AirTran Contract issues

[71driver]

No, we aren't.

To put a little perspective on things though (if my math is close to correct), if we kept the exact same contract, except gave every single pilot on the property a flat $10/hr pay raise, it would add about $0.50-$0.60 per ticket price based on an average 70% load factor.

I'd be happy to respond but I am not sure what you are referring to when you say no we are not???
I think it might be the avg of 10 pilots per month if it is to you I say YES WE ARE LOSING AN AVG OF 10 per month I have seen the numbers and that is what HR is planning on that info comes from HR

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

I'd be happy to respond but I am not sure what you are referring to when you say no we are not???
I think it might be the avg of 10 pilots per month if it is to you I say YES WE ARE LOSING AN AVG OF 10 per month I have seen the numbers and that is what HR is planning on that info comes from HR

Yeah, that's what I was responding to, and trust me, the number is NOT that high....MAYBE half that.

 

[PCL_128]

Yeah, that's what I was responding to, and trust me, the number is NOT that high....MAYBE half that.

My seniority advancement seems to prove you wrong. Since being hired, I've moved up about 10-12 numbers a month, with only about half a dozen retirements in that entire time.

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

My seniority advancement seems to prove you wrong. Since being hired, I've moved up about 10-12 numbers a month, with only about half a dozen retirements in that entire time.

Can't speak for '06, but '07 saw 84 resignations. That's 84/12=7 per month on average (that does not include retirements, terminations, and new hire training failures). With FedEx, UPS,and SWA not hiring in '08, and age 65, that number is going to be less in '08. The only real attrition in '08 will be early med. retirements, a few AA recalls and perhaps a few going over to DL and CO.

 

[PCL_128]

I think the problem is that you're averaging it throughout the entire year. I don't think the attrition picked up until the summer, when most of the airlines were beginning to hire. The attrition for the year was likely disproportionate to the latter half of the year, making it correct to say that we are now losing 10+ a month.

 

[Lear70]

With FedEx, UPS,and SWA not hiring in '08, and age 65, that number is going to be less in '08. The only real attrition in '08 will be early med. retirements, a few AA recalls and perhaps a few going over to DL and CO.

Good argument for making sure your earnings over the next 7-10 years are in-line with your seat expectations over the same time period...

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

I think the problem is that you're averaging it throughout the entire year. I don't think the attrition picked up until the summer, when most of the airlines were beginning to hire. The attrition for the year was likely disproportionate to the latter half of the year, making it correct to say that we are now losing 10+ a month.

Ummm....yeah, I used an average, because 71driver stated 10/mo. That's an average. There have been months in '07 where no one left and then a month where 15 left, so an average is really the only way to accurately depict it, unless you want a snaphot for a very specific time. Then specify a time period. You are actually right, over the summer was highest. It's now down to a trickle again. SWA, FEDEX, UPS help that. Point is, the attrition is down the last 2-3 months and likely will remain so through 2008.

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

Good argument for making sure your earnings over the next 7-10 years are in-line with your seat expectations over the same time period...

I won't argue with that, especially after I calculated how much, on average, raises would add to each ticket price....

 

[airline#5]

2/3 Capt PAy

If you think fo's will continue to subsidize capt pay, your all wrong. Fo's will vote no again and leave all the senior scabs to whine over the big raise they won't see. "Can I see the pictures of your boat again, wow, that thing is bigger than my trailer!"

 

[71driver]

I did say that is what HR is planning on HOWEVER that was pre 65 year age retirement so there will be an adjustment just like the rest of the industry.

In the end though (not to lose the point I was making) we have A LOT to do on our contract for QOL before pilots will make Airtran home

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

In the end though (not to lose the point I was making) we have A LOT to do on our contract for QOL before pilots will make Airtran home

I think many will still make it home, as I am, and so are many of my friends. I agree that we have work to do though.

 

[717capt]

Hey sunshine! Furlough no. Still hiring another 250 or more this year even with 65. Its not about which airline we are from. We do not operate in a vacuum. Everyone everywhere needs to start getting back at least what we had. Your TA was woefully inadequate. If you dont think that I am preaching in my own house then you obviously dont know me. You guys have some momentum so keep it up even just to make it slightly better. Look at your health insurance premiums over there lately? I pay 55 dollars a month for a single guy with pretty good coverage. Please dont compare us in a concessionary contract with your future contract. We will be raising the bar, keeping scope, and improving our work rules. We are already in negotiations. You do the same. Voting yes was stupid for the equipement you fly. Shame on you. I hope that your peers know that you were going to sell them down the river. You know what? You wanna know what I hope? I hope that you wake up in your hotel room to the smell of another mans cologne after you having been drinking all night. You realize what is happening when you see him come out of the bathroom buck naked but you are too drunk to scream for help before he goes for round two! Thats what I hope. Keep up the fight over there guys I have many many friends there and they are all working toward a better future for them and there families!

