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QOL @ NetJets

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sluggo

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 4, 2005
Posts
150
I've been a 121 airline guy for the last 10 years... I'm not into making a ton of cash, I'm all about QOL and time off. I've been at F9 for the last 3 years.

I've been reading on here that the QOL is pretty good at NetJets. Maybe I don't see it, but 7/7 seems a bit rough.

How is 7/7 in reality & do you NetJet's pilots think your QOL is better than the 121 airline pilots?

Thanks for your input!

& merry Christmas by the way!
 
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How is 7/7 in reality & do you NetJet's pilots think your QOL is better than the 121 airline pilots?

My background is from a 121 regional, so I never experienced the lifestyle that a super-senior captain at a major airline enjoyed. On the positive side, you'll start with a much better schedule here than a junior guy at any major. On the downside, it doesn't get a whole lot better as you get more senior, as you'll work the same number of workdays, minus the extra vacation time the senior folks get.


I left the regional a little over a year ago to come to NetJets, and have had absolutely zero regrets about changing career "gears."

It's the best move I've made in my career. I say that despite my former chief pilot's suggestion, when I called to quit, that I was making a mistake giving up flying a Dash-8 to be a "glorified baggage handler" (his words). Nice guy, but he really doesn't understand what it is we do.


To answer your question, 7/7 isn't bad at all to me. I feel less tired after a 7-day tour here than I did after a 4- or 5-day tour at my airline. A lot of that relates to quality of life while on the road, too. We stay in very nice hotels most of the time, we eat catered crew meals instead of fast food in the terminal (quality varies, but always better than Burger Crap any day of the week), and so on.

We're limited to 14 hours of duty, with 10 hours minimum rest; that was an improvement over 121 for me, where 8- to 9-hour overnights were typical at my old carrier. And if you've had a particularly brutal day, you call in and tell them you need more rest to be safe. You'll get it, per our contract. I did it 3 times in my first year here, when it was just a bad idea to press on with scheduling's plan. They'll sometimes work you 'til you cry "uncle," but if it's too much, you have an easy out.


Also consider how much actual time you'll be out flying. Once you're done with training, and on the 7/7 (if you want it), subtract out two weeks for the semi-annual simulator session, another week for company recurrent ground school, and two more weeks of vacation. That's only 21 weeks out of 52 that you're actually out flying. Less as you get more senior (after 10 years, 4 weeks of vacation). Additional days off for paid time off (12 days a year, available for sick time or personal days, with some limits).



On the road, I've found lots of little quality-of-life differences that I've almost started taking for granted, but were a constant source of irritation at the airline job. Some examples:
  • Hotel vans. More often than not, we don't have to wait for one. I frequently would wait 30-40 minutes for our hotel to pick us up in frozen BUF, and it was a real pain. Now, if the hotel is close by, the FBO will either take us, or loan us a crew car for the night to take ourselves. Had that happen down in the Florida Keys a couple months ago; that was a lot of fun.
  • Even the worst FBOs are dramatically more comfortable facilities than airline terminals. Almost all have free WiFi, computers to use, satellite big-screen TV, and more. I mean, honestly, would you rather kill an hour here, or here? :D
  • Food's much better than any airport fast food, and undoubtedly healthier. Some crew meals are better than others, but we have a menu to choose from that varies by location, and you can usually find something you'll like. On the menu are basics like salads and sandwiches, to better stuff like crabcakes and ropa vieja. The blackened tilapia salad I had in FLL the other day was just outstanding.
  • No jumpseating or non-reving, for what that's worth anymore. But frequent-flier miles turn into positive-space tickets. Even more valuable, we keep the points at the hotels, which are Hilton properties more than any other (we get their Diamond status automatically). I started out on the line in March, and already have enough points for five nights in the nicest Hilton properties, or more nights at less expensive hotels.
Downsides? Well, we're an on-demand business; you can't bid trips ahead of time. You never know where you'll finish each day, nor do you know whether you'll be doing mornings, evenings, redeyes, or a combination during the week. You'll have to be a little adaptable to that, but if they do something ridiculous that a human body can't do, then the fatigue call is the tool for the job. I'll do what I can, but I can't do a 6am start one day, and a midnight start the next. I'm not that adaptable!

