Falcon 50ex

[c140]

The Boss-man is looking at up-grading to a Falcon 50ex... What are the pros and cons, any other information on the plane would be appreciated.

Thanks!

 

[BEfly]

B.S.

Quit making S*** up!

 

[c140]

B.S.

Quit making S*** up!

Why would I make this up, come on. What kind of response is that buddy.

 

[WhyFlare]

What an jerk. Is he a Flt Opts beech driver ?

EX is amazing. Burns much less then staight 50. Climb performance is excellent.

 

[ultrarunner]

The 50EX is a great plane. Expensive to maintain, but they don't break much. Built like tanks.

The EX will go 3000nm at .80, no sweat. You'll love the bird.

 

[400A]

B.S.

Quit making S*** up!

If you do not have anything to contribute, JUST SHUT UP!

By th way, your *** make you a real STUD!

 

[c140]

Thanks for the info on the plane... much appreciated

 

[sleepy]

I have been flying the DA-50EX for 4 years now. Overall it is a great aircraft for the money. I have not had many problems with it.

In our fleet of three we have had a few engine failures (the TFE-731-40 engine has some problems with a carbon seal and turbin blades cracking, do some research on that). There is also a problem with leaking Fuel Control Units (I have had that one), failure of the oil bypass valve (expensive to replace because you have to remove an outboard engine to get to it, we had three of those this year for some reason) and a failure in an oil return line that is covered by AD (it cracks and leads to an engine shutdown due to low oil pressure). The problem with this aircraft is really with the engines.

The aircraft itself performs well. Great short field performance, good second segment climb numbers, great range. The cabin is not all that big, the max pax for comfort is 6. Plenty of baggage space (not big enough for skiis though). I made it from KBUR to Atlanta today at M.83, FL 390, burned around 9,000 lbs of fuel, average 40 kt tail wind, 3.5 hours flight time, landed with 4000 lbs of fuel (still had room for 2,000 lbs more fuel if I had needed it), I could have carried 9 pax.

Overall, it is a lot of aircraft for the money.

 

[ultrarunner]

Also to consider c140 is a straight 50 that has been converted to the -4 engine config.

Talk to the folks at Premiere Aircraft. The advantage of this route is you may wind up with an equal performing aircraft for less money.

But there is no free lunch....these will be older airframes that will need other work.

The smart money will likely go with lower time and newer airframes vs. older airframes and higher times.

YMMV.

 

[rumrnr78]

Buy a CL-300. Period. All the best- Rum

 

[CRJCA]

rumrnr78 and that darn challenger 300! hahahahahaha! I agree. Forget the Falcon. Too small. But challengers more $$$ of course. I hear the Legacy can be had for around same price, and man what an aircraft!

 

[rumrnr78]

classic CRJCA!

 

[c140]

That's is very interesting about the engine deal on the plane...

The boss has looked at the cl-300 and the citation X, he seemed to like the fa-50 better... But I don't know.

How about out of those planes, how do they perform out of a hot and high airport?

 

[ultrarunner]

A 50EX is a good hot/high airplane. I suspect a CL 300 is as well, but can't speak for the X.

Be wary of the CL300...while it's a good bird, you have to deal with the Bombardier support network, and it's WAY LESS than stellar.

And right now, if you even want a CL300, you're gonna put out 23+mil for one that occasionally comes on the market...or wait 3 years for one that you order now.

 

[WhyFlare]

Nothing beats the Falcon for hot and high. 3 engines cant be beat. Climbs like a beast. Lose an engine and just keep going. Not an emergency, just an abnormal. 2 SEPERATE pressurizations sys. No chance of CG problems. Shown to fly at MAch .97, not recommended. Good support and resale value. Never had engine problems on EX. Had 2 bad fuel computers on straight 50.

Legacy is loud inside and has a narrow cabin. Its a streched Brasilia 120 Turbo Prop fusalage. Not impressive to fly in. Ask passenger and pilots and you will see. Flt. Opts has them.

 

[rumrnr78]

Nothing beats the Falcon for hot and high. 3 engines cant be beat. Climbs like a beast. Lose an engine and just keep going. Not an emergency, just an abnormal. 2 SEPERATE pressurizations sys. No chance of CG problems. Shown to fly at MAch .97, not recommended. Good support and resale value. Never had engine problems on EX. Had 2 bad fuel computers on straight 50.

Legacy is loud inside and has a narrow cabin. Its a streched Brasilia 120 Turbo Prop fusalage. Not impressive to fly in. Ask passenger and pilots and you will see. Flt. Opts has them.

Better watch out for LegacyDriver!! That last paragraph is going to send him reeling, LOL!

 

[X man]

falcon 50

The citation 10 was okay when it was hot, but not at high altitude, like aspen, etc. It was fine on two engines, but we always wondered how much scrambling we would have to do if we canned one 1000 above the ground. Great performance, 6 pax okay, lots of bag space. Maintenance, from what I have seen is probably comparable, although when it was wet and cold, got many computer ghosts, that would eventually disappear, like most ghosts do.

 

[sleepy]

That's is very interesting about the engine deal on the plane...

The boss has looked at the cl-300 and the citation X, he seemed to like the fa-50 better... But I don't know.

How about out of those planes, how do they perform out of a hot and high airport?

