atr42flyer
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QOL @ NetJets
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BengalsFan
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Great responses so far. Although the new NJA contract changes things a little (mostly for the better, though a few things do amount to small concessions of sorts, well outweighed by the improvements in my view), there are some excellent older threads on the pros/cons of 121 vs fracs in general and 121 vs NJA in particular which you should definitely read. I am too lazy to post a link though.
I am one of the 121 guys (regionals, but including ACA/Indepedence where our contract was rather good as regionals go) who was initially sceptical about fractionals but now that I am here (NJA) would be as hard pressed to go back to the airline lifestyle as I would be to go from broadband back to dial-up.
If one is young enough to still have 25+ years at the airlines, the prospect of eventually enjoying a senior schedule at the majors and enjoying it for a good chunk of time, may be worth sticking it out at the "musical chairs" airline industry, if (big if to my mind) one can stomach the high probability of some bad luck along the way. I find the whole "stepping stone"/"get this job to get that job" mentality of the 121 airlines disheartening, along with the cr*p shoot of bunkruptcies, mergers, etc. and frequently having to go backwards to go forwards and all that. It gets old after a while. It seems like many of those I know from ACA who have not come to NJA, even after landing on their feet, are all mostly looking to jump ship a couple times more on the way to their dream job, and unless they are at Fedex, UPS or SWA (i.e. even if they are now at another major), they are constantly re-considering jumping ship.
Granted, there are no guarantees that some industry shakeup won't eventually hurt NJA, but it is a place where one can not only get an immediate, sharp improvement in QOL over most airline jobs (for years 1-2 at least), but also get benefits of long term growth and stability without nearly as much anxiety during the ride, as in the 121 world. And, except for a select few (Fedex, UPS esp.), the cargo world, while the clientelle (boxes) are less fickle than the internet-fares pax world, seem to schedule crews like dogmeat even compared to the regionals.
7n7 certainly isn't for everyone. But personally I agree with the previous poster's reasons for a 7 day NJ schedule wearing me out less than a 4 or 5 day regional schedule, and the days off are infinitely more enjoyable than the days off of an airline commuter. And there are alternatives to the 7n7 which at least pay even more as compensation.
NJA life isn 't perfect, and I agree it's generally inferior to a good senior, living-in-base airline schedule. But it seems to me that there is so much insecurity and roll of the dice in ever getting, much less maintaining, a senior live-in-domicile 121 lifestyle, that the gamble is only worth it for those who can factor in the likelihood of 2 or 3 job changes (startung at seniority zero again) and the possibility of never getting that golden goose lifestyle at all.
Maybe I'm all wrong, and the combo of massive age 60-65 retirements plus international, mostly trans-pacific asian growth will bring on another "catch me if you can" era of majors lifestyles, but that seems extremely unlikely compared to the frittering away effect of ever more LCCs on the golden goose dreams of life at the majors.
I am one of the 121 guys (regionals, but including ACA/Indepedence where our contract was rather good as regionals go) who was initially sceptical about fractionals but now that I am here (NJA) would be as hard pressed to go back to the airline lifestyle as I would be to go from broadband back to dial-up.
If one is young enough to still have 25+ years at the airlines, the prospect of eventually enjoying a senior schedule at the majors and enjoying it for a good chunk of time, may be worth sticking it out at the "musical chairs" airline industry, if (big if to my mind) one can stomach the high probability of some bad luck along the way. I find the whole "stepping stone"/"get this job to get that job" mentality of the 121 airlines disheartening, along with the cr*p shoot of bunkruptcies, mergers, etc. and frequently having to go backwards to go forwards and all that. It gets old after a while. It seems like many of those I know from ACA who have not come to NJA, even after landing on their feet, are all mostly looking to jump ship a couple times more on the way to their dream job, and unless they are at Fedex, UPS or SWA (i.e. even if they are now at another major), they are constantly re-considering jumping ship.
Granted, there are no guarantees that some industry shakeup won't eventually hurt NJA, but it is a place where one can not only get an immediate, sharp improvement in QOL over most airline jobs (for years 1-2 at least), but also get benefits of long term growth and stability without nearly as much anxiety during the ride, as in the 121 world. And, except for a select few (Fedex, UPS esp.), the cargo world, while the clientelle (boxes) are less fickle than the internet-fares pax world, seem to schedule crews like dogmeat even compared to the regionals.
7n7 certainly isn't for everyone. But personally I agree with the previous poster's reasons for a 7 day NJ schedule wearing me out less than a 4 or 5 day regional schedule, and the days off are infinitely more enjoyable than the days off of an airline commuter. And there are alternatives to the 7n7 which at least pay even more as compensation.