Also, those airline terminals you learn to hate? Well, we're usually in them a couple times a week, getting between our home bases and the planes we're assigned. Sometimes we'll happen to be where a plane is, but not often. (In fact, I haven't yet picked a plane up at my base since I've been here!)

I'm sure others will have more to contribute, but that's a little glimpse of life on the road for us.
 
CA1900 has nailed it on the head. I came from cargo but his explaination of the job is spot on. I'm in Key West right now with a broken airplane. Looks like we are going to be here 2 full days hanging out in town waiting for the plane to get fixed.
 
How is 7/7 in reality & do you NetJet's pilots think your QOL is better than the 121 airline pilots?

Thanks for your input!

& merry Christmas by the way!

I flew at a regional for 4 years before coming to NJA. Prior to that, I worked a tech job for a major in its flight ops area. With that said, I'm very satisfied with my QOL at NetJets.

As for the 7/7 itself, I really enjoyed it (I'm currently on the 18-day reserve due to a fleet change). The 7 days usually tend to go by fairly quickly and having 7 days off is really great - you have a lot of time to do whatever you choose. And with the 7/7 schedule, one week of vacation is 3 weeks off.

If you feel like 7 days is just too long for you, there are 2 other schedules. They are the 15-day Flex and the 18-day Fixed. The Flex is actually 2 less work days per year but pays 10% more than the 7/7 due to the "flexibility" required of the pilot on the Flex. That person doesn't have a set schedule but no tour is more than 5 days in length (it could be less) and once you come home, you have a minimum of 3 days off. Once you reach 15 duty days in a month, the rest of the month is yours.

On the 18-day, tour lengths can vary. The max length is normally 7 days but once per bid period (which is 4 months long), they can keep you for 8 days. The time off varies on depending on the tour length: 6 days or less tour is 3 days off, 7 days gets you 4 days, and an 8-day tour would yield a minimum of 5 days off. There is also a bid system for requesting either certain days off or requesting longer tours or a "balanced" blend of tour length and days off. We've not gotten our first schedules under the new bid system - we'll see them in mid January.

As for QOL factors, there is no commuting. The company tells you when/where to show at the crew base YOU choose. Once there, you either pick up a company plane, get airlined to a plane or perhaps grab a rental car. On the last day of a tour, the company has to get you home by midnight local or they pay a monetary penalty and lose time off of your next tour equal to the lateness of your return.

As you probably have read, we keep frequent-flier miles and hotel points for our own use. In addition, you and your family (if applicable) are covered for health insurance from day one of ground school and we have no monthly deduction from our paychecks for that benefit.

Downsides? Well, some guys can't stand the fluidity of the schedules. Some guys have big-plane-itis and don't like flying "little jets". Another item to be aware of is that upgrade is very likely a 5+ year wait.

Overall, I'm very pleased at NJA. Feel free to PM if you have more questions.
 
CA1900 has nailed it on the head. I came from cargo but his explaination of the job is spot on. I'm in Key West right now with a broken airplane. Looks like we are going to be here 2 full days hanging out in town waiting for the plane to get fixed.

I saw my first real-life transvestite in Key West last month. I think he was a full head taller than me! :eek:
 
CA1900 has a great summation of what it is like. I have 2 little ones at home, and LOVE the 7&7 schedule. You will know months in advance what days you will be working. QOL? 1000% better than the 121 carrier I was at. Money? I will be a 4 year PIC on the 18 day schedule in Feb and making $118,000 to fly an Ultra. That is BASE salary. I think I will actually make close to $130,000 in '08.
 
A full head taller huh! Now your scaring me! Thanks for all the great info, I really appreciate it. I'm making some calls and getting the ball rolling. I'm sure my F9 buddies are gonna say "what the hell are you thiking!" From what I've been hearing, NJ sounds like a better deal for my lifestyle... Thanks again!
 
