AirTran Contract issues

[Kenney G]

I just ran into a friend and asked him how their talks were going. He said a major concern over there from the entire pilot group was to make sure FO pay went up because of the slow down in upgrades. Imagine that!

 

[Lear70]

Klaus has an account, as does one of the girls in HR and her husband and either Coach or Ashley have access as well (someone in that office does).

Before the negotiations stuff started up, I had volunteered to help with recruiting and they had asked me to do tours of the training facility. My comments on here about the Midwest purchase resulted in that offer being rescinded. I was told that to my face by SG, plus where she had received the information and orders from.

A few weeks later, after the T.A. came out and we started organizing the Vote NO campaign, I got unofficially talked to by Floy and my posts on here came up again.

You're dreaming if you think they won't watch this board (and others) to get an idea of the tone of the vocal minority to see what it might indicate about the overall majority...

 

[SkiFishFly]

FO pay and scope are very important, but please don't totally focus on just a few items. I have heard too many people focusing on only a couple of sections, and very very few focusing on the single most important part of the contract. LANGUAGE LANGUAGE LANGUAGE. I wouldn't care if the FO's pay goes to 90% of captains and "AirTran" flying is done by "AirTran" pilots. If the language is so weak that you have to ask 'whats this really mean' then none of it matters. Once you get language that binds BOTH parties, then you can evaluate what the contract really says. And in evaluating, please remember that the contract has many sections that must all be weighed together as a hole. If the scope is 'perfect' but FO pay is a little short of your goal, will you weigh the fact that maybe retirement is a little higher and medical costs go down, or will you just vote no? We all need to have priorities, but if there is absolutely no flexibility in those priorities then we are no better than those sitting across the table or those who don't inform themselves and vote.

The other thing thats been pissing me off lately is how so many of you have resorted to school yard debates on the subject. 'You threw the FO's under the bus.' 'Did you even read the whole TA?' 'Your an ass.' 'Your a dick weed.' Maybe you could say 'I voted no because of X,Y, and Z.' And someone else could respond 'I understand X,Y, and Z but feel that Q,R and S make up for that and yada, yada, yada' That might actually be helpful to the process.

I have found that the majority of cockpit discussion has been this type of back and forth. Seems to me that most of us here at AAI are pretty reasonable and we can have very productive and reasonable discussions about this. I hear/understand that there are a few exceptions - but they are few and that is good.
If you can't have a discussion without resorting to name calling - perhaps you need to look at how you present your feelings/reasoning.

 

[717capt]

717... Did you really vote yes on the TA, becasuse of "myself, my family, and my airline"? I dont see that you voted "yes" because the TA would benefit your fellow pilots well being.. Seems to me thats it IS all about you. How fricken selfish. You did sell all the FO's at Airtran down the river... Its funny you mention kids, mortgage, braces, car insurance, etc... Those are all things that many of the AAI FO's can't afford now, and couldn't afford with the chity TA's FO rates that you voted yes for.. Seems to me as long as you can afford those things, then you could give a dam about anyone else being able to afford the same things........... Sorry, but your last post
p!sses me off. Things are fuggin so tight at my house it isn't even funny.. Yet you voted to make my future life on reserve even worse.. Thanks buddy... I appreciate it, so does my wife. You make me sick.....

So I'm going to put the welfare and finances of myself, my wife and children ahead of your financial difficulties, your out of your freaking mind. And anyone that tells you otherwise is just plain lying right to your face. If you don't like the pay rates, working at Airtran or whatever else go the fuk somewhere else or better yet get out of the industry. Is it my fault you can't afford certain things. Did you honsestly come here not knowing the pay rates. Cause if you did, boy that just makes you stupid doesn't it?