NJA life isn 't perfect, and I agree it's generally inferior to a good senior, living-in-base airline schedule. But it seems to me that there is so much insecurity and roll of the dice in ever getting, much less maintaining, a senior live-in-domicile 121 lifestyle, that the gamble is only worth it for those who can factor in the likelihood of 2 or 3 job changes (startung at seniority zero again) and the possibility of never getting that golden goose lifestyle at all.
Maybe I'm all wrong, and the combo of massive age 60-65 retirements plus international, mostly trans-pacific asian growth will bring on another "catch me if you can" era of majors lifestyles, but that seems extremely unlikely compared to the frittering away effect of ever more LCCs on the golden goose dreams of life at the majors.
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realityman
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One thing I'd like to emphasize, because it seems that it was only mentioned in passing, is that upgrades now look like it'll be AT LEAST 5 years for anyone hired on now.
Yeah, delivery schedules can change, and rapid growth may pick again, but it's important for anyone considering coming here now that realistically you're looking at a long time to upgrade.
Depending on what schedule you choose, you could still be making around $90K after 5 years as an F/O (base salary. You may make over six figures with a little O/T, holiday pay, extra days, etc...).
Just a little food for thought since like a lot of people on here, I too have boasted of some nice income numbers. But to be fair to newhires, it could be a while before you see those numbers here.
On the bright side though, when you do finally upgrade to captain, you'll be at captain's pay for the years of service you've had with the company, not in seat. So a 5th year F/O upgrading to captain will start at 5th year captain's pay, which is quite nice.
As for the QOL here at NJA, what everyone else said. It's not for everyone, but it's been an extremely good gig for me. A pretty decent balance of work and home life. 7 days on the road does get a little long, but it's manageable for all the reasons everyone else has posted here.
Yeah, delivery schedules can change, and rapid growth may pick again, but it's important for anyone considering coming here now that realistically you're looking at a long time to upgrade.
Depending on what schedule you choose, you could still be making around $90K after 5 years as an F/O (base salary. You may make over six figures with a little O/T, holiday pay, extra days, etc...).
Just a little food for thought since like a lot of people on here, I too have boasted of some nice income numbers. But to be fair to newhires, it could be a while before you see those numbers here.
On the bright side though, when you do finally upgrade to captain, you'll be at captain's pay for the years of service you've had with the company, not in seat. So a 5th year F/O upgrading to captain will start at 5th year captain's pay, which is quite nice.
As for the QOL here at NJA, what everyone else said. It's not for everyone, but it's been an extremely good gig for me. A pretty decent balance of work and home life. 7 days on the road does get a little long, but it's manageable for all the reasons everyone else has posted here.
av8tor4239
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On Your Six
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I dont care how long it takes to upgrade at Netjets. I'm planning on it being my last place (hopefully). I just gave my notice to Jetblue......felt kinda nice. I start 7 Jan 08 Indoc....anyone else starting on that day?
You're not the only one who has jumped from JB to Netjets recently. I know of a few others.
With regard to upgrades, 5 years is a long time but 10-12 years at SWA is even longer... Sure, SWA FOs make a lot of money relatively speaking, but things aren't always greener on the other side of the fence. Focusing on the full package of QOL, compensation/benefits and overall stability is the right thing to do.
The above is a very wise statement! If you want to fully enjoy your employment at NJA you must approach it with this line of thinking. As a NJA pilot, I can always find somewhere paying their pilots more, better type of schedule, on and on and on. Bottom line, at the end of the day I am as happy at NJA as a pig in mud! I am not so sure I would be able to make that statement if I worked for DAL, NWA, UAL, AAL, insert your airline here. I have full faith that the 1108 will continue full-speed ahead making our lives as NJA pilots better.
realityman
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Yeah, it's kinda weird. They're jumping ship at JetBlue like rats off a sinking vessel. I just finished my last tour with IOE for a guy who came over from JB. What's the deal? Is JB pulling a Titanic?
I've only ridden on them once, but it was a good experience and I thought, comparativily in the airline world, it was a pretty good product.
You know, looking back at 11 years with NJA, it's amazing how far we've come and how attitudes towards us have actually remained constant throughout.
At first, everyone hated us. They hated us because we were expanding, and supposedly corporate flight departments were shutting down because the boss felt it was financially better to be with us than keep a corporate aircraft. And they hated us because we were paid so little, that we were dragging the bar down and lowering compensation packages across the entire industry. In essence, the whores of the private jet world. They hated our union and held it up as an example of why unions are so bad, because we're weak! And they hated us because we were just a rock in the stream, a stepping stone to build time to go fly for UAL, DAL, and yes, JetBlue.