Wow tool! How could I possibly respond to that at the same classy level? Ok I'll try. First off
d!ckhead, No I don't know you, or maybe I do it's possible. I know a great many people. I am glad that you're preaching whatever it is you're preaching over there at CO. Good for you. good luck in your contract / non-furlough endeavors. Hope it works out for you.
Second. Whether I know you or not, don't ever, and I mean ever, accuse me of "selling anyone down the river" as you say. You don't know me that well and if you did you certainly wouldn't make a statement like that. I don't know what your background is or how long you've been in the airline biz, but I'm sure you know as well as I and all on these boards that this industry can turn at the drop of a hat. Voting yes for something that I and others thought was ok in no way makes me stupid for looking out for the betterment of my family, myself and the airline. You say that you pay $55 per month for a single healthy guy. I don't know of your marrital status or children status, but maybe if you were married with kids you might reconsider your way of thinking. Don't judge brother. You seem to have it all. Going from a 1900 to 737 at CO, maybe living at home or with not a lot of bills, mortgage, car payments, braces, day care for your youngest, car insurance for your oldest, etc. etc... don't measure your lifestyle with your co-workers, and I mean all your co-workers, not just the guys and gals at CO, but the guys and gals at Airtran, United, Delta.. and the rest.
Thirdly. I don't drink so your scenerio in the hotel room does not have a chance of happening, but if it does I would hope with a name like BIGMEAT, you would be the lucky fella.

 

[gt1900]

717... Did you really vote yes on the TA, becasuse of "myself, my family, and my airline"? I dont see that you voted "yes" because the TA would benefit your fellow pilots well being.. Seems to me thats it IS all about you. How fricken selfish. You did sell all the FO's at Airtran down the river... Its funny you mention kids, mortgage, braces, car insurance, etc... Those are all things that many of the AAI FO's can't afford now, and couldn't afford with the chity TA's FO rates that you voted yes for.. Seems to me as long as you can afford those things, then you could give a dam about anyone else being able to afford the same things........... Sorry, but your last post
p!sses me off. Things are fuggin so tight at my house it isn't even funny.. Yet you voted to make my future life on reserve even worse.. Thanks buddy... I appreciate it, so does my wife. You make me sick.....

 

[71driver]

Hey 717 Capt I just.....thought.......I'd.....I'm sorry I am just trying to compose myself after that heart felt post.
Man I have to tell you dude I don't know how you do it making 120-140K a year at Airtran and providing for your family...I mean you must be special you know? he just doesn't understand...that guy...you know?..but I do dude you are amazing...but hey!! that is why your a Captain of a big jet airliner you HAVE TO BE AMAZING TO BE A CAPTAIN...I mean isn't that right??? They just don't give to the next guy in line right??
I mean lets say a guy with little experience say in aaaa....oh...I don't know an ATR-42 or a Beech 1900 for example comes to Airtran when they were a long shot and because no one else would hire them , they wouldn't upgrade that kinda guy right?? Nahh I didn't think so your sitting in your seat because you are special...yep that's it!! I knew it all along.
Hey all you F/O's out there listen up!!! we have a Airtran Captain in need so lets do our part to ensure he and his family can get by....I mean guys and gals where would our airline be without a guy of this caliber....man I can only hope some day soon and I hope it is sooner than later I can fly with a master of his craft so that maybe...just maybe you can impart some of your knowledge and skills my way man...and listen in the interim throw us your name and address so that maybe all of us Airtran F/O's can funnel some money your way.
Take care my friend...hang in there and God speed

 

[fmr727drvr]

This type of exchange is exactly what management likes to see. Can we raise the bar for the entire pilot group please? How can we expect more respect and a better contract while we air such dirty laundry on a daily basis? Does anyone out there think they are not reading this?
Just ask Lear70.

 

[Kenney G]

I just ran into a friend and asked him how their talks were going. He said a major concern over there from the entire pilot group was to make sure FO pay went up because of the slow down in upgrades. Imagine that!

 

[Lear70]

Klaus has an account, as does one of the girls in HR and her husband and either Coach or Ashley have access as well (someone in that office does).

Before the negotiations stuff started up, I had volunteered to help with recruiting and they had asked me to do tours of the training facility. My comments on here about the Midwest purchase resulted in that offer being rescinded. I was told that to my face by SG, plus where she had received the information and orders from.

