United career progression

[another cfii]

Seeing that the other UAL thread has been flamed, i'd like to start a new one discussing what a newhire can expect for a career at UAL? i.e. seniority progression, newhire junior base, how long to hold a specific a/c?

Any useful replies are much appreciated!

 

[jke406]

Seeing that the other UAL thread has been flamed, i'd like to start a new one discussing what a newhire can expect for a career at UAL? i.e. seniority progression, newhire junior base, how long to hold a specific a/c?

Any useful replies are much appreciated!

I would say any discussion of progression, etc. at any legacy carrier should be considered in flux until the mergers have run their course.

 

[aa30]

I too am interested in those questions. Also, what about the "next contract". Is the idea to recover solely compensation, or to get that plus better work rules/contract as a whole?

 

[ualdriver]

I too am interested in those questions. Also, what about the "next contract". Is the idea to recover solely compensation, or to get that plus better work rules/contract as a whole?

Right now, it may take at least several years, maybe over 10 years to upgrade to Captain because of the Age 65 thing. You'll start off in an A320 or 737 in just about any domicile you want. You might be able to upgrade to 757/767 F/O in a few years depending upon how rapidly we grow or shrink. After the aforementioned several years (or longer), you're usually in a position to either bid 777/747-400 F/O or narrowbody Captain.

As far as what we'll get when our contract expires in Dec '09- who knows. I'd say that our pilot group is relatively unified, except for the 5-10% who can't do enough to "help out" the company. I would expect our Union to take a very hard line against the company and I would expect to get the best of what AMR, Continental, and Alaska negotiate, plus a bit more, as they will hopefully be done with their contracts before ours comes up. We recently got a pretty decent TA that will improve my paycheck by about 5% due to some work rule changes, so that is a good start.

A merger, terrorist attack, $200 oil, war, etc., changes all of the above. Hopefully some other UAL guys will chime in with their opinions.

 

[AF01]

can you share any details of the TA? how is it better?
thanks

 

[ualdriver]

can you share any details of the TA? how is it better?
thanks

Pay protection and work rule stuff/duty rig stuff that we didn't have before.

 

[BigRed1]

We had approximately 80 scheduled retirements from December 13th, 2007 to March 31st, 2008. Not a single pilot actually retired. Not even one. UAL canceled the monthly system bid effective June, 2008 (bids are posted 6 months before they will need you). Our July bid had 65 (an ironic number) "vacancy bids." Not a single captain bid, and not a single B777 or B747 bid. Talk about the reality of the Age 65 carnage on our career progression slapping us in the face. Up until December 13th, there were routinely 20-30 new captain slots every month and another 20-30 wide body slots going to us narrow body guys. Let the stagnation begin...or continue.

Like other posters have said...The only way new hires will progress at a more normal traditional pace is via growth, and unfortunately United has zero A/C on order. The merger scenarios and how they will impact career progression at United are wild guesses at best.

UAL does have a lot of diversity when it comes to domiciles. At least if you are stuck towards the bottom, chances are you can live, or be based near where you want to live. These days, flying out of a domicile in which you actually live, can make or break this career. Commuting long distances will be death by a thousand needles. SEA is probably our most senior base. Need about 10 years, just to hold Guppy F/O! LAX, SFO, ORD, and IAD are all about equal as far as being a junior base, but much depends on the equipment you fly. The guppy is only based in IAD, ORD, DEN, and SEA. DEN and JFK are a bit more senior because of either size, or a lack of options in base, IE. no 777 or 747 out of DEN, so the 767 goes more senior there.

There is no seat freeze at UAL if you are on the narrow body, which is all you can get as new hire. So, if you choose, you can bid to the 767 as soon as you can hold it. It is actually not very senior, especially on the West coast. Just be prepared to fly a lot a 3 day Hawaii trips worth 10:45.

Like UALDriver said, we did just get a mid contract T/A which improved dramatically the quality of work-life on the Guppy and Airbus with the addition of monthly line pay guarantee and trip rigs. This will increase days off for us and result in an average increase in amount of pay for hours worked. These rigs will result in more pilots timing out sooner in the month and should be manpower positive for the Union and a need for additional hiring.

BigRed1

 

[Chairman]

There is a 3 year seat freeze that is only released to bid the 767 only. Other than that you are locked. If you get the 737 and after your 3 year lock you bid the bus "No real reason same pay" you are locked for another 4 1/2 years.

 

[Hair-on-Fire]

Don't forget to plan on 5 years of furlough

 

[wingslevl]

Don't forget to plan on 5 years of furlough

Way to add to the conversation, tool.

 

[ferlo]

Way to add to the conversation, tool.

Why put your head in the sand? It doesn't matter which airline you go to, your career will progress until the bottom falls out. It WILL eventually happen...furlough, BK, huge paycuts, pension stolen, merger fiasco, medical issues...whatever. Perhaps the box carriers will provide some longer term cover, but something bad is always down the road. It's a fact that everybody should understand with certainty before they sign up for this "profession".

