QOL @ NetJets

[sluggo]

I've been a 121 airline guy for the last 10 years... I'm not into making a ton of cash, I'm all about QOL and time off. I've been at F9 for the last 3 years.

I've been reading on here that the QOL is pretty good at NetJets. Maybe I don't see it, but 7/7 seems a bit rough.

How is 7/7 in reality & do you NetJet's pilots think your QOL is better than the 121 airline pilots?

Thanks for your input!

& merry Christmas by the way!

 

[CA1900]

How is 7/7 in reality & do you NetJet's pilots think your QOL is better than the 121 airline pilots?

My background is from a 121 regional, so I never experienced the lifestyle that a super-senior captain at a major airline enjoyed. On the positive side, you'll start with a much better schedule here than a junior guy at any major. On the downside, it doesn't get a whole lot better as you get more senior, as you'll work the same number of workdays, minus the extra vacation time the senior folks get.


I left the regional a little over a year ago to come to NetJets, and have had absolutely zero regrets about changing career "gears."

It's the best move I've made in my career. I say that despite my former chief pilot's suggestion, when I called to quit, that I was making a mistake giving up flying a Dash-8 to be a "glorified baggage handler" (his words). Nice guy, but he really doesn't understand what it is we do.


To answer your question, 7/7 isn't bad at all to me. I feel less tired after a 7-day tour here than I did after a 4- or 5-day tour at my airline. A lot of that relates to quality of life while on the road, too. We stay in very nice hotels most of the time, we eat catered crew meals instead of fast food in the terminal (quality varies, but always better than Burger Crap any day of the week), and so on.

We're limited to 14 hours of duty, with 10 hours minimum rest; that was an improvement over 121 for me, where 8- to 9-hour overnights were typical at my old carrier. And if you've had a particularly brutal day, you call in and tell them you need more rest to be safe. You'll get it, per our contract. I did it 3 times in my first year here, when it was just a bad idea to press on with scheduling's plan. They'll sometimes work you 'til you cry "uncle," but if it's too much, you have an easy out.


Also consider how much actual time you'll be out flying. Once you're done with training, and on the 7/7 (if you want it), subtract out two weeks for the semi-annual simulator session, another week for company recurrent ground school, and two more weeks of vacation. That's only 21 weeks out of 52 that you're actually out flying. Less as you get more senior (after 10 years, 4 weeks of vacation). Additional days off for paid time off (12 days a year, available for sick time or personal days, with some limits).



On the road, I've found lots of little quality-of-life differences that I've almost started taking for granted, but were a constant source of irritation at the airline job. Some examples:

• Hotel vans. More often than not, we don't have to wait for one. I frequently would wait 30-40 minutes for our hotel to pick us up in frozen BUF, and it was a real pain. Now, if the hotel is close by, the FBO will either take us, or loan us a crew car for the night to take ourselves. Had that happen down in the Florida Keys a couple months ago; that was a lot of fun.
• Even the worst FBOs are dramatically more comfortable facilities than airline terminals. Almost all have free WiFi, computers to use, satellite big-screen TV, and more. I mean, honestly, would you rather kill an hour here, or here?
• Food's much better than any airport fast food, and undoubtedly healthier. Some crew meals are better than others, but we have a menu to choose from that varies by location, and you can usually find something you'll like. On the menu are basics like salads and sandwiches, to better stuff like crabcakes and ropa vieja. The blackened tilapia salad I had in FLL the other day was just outstanding.
• No jumpseating or non-reving, for what that's worth anymore. But frequent-flier miles turn into positive-space tickets. Even more valuable, we keep the points at the hotels, which are Hilton properties more than any other (we get their Diamond status automatically). I started out on the line in March, and already have enough points for five nights in the nicest Hilton properties, or more nights at less expensive hotels.

Downsides? Well, we're an on-demand business; you can't bid trips ahead of time. You never know where you'll finish each day, nor do you know whether you'll be doing mornings, evenings, redeyes, or a combination during the week. You'll have to be a little adaptable to that, but if they do something ridiculous that a human body can't do, then the fatigue call is the tool for the job. I'll do what I can, but I can't do a 6am start one day, and a midnight start the next. I'm not that adaptable!

