations. Should not be this complicated. Cheers.

 

[jayme]

They are the ones who wanted to restart the talks. Maybe knowing 4-6 (6 with negotiations) more years of substandard pay and workrules just wasn't going to cut it for some, while they wait for a plane that hasn't had it's first test flight yet. (At least they still have the -9s)

Bye Bye--General Lee

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. What are you saying about the 787s and DC9s?
This is the first time you've mentioned those planes.:erm: uke:

 

[propdog]

As a Delta guy, I just want a fair deal. That has a different meaning to many people involved. However, if I fly with a NWA person down the road, I hope we can enjoy some beers together on the road as this job should be more fun than many make it out to be. First round is on me! Lets hope if we merge, it is the best deal for all pilots involved and we can have a common/strong voice in future negotiations. Should not be this complicated. Cheers.

From the NWA side...thanks for the kind thoughts. I agree.

 

[Truckdriver]

As a Delta guy, I just want a fair deal. That has a different meaning to many people involved. However, if I fly with a NWA person down the road, I hope we can enjoy some beers together on the road as this job should be more fun than many make it out to be. First round is on me! Lets hope if we merge, it is the best deal for all pilots involved and we can have a common/strong voice in future negotiations. Should not be this complicated. Cheers.

I think most of us at both DAL and NWA feel the same way. The fact is that this deal will go down with or without our support. I know they are saying it won't unless we get on board, but there are too many folks poised to make alot of coin even if the merged entity is a total mess. I think we should all realize that we can get 7-15% closer to what rates should be, a good size equity chunk, and hopefully work for an airline that will have some good widebody growth that will makeup for the seniority that some may lose in the deal. I'm at the bottom of the DAL list and am sure I won't be happy with what happens to my seniority and career expectations. However, the same thing will happen to us if we don't get on board and we'll get nothing but an arbitrators award that won't include pay raises and equity.

 

[Yuppyguppy]

good luck to you guys...our MEC chairman tonight just asked us to vote on a .5% increase in dues (for 6 months) for the UAL seniority integration with CAL...sounds like something is definitely up.

 

[Redmeat]

As a Delta guy, I just want a fair deal. That has a different meaning to many people involved. However, if I fly with a NWA person down the road, I hope we can enjoy some beers together on the road as this job should be more fun than many make it out to be. First round is on me! Lets hope if we merge, it is the best deal for all pilots involved and we can have a common/strong voice in future negotiations. Should not be this complicated. Cheers.

Thanks 800Dog. I too hope that the potential of this merger is realized.

I'm a laid back guy as well, and if we ever fly together sounds as if we'll get along just fine.

 

[Superpilot92]

I agree with ACL. I think this deal will happen so hopefully both sides can work together to make this a good deal we can speak positively about in the future. I think that the pay raises, equity, and international growth opportunities would be a good thing for both groups. I'd love to get a 7-15% raise, 100K in equity, and have the combined airline continue to hire 500+ pilots per year just for growth. If the growth can carry us for 5 years, then retirements will kick back in and things should be good for the DAL/NWA group.

I agree :beer:

 

[Clacker]

Wow!

This is the most congenial thread I have read in quite sometime, and I agree with the general consensus. If mergers are inevitable, then we had better get the best deal from management for the combined pilot group. A little pain now might be better than what awaits us in a few years if we don't do it...

 

[Superpilot92]

Wow!

This is the most congenial thread I have read in quite sometime, and I agree with the general consensus. If mergers are inevitable, then we had better get the best deal from management for the combined pilot group. A little pain now might be better than what awaits us in a few years if we don't do it...

Its nice to see a good thread for once. It gets really old when you have people who do nothing but come on and try to flame others. If this is going to happen we need to be 1 solid pilot group.

 

[General Lee]

As a Delta guy, I just want a fair deal. That has a different meaning to many people involved. However, if I fly with a NWA person down the road, I hope we can enjoy some beers together on the road as this job should be more fun than many make it out to be. First round is on me! Lets hope if we merge, it is the best deal for all pilots involved and we can have a common/strong voice in future negotiations.

