AirTran Contract issues

[MINIME]

I don't know exactly what you were looking at but using myself as an example, TA2 would have paid me $143 an hour as 7th year Captain in 2010. Right now, airlinepilotpay.com is advertising $147 for a 12th year Captain at Continental. Also, talking with some of my new hire buddies at Continental, they said they don't have a duty period guarantee, duty rigs, or trip rigs for domestic flying. Taking those work rules into consideration, I would add another 4-6% to our pay rates (because of the "soft" pay) to get equivalent rates at Continental.

I would take Airtran's TA2 small narrowbody total compensation vs. Continental's small narrowbody compensation anyday. Am I missing something?

Prior to the age 65 rule coming into effect I thought Continental might have been a decent place to work due to quick seniority progression but I would now bet Airtran's FO's will make Captain quicker than Continental FO's. We still got 65 airplanes on order (non of which are replacement airplanes) over the next 4 or 5 years and a probable order for the 737 replacement whenever it comes out.

I respect what you are saying. However, what do you think a 7 year CA at CAL will be making in 2010? Chances are, that by that time CAL may have a new and much improved CBA.

Just a few more questions. What would you have made in 2007 at day of signing? What would your year 2 through year 6 captains have made at signing date, again, in 2007? I believe CAL's year 2-6 captains make anywhere from 131 to about 140 per hour. Let's keep in mind that we are making comparisons to a concessionary contract and not one negotiated while the company is making profits! I'm not certain about the soft pay and work rules involved in your proposed contract. But if memory serves me well, I do believe that was a big point of contention among your group.

Secondly, what about pay for the guy you depend on the most, and spend a great deal of your time next to, your FO? Yes, perhaps your proposed pay scales might have been higher than the CAL SNB FO rates. But, lets keep in mind that 73 guys at CAL also fly the 800s and the 900s which pay higher, thus, making W2s better at the end of the year. Again, comparisons to a concessionary contract.

But if you want to look further, lets look at Frontier and Alaska. Your proposed FO rates didn't form parity with those payscales either. Again, these companies are also operating under concessionary contracts! Not only that, but they haven't performed as well finacially, as AAI as of late. I will respectfully submit, that your group should be striving more to at least come close to SWA and not these companies operating under concessions.

Please know that my observations and opinions are just that. I am in no way, shape, or form attacking you or your pilot group. I'm merely expressing my opinions on a subject that I think in the end could impact many of us. A tide raises all boats.

 

[gt1900]

Minime... You have a great point. I have been saying all along that AAI should at least be at F9 and ALA FO pay scales. Guys get to caught up in the hourly rates and forget the rest. I believe F9 makes time and a quarter over 80 hours as well (or something similar to JB). Almost all pilots right now are working under concesionary contracts, its up to us here at AAI to step up and set the bar a little higher. The Capt pay rates on the TA2 were a step in the right direction, but the FO rates were not.

Two.... The problem is that you say you support our union, and thats great. However, like I said before, you do not support the pilot group. If you did, you would have voted this TA down. I have no idea who you are, nore do I care, but most of the guys who did vote for the TA are the senior guys that would really not be affected by this contract. The senior guys don't have to worry about reserve, you don't worry about merger protection as much, you don't worry about the low FO hourly wage and the step backwards in QOL that the junior guys were going to get. The reason I'm telling you this is so hopefully when the next TA comes around, you will see the bigger picture and not throw the FO's under the bus. Please, support your PILOT GROUP and the union, remember the little guys, and don't just think about yourself.

 

[Spidey]

Minime... You have a great point. I have been saying all along that AAI should at least be at F9 and ALA FO pay scales. Guys get to caught up in the hourly rates and forget the rest. I believe F9 makes time and a quarter over 80 hours as well (or something similar to JB). Almost all pilots right now are working under concesionary contracts, its up to us here at AAI to step up and set the bar a little higher. The Capt pay rates on the TA2 were a step in the right direction, but the FO rates were not.

Two.... The problem is that you say you support our union, and thats great. However, like I said before, you do not support the pilot group. If you did, you would have voted this TA down. I have no idea who you are, nore do I care, but most of the guys who did vote for the TA are the senior guys that would really not be affected by this contract. The senior guys don't have to worry about reserve, you don't worry about merger protection as much, you don't worry about the low FO hourly wage and the step backwards in QOL that the junior guys were going to get. The reason I'm telling you this is so hopefully when the next TA comes around, you will see the bigger picture and not throw the FO's under the bus. Please, support your PILOT GROUP and the union, remember the little guys, and don't just think about yourself.