Also, those airline terminals you learn to hate? Well, we're usually in them a couple times a week, getting between our home bases and the planes we're assigned. Sometimes we'll happen to be where a plane is, but not often. (In fact, I haven't yet picked a plane up at my base since I've been here!)

I'm sure others will have more to contribute, but that's a little glimpse of life on the road for us.

 

[johnsonrod]

Not having to commute should improve QOL big time. Check out the latest visual of the 100 domiciles from another post below. You don't bid domiciles - you select the one you want and you get it (I believe you give 30 days notice if you want to switch to another domicile).

http://gc.kls2.com/cgi-bin/gc?PATH=...-STYLE=best&RANGE-COLOR=navy&MAP-STYLE=visual

 

[208starcheck]

CA1900 has nailed it on the head. I came from cargo but his explaination of the job is spot on. I'm in Key West right now with a broken airplane. Looks like we are going to be here 2 full days hanging out in town waiting for the plane to get fixed.

 

[Guitar Guy]

How is 7/7 in reality & do you NetJet's pilots think your QOL is better than the 121 airline pilots?

Thanks for your input!

& merry Christmas by the way!

I flew at a regional for 4 years before coming to NJA. Prior to that, I worked a tech job for a major in its flight ops area. With that said, I'm very satisfied with my QOL at NetJets.

As for the 7/7 itself, I really enjoyed it (I'm currently on the 18-day reserve due to a fleet change). The 7 days usually tend to go by fairly quickly and having 7 days off is really great - you have a lot of time to do whatever you choose. And with the 7/7 schedule, one week of vacation is 3 weeks off.

If you feel like 7 days is just too long for you, there are 2 other schedules. They are the 15-day Flex and the 18-day Fixed. The Flex is actually 2 less work days per year but pays 10% more than the 7/7 due to the "flexibility" required of the pilot on the Flex. That person doesn't have a set schedule but no tour is more than 5 days in length (it could be less) and once you come home, you have a minimum of 3 days off. Once you reach 15 duty days in a month, the rest of the month is yours.

On the 18-day, tour lengths can vary. The max length is normally 7 days but once per bid period (which is 4 months long), they can keep you for 8 days. The time off varies on depending on the tour length: 6 days or less tour is 3 days off, 7 days gets you 4 days, and an 8-day tour would yield a minimum of 5 days off. There is also a bid system for requesting either certain days off or requesting longer tours or a "balanced" blend of tour length and days off. We've not gotten our first schedules under the new bid system - we'll see them in mid January.

As for QOL factors, there is no commuting. The company tells you when/where to show at the crew base YOU choose. Once there, you either pick up a company plane, get airlined to a plane or perhaps grab a rental car. On the last day of a tour, the company has to get you home by midnight local or they pay a monetary penalty and lose time off of your next tour equal to the lateness of your return.

As you probably have read, we keep frequent-flier miles and hotel points for our own use. In addition, you and your family (if applicable) are covered for health insurance from day one of ground school and we have no monthly deduction from our paychecks for that benefit.

Downsides? Well, some guys can't stand the fluidity of the schedules. Some guys have big-plane-itis and don't like flying "little jets". Another item to be aware of is that upgrade is very likely a 5+ year wait.

Overall, I'm very pleased at NJA. Feel free to PM if you have more questions.

 

[CA1900]

CA1900 has nailed it on the head. I came from cargo but his explaination of the job is spot on. I'm in Key West right now with a broken airplane. Looks like we are going to be here 2 full days hanging out in town waiting for the plane to get fixed.

I saw my first real-life transvestite in Key West last month. I think he was a full head taller than me!

 

[fischman]

CA1900 has a great summation of what it is like. I have 2 little ones at home, and LOVE the 7&7 schedule. You will know months in advance what days you will be working. QOL? 1000% better than the 121 carrier I was at. Money? I will be a 4 year PIC on the 18 day schedule in Feb and making $118,000 to fly an Ultra. That is BASE salary. I think I will actually make close to $130,000 in '08.