Glad we could help. Looking at your avatar, you should know we have lots of military helicopter guys here. Once we convinced 'em it was OK to get above 500 feet, they did fine. :D :D
 
A full head taller huh! Now your scaring me! Thanks for all the great info, I really appreciate it. I'm making some calls and getting the ball rolling. I'm sure my F9 buddies are gonna say "what the hell are you thiking!" From what I've been hearing, NJ sounds like a better deal for my lifestyle... Thanks again!

I actually think most 121 pilots were skeptical of Netjets a few years back but many now see it as a real alternative to 121 flying. It is the market leader in the fractional world. It has stable, airline-like schedules vs. unstable part 135 schedules. The aircraft are more advanced than 121 aircraft in many cases. The route variety is unmatched - you will not get bored flying to the same cities over and over and over. Netjets also has a bigger fleet and more pilots total than most national airlines. I believe Netjets currently operates more jets than Frontier, Jet Blue and Air Tran combined. And, it's backed by Warren Buffet - there is financial stability. Plus, rich people will do whatever they can to avoid airlines and TSA going forward - that should keep Netjets going strong into the future.

Netjets' recently passed TA also provides the financial incentive for 121 pilots to take a look - starting at $57K (minimum) is not too bad for a newhire.

Two links to review:

Take a look at the Netjets website and fleet review:

http://www.netjets.com/NetJets_Fleet/NetJets_Fleet.asp

Take a look at the current airborne Netjets aircraft on the following link. I counted over 100 aircraft flying at one time on Friday night (including 20 Citation Xs). You can click on the individual flight numbers to see where those aircraft have been over the last few days (layovers, etc.):

http://flightaware.com/live/fleet/EJA

To sum up, Netjets offers a very compelling path for many jaded airline pilots. 100 domiciles, stable schedules, advanced aircraft, very high training standards, great pay and benefits (full health care) and tremendous route variety - those are a few of the benefits. I have my application in (although I have not heard anything yet) and many of my buddies at the regionals do as well. If I were you I would send your stuff in ASAP.

Good luck and happy holidays.
 
Thanks a million everyone! you've all been a huge help... Now its time to get otta here & do some Christmas eve partying!
 
You can't beat the growth prospects at many of these fractionals. Wealthy people will do whatever they can to avoid the airlines and TSA hassles. Wealthy people will buy fractions in good times and bad. And buying a fraction of an aircraft makes a lot more sense than buying an entire aircraft to most people (there are always exceptions of course). Big corporations can supplement their own fleets and also require the flexibility that only corporate/fractional aircraft can provide (flying into small towns and at odd times). The "commodification" of airline service (gets worse and worse with no frills) only bolsters the need for fractional flying among corporate executives needing stress-free environments to be productive.

I think Netjets will continue to lead the industry because it has the largest and most comprehensive aircraft fleet (scale helps reduce costs), a global network (Netjets Europe, Middle East and possibly China subsidiaries) and a great reputation (being associated with Warren Buffet helps too).

And remember that you don't have to select the 7/7 over the long term if you don't want it - there are 3 types of schedules (7/7, 15-day and 18-day) to accomodate your interests.
 
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hey guys just another question about netjets. how rare is it to get hired into the large cabin jets vs. base aircraft. i know its alot more money so i was thinking that it doesnt happen but i dont know ********************.
 
New hires will not go into the 40K+ airplanes. All others are possibilities and they all pay the same.
 
Great responses so far. Although the new NJA contract changes things a little (mostly for the better, though a few things do amount to small concessions of sorts, well outweighed by the improvements in my view), there are some excellent older threads on the pros/cons of 121 vs fracs in general and 121 vs NJA in particular which you should definitely read. I am too lazy to post a link though.

I am one of the 121 guys (regionals, but including ACA/Indepedence where our contract was rather good as regionals go) who was initially sceptical about fractionals but now that I am here (NJA) would be as hard pressed to go back to the airline lifestyle as I would be to go from broadband back to dial-up.