Maybe you should look at the C-680 Sovereign. I would take that over the X. I flew one for about 6 month before we finally sold it. It basically has the same cabin as the X, great high hot and short field performance. Never had any problems with it. The only drawback is it is really slow (M.78 cruise), like a Hawker but with a lot more baggage space.

 

[LegacyDriver]

Nothing beats the Falcon for hot and high. 3 engines cant be beat. Climbs like a beast. Lose an engine and just keep going. Not an emergency, just an abnormal. 2 SEPERATE pressurizations sys. No chance of CG problems. Shown to fly at MAch .97, not recommended. Good support and resale value. Never had engine problems on EX. Had 2 bad fuel computers on straight 50.

Legacy is loud inside and has a narrow cabin. Its a streched Brasilia 120 Turbo Prop fusalage. Not impressive to fly in. Ask passenger and pilots and you will see. Flt. Opts has them.

Narrow cabin????? You think the Legacy cabin is NARROW???

Legacy Cabin is probably twice as wide. It sure as heck is up front. Man, what a warped view if you think the Legacy is narrow compared to a 50! HA HA HA!


Legacy beats the hell out of a Falcon. The only thing a Falcon has going for it is engine out climb.

50EX:

- Burns the same gas as the EMB and at max. payload has shorter range.
- More expensive to maintain and *ALWAYS* broken. The thing is just old. If I tried to do in 50EX what we did in the Legacy we'd be in a service center within three days.
- No FADEC.
- Smaller. (If you're a French midget it's perfect for you. Me, I'm ready to kill myself after about 2 hours in it.)
- Louder (You think a Legacy is loud, try a Falcon. The gaspers will make you deaf.)
- Environmental sucks. Overheat the ducts... Always feel cold at altitude because the windows don't have any conditioned air blowing on them like the EMB has. (EMB surrounds you with conditioned air and puts out way more on a hot day than Falcon, also.)
- X-Wind Performance is abysmal.
- No foot pedal steering.
- Non-linear tiller. Ridiculous.
- Under-ruddered.
- APU not useable in flight.
- Half-assed glass cockpit.
- DV Window Weak. (Someone breaks the heater about every fourth time they close it.)
- WSI capability terrible. Reception bad.
- Draining potable water a nightmare (vs. pulling one lever on an EMB).
- Baggage Compartment - TINY. I don't know what they think will fit in there that can meet the weight limit. You can barely get enough bags in there for four people much less 8. (Legacy baggage compartment frickin' HUMONGOUS.)
- Fuel Gauges SUCK (No totalizer and always off by 500# one way or the other.)
- Fuel system a clusterhump.
- Electrical system (see above).
- Climb at ALT not that great. Legacy actually climbs better from the 30s on up.
- No Ice Detection.
- No Trailing Link Gear.
- Airplane dumps fuel all over the ramp when vented for fueling.
- Ergonomics particularly night lighting horrendous. You get some lights dim and other lights bright no matter how you try to adjust them. Also reflects off the glass which is just annoying as heck.
- No EICAS
- AOM and AFM are ridiculous. They are as many volumes as an encyclopedia and they tell you NOTHING about the airplane.

As a buddy of mine said about the 50EX, "They may as well put a tail wheel on it and get it over with."

The Embraer is 1000 times more durable, far more comfortable, reliable, and redundant. The 50EX has an extra motor but as often as they like to crap out (listening to the people at FSI you'd think this happens 100 x a day) I'd say it probably needs it.

MTOW runway length for 50EX is like 5,570' vs. 5,980' for the EMB. Not that big a difference.

As for the noise... The only time the EMB is noisy is above 300 knots with all the doors in the cabin open. You keep the galley and cockpit doors closed and it is fine. The 50EX is loud everytime you push the thrust levers up, and I don't care what anyone says, I've yet to see an airplane that's really "quiet" above 300 KIAS.

Yes the Falcon will do 370 KIAS, but I don't consider that useful for much other than burning gas.

Yes the 50 has coupled VNAV. But ergonomically it is horrible, cramped, and uncomfortable.

Unfortunately, EMBs have over 2000# of titanium in the spars, wings, and pylons. The price has rocketed through the roof on that and the asking price for the Legacy 600 is now over $25M. A Falcon 50EX is pretty competitive on acquisition cost at that price.

Having flown both extensively I would pick the Legacy over the Falcon every single time.

Time has passed the Falcon by.

As a buddy of mine who used to sell them said, the most common Legacy customer was an ex-50 owner. The Legacy is a great airplane. Hopelessly underrated.

Embraer Legacy not perfect and I can give you all her faults...but she abuses Falcon 50EX like the ghetto.

Oh well, the paycheck is bigger on the 50EX I guess...

 

[LegacyDriver]

Better watch out for LegacyDriver!! That last paragraph is going to send him reeling, LOL!

Thanks for pointing it out to me.

For my money, time, technology and the Legacy conspired to kill the 50EX. The Falcon 2000 didn't help any either as it is said a 2000 is cheaper over five or ten years than a 50EX to operate even though it is more expensive to buy.

The EMB is one tough airplane. Way overbuilt. Totally trustworthy with no gotchas... By far the most reliable airplane I've ever seen.

Now I'm gonna' go get my popcorn.