 

[sluggo]

A full head taller huh! Now your scaring me! Thanks for all the great info, I really appreciate it. I'm making some calls and getting the ball rolling. I'm sure my F9 buddies are gonna say "what the hell are you thiking!" From what I've been hearing, NJ sounds like a better deal for my lifestyle... Thanks again!

 

[CA1900]

Glad we could help. Looking at your avatar, you should know we have lots of military helicopter guys here. Once we convinced 'em it was OK to get above 500 feet, they did fine.

 

[johnsonrod]

A full head taller huh! Now your scaring me! Thanks for all the great info, I really appreciate it. I'm making some calls and getting the ball rolling. I'm sure my F9 buddies are gonna say "what the hell are you thiking!" From what I've been hearing, NJ sounds like a better deal for my lifestyle... Thanks again!

I actually think most 121 pilots were skeptical of Netjets a few years back but many now see it as a real alternative to 121 flying. It is the market leader in the fractional world. It has stable, airline-like schedules vs. unstable part 135 schedules. The aircraft are more advanced than 121 aircraft in many cases. The route variety is unmatched - you will not get bored flying to the same cities over and over and over. Netjets also has a bigger fleet and more pilots total than most national airlines. I believe Netjets currently operates more jets than Frontier, Jet Blue and Air Tran combined. And, it's backed by Warren Buffet - there is financial stability. Plus, rich people will do whatever they can to avoid airlines and TSA going forward - that should keep Netjets going strong into the future.

Netjets' recently passed TA also provides the financial incentive for 121 pilots to take a look - starting at $57K (minimum) is not too bad for a newhire.

Two links to review:

Take a look at the Netjets website and fleet review:

http://www.netjets.com/NetJets_Fleet/NetJets_Fleet.asp

Take a look at the current airborne Netjets aircraft on the following link. I counted over 100 aircraft flying at one time on Friday night (including 20 Citation Xs). You can click on the individual flight numbers to see where those aircraft have been over the last few days (layovers, etc.):

http://flightaware.com/live/fleet/EJA

To sum up, Netjets offers a very compelling path for many jaded airline pilots. 100 domiciles, stable schedules, advanced aircraft, very high training standards, great pay and benefits (full health care) and tremendous route variety - those are a few of the benefits. I have my application in (although I have not heard anything yet) and many of my buddies at the regionals do as well. If I were you I would send your stuff in ASAP.

Good luck and happy holidays.

 

[sluggo]

Thanks a million everyone! you've all been a huge help... Now its time to get otta here & do some Christmas eve partying!

 

[Crobar]

Dude Jetnets Sucks, wish I wasn't stuck at this job

 

[johnsonrod]

Dude Jetnets Sucks, wish I wasn't stuck at this job

Drinking and posting at the same time is never advisable...

 

[Heavy Set]

You can't beat the growth prospects at many of these fractionals. Wealthy people will do whatever they can to avoid the airlines and TSA hassles. Wealthy people will buy fractions in good times and bad. And buying a fraction of an aircraft makes a lot more sense than buying an entire aircraft to most people (there are always exceptions of course). Big corporations can supplement their own fleets and also require the flexibility that only corporate/fractional aircraft can provide (flying into small towns and at odd times). The "commodification" of airline service (gets worse and worse with no frills) only bolsters the need for fractional flying among corporate executives needing stress-free environments to be productive.

I think Netjets will continue to lead the industry because it has the largest and most comprehensive aircraft fleet (scale helps reduce costs), a global network (Netjets Europe, Middle East and possibly China subsidiaries) and a great reputation (being associated with Warren Buffet helps too).

And remember that you don't have to select the 7/7 over the long term if you don't want it - there are 3 types of schedules (7/7, 15-day and 18-day) to accomodate your interests.

 

[Dr Pepper]

I saw my first real-life transvestite in Key West last month. I think he was a full head taller than me!

I rode the elevator with 2 at the Sheraton next to APA a few days ago.

 

[atr42flyer]

hey guys just another question about netjets. how rare is it to get hired into the large cabin jets vs. base aircraft. i know its alot more money so i was thinking that it doesnt happen but i dont know ********************.