If one is young enough to still have 25+ years at the airlines, the prospect of eventually enjoying a senior schedule at the majors and enjoying it for a good chunk of time, may be worth sticking it out at the "musical chairs" airline industry, if (big if to my mind) one can stomach the high probability of some bad luck along the way. I find the whole "stepping stone"/"get this job to get that job" mentality of the 121 airlines disheartening, along with the cr*p shoot of bunkruptcies, mergers, etc. and frequently having to go backwards to go forwards and all that. It gets old after a while. It seems like many of those I know from ACA who have not come to NJA, even after landing on their feet, are all mostly looking to jump ship a couple times more on the way to their dream job, and unless they are at Fedex, UPS or SWA (i.e. even if they are now at another major), they are constantly re-considering jumping ship.

Granted, there are no guarantees that some industry shakeup won't eventually hurt NJA, but it is a place where one can not only get an immediate, sharp improvement in QOL over most airline jobs (for years 1-2 at least), but also get benefits of long term growth and stability without nearly as much anxiety during the ride, as in the 121 world. And, except for a select few (Fedex, UPS esp.), the cargo world, while the clientelle (boxes) are less fickle than the internet-fares pax world, seem to schedule crews like dogmeat even compared to the regionals.

7n7 certainly isn't for everyone. But personally I agree with the previous poster's reasons for a 7 day NJ schedule wearing me out less than a 4 or 5 day regional schedule, and the days off are infinitely more enjoyable than the days off of an airline commuter. And there are alternatives to the 7n7 which at least pay even more as compensation.

NJA life isn 't perfect, and I agree it's generally inferior to a good senior, living-in-base airline schedule. But it seems to me that there is so much insecurity and roll of the dice in ever getting, much less maintaining, a senior live-in-domicile 121 lifestyle, that the gamble is only worth it for those who can factor in the likelihood of 2 or 3 job changes (startung at seniority zero again) and the possibility of never getting that golden goose lifestyle at all.

Maybe I'm all wrong, and the combo of massive age 60-65 retirements plus international, mostly trans-pacific asian growth will bring on another "catch me if you can" era of majors lifestyles, but that seems extremely unlikely compared to the frittering away effect of ever more LCCs on the golden goose dreams of life at the majors.
 
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One thing I'd like to emphasize, because it seems that it was only mentioned in passing, is that upgrades now look like it'll be AT LEAST 5 years for anyone hired on now.

Yeah, delivery schedules can change, and rapid growth may pick again, but it's important for anyone considering coming here now that realistically you're looking at a long time to upgrade.

Depending on what schedule you choose, you could still be making around $90K after 5 years as an F/O (base salary. You may make over six figures with a little O/T, holiday pay, extra days, etc...).

Just a little food for thought since like a lot of people on here, I too have boasted of some nice income numbers. But to be fair to newhires, it could be a while before you see those numbers here.

On the bright side though, when you do finally upgrade to captain, you'll be at captain's pay for the years of service you've had with the company, not in seat. So a 5th year F/O upgrading to captain will start at 5th year captain's pay, which is quite nice.

As for the QOL here at NJA, what everyone else said. It's not for everyone, but it's been an extremely good gig for me. A pretty decent balance of work and home life. 7 days on the road does get a little long, but it's manageable for all the reasons everyone else has posted here.
 
Hi!

NWA and DAL were both down to about 4-5 years, but then age 65 happened, which will for sure increase the upgrade times.

I don't see anyone at a major upgrading in less time than a NJA pilot now.

cliff
YYZ
 
I dont care how long it takes to upgrade at Netjets. I'm planning on it being my last place (hopefully). I just gave my notice to Jetblue:D ......felt kinda nice. I start 7 Jan 08 Indoc....anyone else starting on that day?
 
I dont care how long it takes to upgrade at Netjets. I'm planning on it being my last place (hopefully). I just gave my notice to Jetblue:D ......felt kinda nice. I start 7 Jan 08 Indoc....anyone else starting on that day?

You're not the only one who has jumped from JB to Netjets recently. I know of a few others.

With regard to upgrades, 5 years is a long time but 10-12 years at SWA is even longer... Sure, SWA FOs make a lot of money relatively speaking, but things aren't always greener on the other side of the fence. Focusing on the full package of QOL, compensation/benefits and overall stability is the right thing to do.
 