 

[IronCityBlue]

Is scope restoration a major topic at UAL and other legacy airlines currently going for new contracts? CAL has 50 seat and under jets only, and AA is mentioning 100% scope, NWA just drew a fresh "line in the sand" with Compass so we know where they stand. What is the goal at UAL and DAL regarding scope? Is the continued outsourcing of 70-76 installed seats (in some cases 90 seat certified) acceptable for the next contract? Will more be sold for a "bargaining credit" for something else?

 

[Hair-on-Fire]

Way to add to the conversation, tool.

As somone who was furloughed from UAL for 5+ years, all I can say is: you've got a lot to learn, tool.

 

[contrail67]

So you know the future now? Back to the thread... Other things to consider if it matters to you, PIC type rating on the aircraft you are assigned to....16% of your wages go into a retirement fund paid for by the company...not what it was, but will hopefully be improved upon, and we are getting work rules back before negotiations. Hopefully things will continue to move forward. Hiring 250 by June of '08...then a break over the summer then resume hiring in the fall again...this is from the New Hire HR rep.

 

[ferlo]

So you know the future now?

Yes, United will either furlough again, or be chopped up in a merger...resulting in more furloughs. Check back in 24 months and see if I'm right.

 

[ualdriver]

Is scope restoration a major topic at UAL and other legacy airlines currently going for new contracts? CAL has 50 seat and under jets only, and AA is mentioning 100% scope, NWA just drew a fresh "line in the sand" with Compass so we know where they stand. What is the goal at UAL and DAL regarding scope? Is the continued outsourcing of 70-76 installed seats (in some cases 90 seat certified) acceptable for the next contract? Will more be sold for a "bargaining credit" for something else?

The company can't oursouce anthing over 70 seats (and I think over a certain weight, I don't recall), and under our current scope the company isn't even close to the number of outsourced RJ's they could have right now. Will it be sold for "bargaining credit" for something else? Sure, theoretically anything can be sold for "bargaining credit." Will it? Doubtful. I would expect a tightening on scope unless there's a bankruptcy judge involved.

As far as any future furloughs and a merger go, personally I doubt there will be any furloughs if there is a merger with UAL UNLESS the merger is combined with some sort of act of God (deep recession, terrorist attack, $200 oil, etc., etc.). I think our CEO wants a merger to happen and I think they know that an unhappy pilot group can be the spoiler of such an integration. I suspect that if any CEO says "merger" and "furloughs" in the same breath that all hell will break loose in our pilot ranks making our little Christmas debacle look like a picnic. Just my opinion.

 

[pipe]

The pilots didn't cause the "little Christmas debacle" - bad management did.

PIPE

 

[contrail67]

The company can't oursouce anthing over 70 seats (and I think over a certain weight, I don't recall), and under our current scope the company isn't even close to the number of outsourced RJ's they could have right now. Will it be sold for "bargaining credit" for something else? Sure, theoretically anything can be sold for "bargaining credit." Will it? Doubtful. I would expect a tightening on scope unless there's a bankruptcy judge involved.

As far as any future furloughs and a merger go, personally I doubt there will be any furloughs if there is a merger with UAL UNLESS the merger is combined with some sort of act of God (deep recession, terrorist attack, $200 oil, etc., etc.). I think our CEO wants a merger to happen and I think they know that an unhappy pilot group can be the spoiler of such an integration. I suspect that if any CEO says "merger" and "furloughs" in the same breath that all hell will break loose in our pilot ranks making our little Christmas debacle look like a picnic. Just my opinion.

UAL driver, Can you give the details of what all was given back to the 320/300 crews in the last agreement about 1 week ago concerning work rules,min day, line guarentee, ect...thanks.

 

[ualdriver]

The pilots didn't cause the "little Christmas debacle" - bad management did.

PIPE

Yeah, I'll definitely give you that. Yup, we're properly staffed Glenn!

I think some pilots, like myself, could have gone way out of their way to "help out" and soften the blow, but as individuals chose not to in order to express our displeasure with our management team. I personally think it is important for our management team to realize that as pilots, we can be happy and save gas and help them through the rough patches, but if we're not happy, we can be in full compliance with the Railway Labor Act and still bring the operation to a halt by simply only doing our jobs and nothing more. I think that message has been sent and understood, hence my belief (maybe naive, maybe not) that there will likely be no furloughs due to soley a merger.

 

[aa30]

Thanks for all the info. I appreciate both sides. Right now I am in the middle of the interviewing process. And, with any luck, I'll have a decision to make. I am stuck where I live, and it's not a domicile, so I'd be commuting. Work rules and a better contract would sure make the commute that much easier. My concern is ofcourse the possibility of a merger leading to a furlough; but, like I've heard many, many times (and told my wife myself) you just never know if you made the right choice until it's time to retire.

Thanks again for the info.