I agree with him. I just want it fair, and when I am the Captain and a NWA guy flies with me, the third and fifth pitchers are on me, especially in Fargo.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Klamath]

I agree with him. I just want it fair, and when I am the Captain and a NWA guy flies with me, the third and fifth pitchers are on me, especially in Fargo.

Bye Bye--General Lee

Funny thing is he's not joking. He wants the DAL/NWA pilot merger the same way. "I'll take the first two, give one and take the other".

Just life I guess.

 

[Sedona16]

So if my math is correct a guy who has been at Delta for 24 months flying the 737 would make roughly $99 per hour (immediate 7% pay bump on all rates followed by 4% the second year)?

A 24 month guy in the most jr airplane (DC9) would make $85/hr instead of $70/hr with current rates/longevity if I am understanding this correctly.

Top pay would be $227/hr. A far cry from top major airline pay of $365/hr back in 2000.

I wonder if the percent increases based on previous years profit margins will also still be in effect?

Is it still going to be 11% more for retirement or is this going up too? Somewhere I heard 14%. I have heard the equity to each pilot ranging anywhere from $30k to $100k.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Sedona:

This is not the response you want, but the Reps have been communicating that this is a package deal. For the line guys to see the contract there has to be a SLI deal. Everything has to be agreed to before the details are sent out prior to membership ratification. There are four parts to the plan and all four parts have to be in place, or the plan never even goes to Kinko's.

The reason no one is going to get the details prior to SLI is because of the threat of arbitration / litigation. Any contract details, or notes on seniority integration, would be used as evidence in any subsequent legal proceeding.

-----^^^ Fact ---- vvvv rumors ----

Talking rumors, your $99 figure sounds correct if the -700 rate and -800 rates are made the same. The 767 rates would be $102 and hour, which is not much of an increase for a jet with more than twice the capacity. Still it is a decent bump in pay from NWA's $81.

I'm also hearning an increase in the range you are talking about on the retirement/401K contribution. (from current book to 14%?)

Overall, the raise for the NWA pilots is pretty darned big. Using the 757; 26% plus the contribution is somewhere in the range of 35 to 40% depending on how their 0 to 5% B fund contribution works. For NWA new hires going from $30 to $50, plus 14%, the calculator says 50-30=20 20/30 is 66%, plus 14%, for an 80% raise. Effectively $30 and change to $57 and change - nearly double. Second year their pay would be at least $23 more with the benefits.

The pay raise for Delta pilots is less than combined inflation on the rates negotiated in bankruptcy. If there is not any mechanism to protect junior Delta pilots, there will be significant pay cuts with displacements. So far, the third hand rumors are all "no fences." So if you want a Boeing of any kind you better get it now and become an expert on reserve staffing rules. You'll get to enjoy at least 5 to 6 years on reserve, if you don't get displaced. Hopefully they are keeping NWA's 75 hour reserve guarantee. (Frankly, for junior Delta pilots, this deal has NO silver lining its at least a five to seven year step backwards)

Without fences and with such a diverse fleet (& pay) the airline is going to have a hard time keeping all the pilots out of the schoolhouse every other year. I wonder how they plan to keep the DC9 staffed since some NWA guys will surely find a $26 to $35+ an hour raise compelling to fly the ER out of a base that does not require the shovelling of snow.

I wish the "Fair Plan" I posted could get some traction. But it seems like neither side is including ideas from the peanut gallery, even good ideas.

As rumored, I can not see a single reason why any Delta pilot would be inclined to vote in favor of this merger, except for the threat of a cram down if the vote isn't yes.

There is no carrot, only stick. Tom Goodman is wise to point out that we should not count on management promises of growth (although the current 777 order and some 737's look pretty certain).

 

[ExAF]

Food Fight

I hope that if this happens all we fight about is who is buying the first beer. Even though the Gen is biting his tongue, this thread is actually an encouraging indication things might be able to get worked out. Sure has been quiet this week.