With regard to upgrades, 5 years is a long time but 10-12 years at SWA is even longer... Sure, SWA FOs make a lot of money relatively speaking, but things aren't always greener on the other side of the fence. Focusing on the full package of QOL, compensation/benefits and overall stability is the right thing to do.

The above is a very wise statement! If you want to fully enjoy your employment at NJA you must approach it with this line of thinking. As a NJA pilot, I can always find somewhere paying their pilots more, better type of schedule, on and on and on. Bottom line, at the end of the day I am as happy at NJA as a pig in mud! I am not so sure I would be able to make that statement if I worked for DAL, NWA, UAL, AAL, insert your airline here. I have full faith that the 1108 will continue full-speed ahead making our lives as NJA pilots better.
 
Yeah, it's kinda weird. They're jumping ship at JetBlue like rats off a sinking vessel. I just finished my last tour with IOE for a guy who came over from JB. What's the deal? Is JB pulling a Titanic?
I've only ridden on them once, but it was a good experience and I thought, comparativily in the airline world, it was a pretty good product.

You know, looking back at 11 years with NJA, it's amazing how far we've come and how attitudes towards us have actually remained constant throughout.
At first, everyone hated us. They hated us because we were expanding, and supposedly corporate flight departments were shutting down because the boss felt it was financially better to be with us than keep a corporate aircraft. And they hated us because we were paid so little, that we were dragging the bar down and lowering compensation packages across the entire industry. In essence, the whores of the private jet world. They hated our union and held it up as an example of why unions are so bad, because we're weak! And they hated us because we were just a rock in the stream, a stepping stone to build time to go fly for UAL, DAL, and yes, JetBlue.

And now? They still hate us. The hate us because our greedy union will ultimately bankrupt the company. Before, we were making too little money. Now, we're making too much. They hate the fact that our union is now strong. That somehow having a union now MEANS something. They hate us for our success. Hey! It's aviation. We're supposed make and lose money along with the cycles of the rest of the industry! What's with this positive growth and success under all circumstances? They hate us now because people are actually LEAVING the majors to come fly for us.

Who is "they"? You'll know them when you hear them. They're the ones on this message board and others who never have a positive thing to say about NJA or our union, whether we were making poor livings, or making a good one. Whether the company makes money or loses. Whether we close flight departments, or ultimately open them as some owners learn that private jets are nice and leave us to buy and fly their own jet.

So I say, come on over! Send us your poor, your haggard, your downtrodden! Let the haters fly for JetBlue! We have more than enough snacks and Fiji water for the wretched masses of thirsty pilots who haven't felt the love! Soon, we will all rise up as one, and B19 and the rest of the haters will find themselves on 'ignore' lists around the world!

Oh, sorry. Sugar rush from all the holiday cookies.:0
 
Excellent thread with some good info. I think NetJets would be a great place to work. There are certain aspects of NJ that are very appealing, specifically not having to commute. Every job has it's +/- and IMO you could do a lot worse than NJ. Right now I fly for JetBlue and I like it. I like our scheduling flexibilty and I like the way I'm dealt with. Professionally, courteously and reasonably. That said, if something were to happen and I lost my current job my first choice for employment would be NetJets.

I don't mind 121 flying at all. I'm sure fractional is a bit different, but most of the comments I read from former 121 types usually talk about how they are treated and the QOL vice the actual flying part. Flying is flying. It's what happens in between that affects your QOL. A good company is a good company whether they are 121 or frax. Sounds like NetJets is a good company.
 
They hate us now because people are actually LEAVING the majors to come fly for us.


It's not just pilots who are leaving. I just spent 2 hours talking with an Owner that was all too happy to join our Marqui Jet program after dealing with 45 minute drives to LAX to fly on SWA to SFO. One too many delays, excuses and TSA experiences.

Yes, occasionally we experience delays here too. The difference is that I am totally accessable and I will offer ANY information that I have to the Owner to make the experience more understandable. Face-to-face communication, 18 inches away complete with eye contact is comparison to an over worked, under paid agent behind a large podium/counter staring at a computer screen.
 
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