A few weeks later, after the T.A. came out and we started organizing the Vote NO campaign, I got unofficially talked to by Floy and my posts on here came up again.

You're dreaming if you think they won't watch this board (and others) to get an idea of the tone of the vocal minority to see what it might indicate about the overall majority...

 

[SkiFishFly]

FO pay and scope are very important, but please don't totally focus on just a few items. I have heard too many people focusing on only a couple of sections, and very very few focusing on the single most important part of the contract. LANGUAGE LANGUAGE LANGUAGE. I wouldn't care if the FO's pay goes to 90% of captains and "AirTran" flying is done by "AirTran" pilots. If the language is so weak that you have to ask 'whats this really mean' then none of it matters. Once you get language that binds BOTH parties, then you can evaluate what the contract really says. And in evaluating, please remember that the contract has many sections that must all be weighed together as a hole. If the scope is 'perfect' but FO pay is a little short of your goal, will you weigh the fact that maybe retirement is a little higher and medical costs go down, or will you just vote no? We all need to have priorities, but if there is absolutely no flexibility in those priorities then we are no better than those sitting across the table or those who don't inform themselves and vote.

The other thing thats been pissing me off lately is how so many of you have resorted to school yard debates on the subject. 'You threw the FO's under the bus.' 'Did you even read the whole TA?' 'Your an ass.' 'Your a dick weed.' Maybe you could say 'I voted no because of X,Y, and Z.' And someone else could respond 'I understand X,Y, and Z but feel that Q,R and S make up for that and yada, yada, yada' That might actually be helpful to the process.

I have found that the majority of cockpit discussion has been this type of back and forth. Seems to me that most of us here at AAI are pretty reasonable and we can have very productive and reasonable discussions about this. I hear/understand that there are a few exceptions - but they are few and that is good.
If you can't have a discussion without resorting to name calling - perhaps you need to look at how you present your feelings/reasoning.

 

[717capt]

717... Did you really vote yes on the TA, becasuse of "myself, my family, and my airline"? I dont see that you voted "yes" because the TA would benefit your fellow pilots well being.. Seems to me thats it IS all about you. How fricken selfish. You did sell all the FO's at Airtran down the river... Its funny you mention kids, mortgage, braces, car insurance, etc... Those are all things that many of the AAI FO's can't afford now, and couldn't afford with the chity TA's FO rates that you voted yes for.. Seems to me as long as you can afford those things, then you could give a dam about anyone else being able to afford the same things........... Sorry, but your last post
p!sses me off. Things are fuggin so tight at my house it isn't even funny.. Yet you voted to make my future life on reserve even worse.. Thanks buddy... I appreciate it, so does my wife. You make me sick.....

So I'm going to put the welfare and finances of myself, my wife and children ahead of your financial difficulties, your out of your freaking mind. And anyone that tells you otherwise is just plain lying right to your face. If you don't like the pay rates, working at Airtran or whatever else go the fuk somewhere else or better yet get out of the industry. Is it my fault you can't afford certain things. Did you honsestly come here not knowing the pay rates. Cause if you did, boy that just makes you stupid doesn't it?

 

[717capt]

Hey 717 Capt I just.....thought.......I'd.....I'm sorry I am just trying to compose myself after that heart felt post.
Man I have to tell you dude I don't know how you do it making 120-140K a year at Airtran and providing for your family...I mean you must be special you know? he just doesn't understand...that guy...you know?..but I do dude you are amazing...but hey!! that is why your a Captain of a big jet airliner you HAVE TO BE AMAZING TO BE A CAPTAIN...I mean isn't that right??? They just don't give to the next guy in line right??
I mean lets say a guy with little experience say in aaaa....oh...I don't know an ATR-42 or a Beech 1900 for example comes to Airtran when they were a long shot and because no one else would hire them , they wouldn't upgrade that kinda guy right?? Nahh I didn't think so your sitting in your seat because you are special...yep that's it!! I knew it all along.
Hey all you F/O's out there listen up!!! we have a Airtran Captain in need so lets do our part to ensure he and his family can get by....I mean guys and gals where would our airline be without a guy of this caliber....man I can only hope some day soon and I hope it is sooner than later I can fly with a master of his craft so that maybe...just maybe you can impart some of your knowledge and skills my way man...and listen in the interim throw us your name and address so that maybe all of us Airtran F/O's can funnel some money your way.
Take care my friend...hang in there and God speed

I have no idea what the hell your trying to say. Compose your thoughts and present them clear and concise please. What does my experience in ATR's and 1900's have to do with anything. I also flew MD-80's and 747's for a little bit. So what?