 

[imacdog]

New hires will not go into the 40K+ airplanes. All others are possibilities and they all pay the same.

 

[BengalsFan]

nice picture!

 

[skyaddict]

Great responses so far. Although the new NJA contract changes things a little (mostly for the better, though a few things do amount to small concessions of sorts, well outweighed by the improvements in my view), there are some excellent older threads on the pros/cons of 121 vs fracs in general and 121 vs NJA in particular which you should definitely read. I am too lazy to post a link though.

I am one of the 121 guys (regionals, but including ACA/Indepedence where our contract was rather good as regionals go) who was initially sceptical about fractionals but now that I am here (NJA) would be as hard pressed to go back to the airline lifestyle as I would be to go from broadband back to dial-up.

If one is young enough to still have 25+ years at the airlines, the prospect of eventually enjoying a senior schedule at the majors and enjoying it for a good chunk of time, may be worth sticking it out at the "musical chairs" airline industry, if (big if to my mind) one can stomach the high probability of some bad luck along the way. I find the whole "stepping stone"/"get this job to get that job" mentality of the 121 airlines disheartening, along with the cr*p shoot of bunkruptcies, mergers, etc. and frequently having to go backwards to go forwards and all that. It gets old after a while. It seems like many of those I know from ACA who have not come to NJA, even after landing on their feet, are all mostly looking to jump ship a couple times more on the way to their dream job, and unless they are at Fedex, UPS or SWA (i.e. even if they are now at another major), they are constantly re-considering jumping ship.

Granted, there are no guarantees that some industry shakeup won't eventually hurt NJA, but it is a place where one can not only get an immediate, sharp improvement in QOL over most airline jobs (for years 1-2 at least), but also get benefits of long term growth and stability without nearly as much anxiety during the ride, as in the 121 world. And, except for a select few (Fedex, UPS esp.), the cargo world, while the clientelle (boxes) are less fickle than the internet-fares pax world, seem to schedule crews like dogmeat even compared to the regionals.

7n7 certainly isn't for everyone. But personally I agree with the previous poster's reasons for a 7 day NJ schedule wearing me out less than a 4 or 5 day regional schedule, and the days off are infinitely more enjoyable than the days off of an airline commuter. And there are alternatives to the 7n7 which at least pay even more as compensation.

NJA life isn 't perfect, and I agree it's generally inferior to a good senior, living-in-base airline schedule. But it seems to me that there is so much insecurity and roll of the dice in ever getting, much less maintaining, a senior live-in-domicile 121 lifestyle, that the gamble is only worth it for those who can factor in the likelihood of 2 or 3 job changes (startung at seniority zero again) and the possibility of never getting that golden goose lifestyle at all.

Maybe I'm all wrong, and the combo of massive age 60-65 retirements plus international, mostly trans-pacific asian growth will bring on another "catch me if you can" era of majors lifestyles, but that seems extremely unlikely compared to the frittering away effect of ever more LCCs on the golden goose dreams of life at the majors.

 

[realityman]

One thing I'd like to emphasize, because it seems that it was only mentioned in passing, is that upgrades now look like it'll be AT LEAST 5 years for anyone hired on now.

Yeah, delivery schedules can change, and rapid growth may pick again, but it's important for anyone considering coming here now that realistically you're looking at a long time to upgrade.

Depending on what schedule you choose, you could still be making around $90K after 5 years as an F/O (base salary. You may make over six figures with a little O/T, holiday pay, extra days, etc...).

Just a little food for thought since like a lot of people on here, I too have boasted of some nice income numbers. But to be fair to newhires, it could be a while before you see those numbers here.

On the bright side though, when you do finally upgrade to captain, you'll be at captain's pay for the years of service you've had with the company, not in seat. So a 5th year F/O upgrading to captain will start at 5th year captain's pay, which is quite nice.

As for the QOL here at NJA, what everyone else said. It's not for everyone, but it's been an extremely good gig for me. A pretty decent balance of work and home life. 7 days on the road does get a little long, but it's manageable for all the reasons everyone else has posted here.