...Happy New Year, Co! Coke is hiring across town, they pay copilots pretty well. I love this country!

 

[curtis46]

If coke pay their co-pilots pretty well ,so can we.
Happy new year.

 

[Lear70]

If coke pay their co-pilots pretty well ,so can we.
Happy new year.

Absolutely.

Fix the problem rather than run from it...

Happy New Year to everyone, hope it brings all of us a great contract!

 

[Spidey]

If coke pay their co-pilots pretty well ,so can we.
Happy new year.

Apples and oranges.

 

[ATLplt]

Coke's great only if you belonged to the special Spidey club. That's about all they hire these days.

 

[curtis46]

Apples and oranges.

Lear70 and the others know what i mean.
are you bored?

 

[71driver]

good stuff gents! not to be hum drum but I did want to add;

The companies job during negotiations is to find areas to exploit, our negotiating commitees job is to show a unified front i.e. we will not sell our reserves and f/o's down the river so Airtran can finance Captain pay rates...period!
Well, as we all know our NC gents failed, almost I contend, to a criminal level. 3 years of negotiations and they brought those TA's to a vote?!! I honestly don't know how these morons can walk amoungst us. Does anybody believe this would have happened at a Delta/American/United/Southwest airlines....of course not then why should we.
We now have new leadership it is imperative that we stay engaged.
I am already suspect of our new VP who is on the PAB, some say he must step down, I say you betcha, the problem I have is he has already shown his hand to be pro-company and I don't like re-runs if you get my drift. How Brad D didn't get elected is beyond me.

We must insist that our union show more leadership and make a f*ckin stance once in a while, when LEAR70 got fired what did they do, when the company told our union to shut down the message board what did they do, when one of our Captains got fired, for a write-up for christ sake what did they do, during 2006 christmas debacle what did they do, over and over they have failed to stand up to the company, yet if you ask them, and I have, they say we have a weak pilot group I say show some leadership, real leadrship and the masses will follow.

As a side note, I would like to see Brad D. in the new round of negotations, he has been there before and was the reason we got 10.5% matched to our retirement from the last contract.
Also Lear70 should be there he has earned it and we need him to read through the crap the company will likely try to stuff down our throats.

 

[Lear70]

Thanks, 71drvr, I appreciate your strength of spirit!

I had a talk with some of the BoD about being available for negotiations. The initial feeling (which I agree with) is that they don't want to stir the pot, so to speak.

They want to see if the company, with its new senior leadership, is going to take a more reasonable stance at contract gains appropriate for their profitability and our part in it.

To that end, there's no reason to put people at the table that are going to antagonize the company.

However, should that approach fail, I imagine there might be some use in having someone there who won't take ANY B.S. whatsoever and will raise the B.S. flag when it's appropriate.

Mike knows how I feel and knows that, regardless of where I'm working when a new T.A. comes out, that I will be doing my analysis of it again. Hopefully it will be a positive analysis...

 

[curtis46]

71driver,Brad didn't get elected because half of the pilot group doesn't trust any senior guys anymore.there's a say,once you got spray with hot water,you're afraid of cold water.
our new vp will need to listen to the pilot group.we need to make sure he get the message loud and clear.i talked to him once,i will talk to him again.everyone should do the same.no more 3 years of BS negotiations.we need to make clear to the NC of what we expect from them,open up the channel of communication,and if Brad or lear are willing to help bring them on.

 

[Lowrider717]

we need to make clear to the NC of what we expect from them,open up the channel of communication.

If this group doesn't pull together when it counts, it won't matter if the NC "knows what we expect of them".

 

[maxblast72]

I could walk right by our new VP in the hall tomorrow and not even realize it. However, considering our new VP is a 2 year FO, I can't imagine he would sell FO's down the street as he could very well be a FO himself for another 3 or 4 years.

Who knows, I could be completely wrong. But another crap FO TA would get voted down again. MB is too smart to let another crappy TA come down the street.

 

[RIDETHELIGHTING]

, I can't imagine he would sell FO's down the street as he could very well be a FO himself for another 3 or 4 years.

I dont know he told me he felt the FO pay rates were fair. So at this point Im not expecting much. But like you said will see.

 

[Spidey]

Coke's great only if you belonged to the special Spidey club. That's about all they hire these days.

Yeh, I never considered them, but it appears they turned you down-don't fret. I know the ole chief pilot over there. You're in a good place ATLboy-know your procedures and you'll do well. Happy New Year.