 

[717capt]

Hey 717 Capt I just.....thought.......I'd.....I'm sorry I am just trying to compose myself after that heart felt post.
Man I have to tell you dude I don't know how you do it making 120-140K a year at Airtran and providing for your family...I mean you must be special you know? he just doesn't understand...that guy...you know?..but I do dude you are amazing...but hey!! that is why your a Captain of a big jet airliner you HAVE TO BE AMAZING TO BE A CAPTAIN...I mean isn't that right??? They just don't give to the next guy in line right??
I mean lets say a guy with little experience say in aaaa....oh...I don't know an ATR-42 or a Beech 1900 for example comes to Airtran when they were a long shot and because no one else would hire them , they wouldn't upgrade that kinda guy right?? Nahh I didn't think so your sitting in your seat because you are special...yep that's it!! I knew it all along.
Hey all you F/O's out there listen up!!! we have a Airtran Captain in need so lets do our part to ensure he and his family can get by....I mean guys and gals where would our airline be without a guy of this caliber....man I can only hope some day soon and I hope it is sooner than later I can fly with a master of his craft so that maybe...just maybe you can impart some of your knowledge and skills my way man...and listen in the interim throw us your name and address so that maybe all of us Airtran F/O's can funnel some money your way.
Take care my friend...hang in there and God speed

I have no idea what the hell your trying to say. Compose your thoughts and present them clear and concise please. What does my experience in ATR's and 1900's have to do with anything. I also flew MD-80's and 747's for a little bit. So what?

 

[fmr727drvr]

zzzzzzzzz

 

[RIDETHELIGHTING]

So I'm going to put the welfare and finances of myself, my wife and children ahead of your financial difficulties, your out of your freaking mind. And anyone that tells you otherwise is just plain lying right to your face. If you don't like the pay rates, working at Airtran or whatever else go the fuk somewhere else or better yet get out of the industry. Is it my fault you can't afford certain things. Did you honsestly come here not knowing the pay rates. Cause if you did, boy that just makes you stupid doesn't it?

So since you put no one above yourself, I think all the FOs and Jr. CA should vote that way also. When upgrade comes I want the current RSV so I can fly 40 and get paid for 110. Thanks for opening my eyes.
Im glad we have CAs out there that stand for the good of the group and not just themselfs.

 

[71driver]

I am not surprised

 

[lacky]

I've been watching this thread with interest for some time. As you all know the comparisons to other airlines based on hourly rates alone don't tell the whole story. Obviously comparing W2s is the only way to get a true picture. Otherwise you can give this website a try and you'll see how Airtran compares on it's current contract. Recalling the Aritran Vs CAL discussion I got the following numbers:

AirTran
5 year FO, 10 year CAP
6% 401k contribution @ 9% return
10.5% BPLAN contribution @ 9% return
Average 80 hours/mo
Total - $2,16,1477

Continental
5 year Small Narrow FO, 10 year Small Narrow CAP
6% 401k contribution @ 9% return
12.75% BPLAN contribution @ 9% return
Average 80 hours/mo
Total - $2,312,473

http://www.flightsalary.com/airlinelist.html

 

[Murphy]

Hillary wins NH. Comeback Girl!

 

[PRINCE AKEEM]

Hillary wins NH. Comeback Girl!

I hope you are a chick Off to S.C. for Romney!

 

[Lear70]

I've been watching this thread with interest for some time. As you all know the comparisons to other airlines based on hourly rates alone don't tell the whole story. Obviously comparing W2s is the only way to get a true picture. Otherwise you can give this website a try and you'll see how Airtran compares on it's current contract. Recalling the Aritran Vs CAL discussion I got the following numbers:

AirTran
5 year FO, 10 year CAP
6% 401k contribution @ 9% return
10.5% BPLAN contribution @ 9% return
Average 80 hours/mo
Total - $2,16,1477

Continental
5 year Small Narrow FO, 10 year Small Narrow CAP
6% 401k contribution @ 9% return
12.75% BPLAN contribution @ 9% return
Average 80 hours/mo
Total - $2,312,473

http://www.flightsalary.com/airlinelist.html

That comparison isn't very accurate, simply because VERY few CAL pilots stay in a narrow-body for more than a year or two unless they're independently wealthy or they refuse a 15-20% pay increase so they can live in their domicile or have better bidding power.