And now? They still hate us. The hate us because our greedy union will ultimately bankrupt the company. Before, we were making too little money. Now, we're making too much. They hate the fact that our union is now strong. That somehow having a union now MEANS something. They hate us for our success. Hey! It's aviation. We're supposed make and lose money along with the cycles of the rest of the industry! What's with this positive growth and success under all circumstances? They hate us now because people are actually LEAVING the majors to come fly for us.
Who is "they"? You'll know them when you hear them. They're the ones on this message board and others who never have a positive thing to say about NJA or our union, whether we were making poor livings, or making a good one. Whether the company makes money or loses. Whether we close flight departments, or ultimately open them as some owners learn that private jets are nice and leave us to buy and fly their own jet.
So I say, come on over! Send us your poor, your haggard, your downtrodden! Let the haters fly for JetBlue! We have more than enough snacks and Fiji water for the wretched masses of thirsty pilots who haven't felt the love! Soon, we will all rise up as one, and B19 and the rest of the haters will find themselves on 'ignore' lists around the world!
Oh, sorry. Sugar rush from all the holiday cookies.:0
I've only ridden on them once, but it was a good experience and I thought, comparativily in the airline world, it was a pretty good product.
You know, looking back at 11 years with NJA, it's amazing how far we've come and how attitudes towards us have actually remained constant throughout.
At first, everyone hated us. They hated us because we were expanding, and supposedly corporate flight departments were shutting down because the boss felt it was financially better to be with us than keep a corporate aircraft. And they hated us because we were paid so little, that we were dragging the bar down and lowering compensation packages across the entire industry. In essence, the whores of the private jet world. They hated our union and held it up as an example of why unions are so bad, because we're weak! And they hated us because we were just a rock in the stream, a stepping stone to build time to go fly for UAL, DAL, and yes, JetBlue.
And now? They still hate us. The hate us because our greedy union will ultimately bankrupt the company. Before, we were making too little money. Now, we're making too much. They hate the fact that our union is now strong. That somehow having a union now MEANS something. They hate us for our success. Hey! It's aviation. We're supposed make and lose money along with the cycles of the rest of the industry! What's with this positive growth and success under all circumstances? They hate us now because people are actually LEAVING the majors to come fly for us.
Who is "they"? You'll know them when you hear them. They're the ones on this message board and others who never have a positive thing to say about NJA or our union, whether we were making poor livings, or making a good one. Whether the company makes money or loses. Whether we close flight departments, or ultimately open them as some owners learn that private jets are nice and leave us to buy and fly their own jet.
So I say, come on over! Send us your poor, your haggard, your downtrodden! Let the haters fly for JetBlue! We have more than enough snacks and Fiji water for the wretched masses of thirsty pilots who haven't felt the love! Soon, we will all rise up as one, and B19 and the rest of the haters will find themselves on 'ignore' lists around the world!
Oh, sorry. Sugar rush from all the holiday cookies.:0
Caveman
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Excellent thread with some good info. I think NetJets would be a great place to work. There are certain aspects of NJ that are very appealing, specifically not having to commute. Every job has it's +/- and IMO you could do a lot worse than NJ. Right now I fly for JetBlue and I like it. I like our scheduling flexibilty and I like the way I'm dealt with. Professionally, courteously and reasonably. That said, if something were to happen and I lost my current job my first choice for employment would be NetJets.
I don't mind 121 flying at all. I'm sure fractional is a bit different, but most of the comments I read from former 121 types usually talk about how they are treated and the QOL vice the actual flying part. Flying is flying. It's what happens in between that affects your QOL. A good company is a good company whether they are 121 or frax. Sounds like NetJets is a good company.
I don't mind 121 flying at all. I'm sure fractional is a bit different, but most of the comments I read from former 121 types usually talk about how they are treated and the QOL vice the actual flying part. Flying is flying. It's what happens in between that affects your QOL. A good company is a good company whether they are 121 or frax. Sounds like NetJets is a good company.
FLYLOW22
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FLYLOW22
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It's not just pilots who are leaving. I just spent 2 hours talking with an Owner that was all too happy to join our Marqui Jet program after dealing with 45 minute drives to LAX to fly on SWA to SFO. One too many delays, excuses and TSA experiences.
Yes, occasionally we experience delays here too. The difference is that I am totally accessable and I will offer ANY information that I have to the Owner to make the experience more understandable. Face-to-face communication, 18 inches away complete with eye contact is comparison to an over worked, under paid agent behind a large podium/counter staring at a computer screen.
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