US Airways hiring

[vetrider]

Interesting thread.

Maybe it's the Christmas spirit... hope you guys can work it out, the UAir guys seem pretty ready to burn it down (and I can't say I blame them).

Are you wishing us well? It kinda seems like it, almost, sort of, kind of, but....

No, wait, I get it. You're wishing the east well in there extortion attempt. Thanks for the kind wishes, you're all heart.

 

[Deadalus]

We have the binding arbitration
We have a better contract
We have a lower average age group
We aren't giving any conssessions


We can wait it out. See you in 2009.

Hmmmmm. I like that idea. We'll sit over here enjoying our west bases. If they came up to our contract and we were one list the company would have to hire. The east doesn't need that though because of all their attrition. Oh wait, what about age 65 ? Time for you guys to enjoy some stagnation and lost expectaions for a change . Enjoy your contract. We already passed the window for an improvement on the west's contract. I'm not voting to give you guys a raise after the way you've behaved.

 

[PHXFLYR]

Interesting thread.

Some valid questions, some great answers, then some mud slinging, then some rational conversation...

I don't think I've ever seen a thread go off on a bashing tangent and ever come back to rational discussion, excellent job!

Maybe it's the Christmas spirit... hope you guys can work it out, the UAir guys seem pretty ready to burn it down (and I can't say I blame them).

Which has probably been there intent since day one.

PHXFLYR

 

[PHXFLYR]

Once again, Nicolau made his decision and neither pilot neutral disagreed. This is how he interpreted "career expectations". You're free to disagree with Nicolau's logic but you mustn't forget your side willingly entitled him to make this decision. Sorry, but the core problem with the East is the sense of entitlement. And even though a neutral arbitrator made his decision you feel it's okay to go nuclear to circumvent it. The West didn't create this problem yet you expect us to fix it?Right. That's called extortion. Y'all want the West to unilaterally concede seniority or else you'll put us all out of a job. So what if we call your bluff? You'll get to say "we showed 'em" at your next airline interview(s). A Pyrrhic victory.Well, since you put it that way I'm sure we'll all go for it. (read sarcasm) Tell me honestly, why in the world should the West concede seniority to the East? A true negotiation involves give and take. You just want take. How can you reconcile this unethical behavior?

There's the beauty in it.... You can't.


PHXFLYR

 

[Deadalus]

Interesting thread.

Some valid questions, some great answers, then some mud slinging, then some rational conversation...

I don't think I've ever seen a thread go off on a bashing tangent and ever come back to rational discussion, excellent job!

Maybe it's the Christmas spirit... hope you guys can work it out, the UAir guys seem pretty ready to burn it down (and I can't say I blame them).

Can't say you blame them? They went from a US Airways about to liquadate to a new US Airways with over a 100(92+37+25=154) aircraft on order, making money at $90 oil, and almost $4 billion in cash. They're trying to destroy the company because the binding arbitration they agreed to didn't staple the aquiring airline's pilots under them. Were you dropped on your head one too many times as a child?

 

[PositiveRate]

Not dropped on his head, but his daddy was a US Air pilot. Apparently the entitlement mentality is genetic.

Read his postings RE the merger and the arbitration award from back in May and you'll realize why debating him is not worth your time. He has also since been fired from AirTran - the only thing positive I can say about him is that his efforts to spearhead a better contract for AAI pilots did appear to be well-intentioned. I'm not up to speed on why he was let go. I do know, though, that he was one of the most pro-east guys posting here right after the award came out....


Originally Posted by Lear70
Again, I work for AirTran. I never worked for UAir. My dad is retired UAir (has been for a while), and I don't know anyone there anymore. I don't have an agenda and don't "want it my way" or "to benEfit my people".

 

[vetrider]

...............................

 

[Lear70]

It's not a sense of "entitlement". I don't work there. I don't have anything to be "entitled" to. I just understand why the East pilots are angry.

It *WAS* wishing *BOTH* sides well. I sincerely hope you can come to some type of agreement. I know that I'd be angry if something similar happened WHEN I return to AirTran after my grievance is heard (it's a slam dunk, I've already won court battles over it with the Georgia State board, more will come).

I honestly see both sides of it... the West thinks they saved the East from liquidation, the East thinks they would have been fine either way and many of their F/O's will now *NEVER* see the CA's seat before retirement.

If you can reconcile those two somehow, maybe you can save your airline. Good luck to you... sincerely... and Happy Holidays!

 

[vetrider]

How do you reconcile anything with people who think their signature doesn't mean anything?