CAL was putting people in LNB and even WB classes as new-hires, so your numbers aren't a good comparison of CAREER expectations between the two carriers. (Not to mention that CAL is under a concessionary agreement right now and is looking for LARGE increases in all pay brackets.)

Since AAI doesn't have LNB or WB aircraft (and likely won't anytime soon), you have to somehow bridge the gap between industry narrowbody averages and career earnings at other carriers or attrition at AAI will increase (again).

THAT is why AAI has the highest 717 CA pay rates in the industry. At some point, they were able to understand this simple premise. When we get back to that understanding and kill this idea of giving up quality of life items to get basic Cost-Of-Living-Adjustment pay raises, we might be close to getting a decent contract.

p.s. The difference between the averages of the two narrow-body 5-year F/O groups is about 12% LESS at AAI than CAL. ($235,000 -vs- $255,000 base salary (9.5% difference) plus the difference from 10.5% B fund and 12.75% B fund).

Hourly rates DO tell the story if you're going to use that calculator, as do differences in B-fund or differences in 401(k) matches.

What hourly rates DON'T tell you is the WORK RULES and how much they change your CREDIT, which directly changes the W-2's beyond the story of hourly rates.

Been doing this a while...

 

[Lear70]

Hey 717 Capt I just.....thought.......I'd.....I'm sorry I am just trying to compose myself after that heart felt post.
Man I have to tell you dude I don't know how you do it making 120-140K a year at Airtran and providing for your family...I mean you must be special you know? he just doesn't understand...that guy...you know?..but I do dude you are amazing...but hey!! that is why your a Captain of a big jet airliner you HAVE TO BE AMAZING TO BE A CAPTAIN...I mean isn't that right??? They just don't give to the next guy in line right??
I mean lets say a guy with little experience say in aaaa....oh...I don't know an ATR-42 or a Beech 1900 for example comes to Airtran when they were a long shot and because no one else would hire them , they wouldn't upgrade that kinda guy right?? Nahh I didn't think so your sitting in your seat because you are special...yep that's it!! I knew it all along.
Hey all you F/O's out there listen up!!! we have a Airtran Captain in need so lets do our part to ensure he and his family can get by....I mean guys and gals where would our airline be without a guy of this caliber....man I can only hope some day soon and I hope it is sooner than later I can fly with a master of his craft so that maybe...just maybe you can impart some of your knowledge and skills my way man...and listen in the interim throw us your name and address so that maybe all of us Airtran F/O's can funnel some money your way.
Take care my friend...hang in there and God speed

LOL

Rude...

but funny.

 

[-9Capt]

I've been watching this thread with interest for some time. As you all know the comparisons to other airlines based on hourly rates alone don't tell the whole story. Obviously comparing W2s is the only way to get a true picture. Otherwise you can give this website a try and you'll see how Airtran compares on it's current contract. Recalling the Aritran Vs CAL discussion I got the following numbers:

AirTran
5 year FO, 10 year CAP
6% 401k contribution @ 9% return
10.5% BPLAN contribution @ 9% return
Average 80 hours/mo
Total - $2,16,1477

Continental
5 year Small Narrow FO, 10 year Small Narrow CAP
6% 401k contribution @ 9% return
12.75% BPLAN contribution @ 9% return
Average 80 hours/mo
Total - $2,312,473

Airtran pilots don't get a 401k match. Also, without comparing rigs,work rules, vacation, sick pay, etc those numbers don't mean much.

 

[maxblast72]

From everything I have heard from my buddies recently hired at Continental, Airtran's soft pay generated by our work rules (ie duty period guarantee ,duty rig, and trip rig) is much better.

Every airline has its pros and cons, the biggest factor in career expectations is timing, ie which airline has just started their hiring boom. The rapid seniority progression for a guy hired during the beginning of a hiring boom can oftern times trump higher pay at other airlines because of quicker upgrades/quicker progression to senior lines/equipment that pay better.

Airtran's best time to be hired was between 2002 and 2004, Continental's was probably 2005 (or whenever their hiring started back up), and the past year it would seem like Delta is in the beginning of their hiring boom.