Besides, Nicolau already reconciled it.

 

[Lear70]

How do you reconcile anything with people who think their signature doesn't mean anything?

Besides, Nicolau already reconciled it.

No, he didn't.

Reconciliation requires BOTH parties agreeing to the outcome, as in "reconciling THEIR differences."

Forced reconciliation never works. Just ask our men and women who are being asked to attempt that right now in a war zone. Or the countless men and women who have fought this type of "war" before.

Reconciliation only happens with two WILLING parties who WORK TOGETHER. I hope the two groups at USAirways can...

 

[vetrider]

Well ok, thats what the JNC is for, but they won't show up. Why?

They signed documents saying they would show up, yet they won't. Why?

They are trying to use extortion to obtain a different outcome to the arbitration before this so called reconciliation you are talking about, thats not right.

 

[m80drvr]

No, he didn't.

Reconciliation requires BOTH parties agreeing to the outcome, as in "reconciling THEIR differences."

Forced reconciliation never works. Just ask our men and women who are being asked to attempt that right now in a war zone. Or the countless men and women who have fought this type of "war" before.

Reconciliation only happens with two WILLING parties who WORK TOGETHER. I hope the two groups at USAirways can...

Hey Lear


I think you have that backwards. Reconciliation is the result of negotiations. The east and the west had a chance to reconcile their differences during the negotiating phase of the merging of the lists. The east wanted DOH and nothing else. The west wanted slotting and nothing else. They reached an empass. BOTH sides agreed to BINDING ARBITRATION. Both signed an agreement that they would abide by the decision of the arbitrator. The arbitrator decided and the east didn't like the outcome. PLEASE don't paint the west pilots as "forcing" anything. The west played by the rules and the award was rendered. The east wants a "do over".


Funny thing is if you would read the transcrips from the arbitration you will see that Nicleau gave BOTH sides another chance to change their stances all the while WARNING both pilot groups that their current positions on the intergration were not going to work for him. Especially pointing out to the east the DOH WAS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. The west softened a little BUT the east went back the next day and told the arbitrator that it was DOH or nothing.


You say"Reconciliation only happens with two WILLING parties who WORK TOGETHER. " Unfortunately that time has mostlikely come and gone. The east has had many opportunities to negotiate but since their stance is still DOH or nothing why should the west waste their time in pointless negotiations.

It still baffles me that the east pilots are livid at the west pilot group. What the hell could they be mad at, the west followed the rules and rolled the dice the same as the east. And the ourcome was relative seniority. But like I said it's DOH or bust for the east. Unfortunately that will mean bust for all of us.

 

[PositiveRate]

By agreeing to binding arbitration, they pre-agreed to the results. All of these so called "reasonable" solutions being proposed right now by Kerosene and the likes should have beenproposed prior to going to arbitration. The East believed they would easily steamroll the West...they thought their case was a "slam dunk"...just like your case, thus they didn't bother with the details...after all, they were entitled to what they asked for right?

The West bears zero fault in this...we never asked for the merger, we had everything to lose at the time (and arguably that's what's happened to us), we were reasonable in negotiations, mediation and arbitration and have been tempered and civil while our counterparts have thrown the most incredulous hissy fit imaginable. Their problems are theirs and theirs alone. We're not taking anything from them...we all work for a new company yet they act as if we broke into their house and are demanding half their posessions.

Good luck with Airtran Lear. You may serve that group well in the future, but you couldn't be more wrong over what's going on here.

 

[vetrider]

M80 and positive rate just got it right, that about covers it. I'll shut up now, they've put it into words much better than I can.

 

[weasel_lips]

Good luck with Airtran Lear. You may serve that group well in the future, but you couldn't be more wrong over what's going on here.

Actually he is spot on.

You West guys cry and moan just as much or more then any east pilot I have ever spoken with.

The award means nothing if both parties can not come to an agreement. It will stay that way until this place is sold off.

I would actually be worried if I were a west pilot right now. Keep your resume up to date.

I will be leaving this place here shortly, but I still wish the East guys the best of luck. What happend is not fair, and I am proud of them for taking a stand.

 

[Lear70]

I absolutely understand what you guys are saying, both sides of the fence. Both parties have done very well here not resorting to a *lot* of mud-slinging and have put their thoughts and feelings on the table.

The West guys certainly haven't done anything wrong... other than not realizing that the outcome of Nic is not palatable nor acceptable long-term to the East and not willing to work to something more reasonable (previous discussions of upgrades by retirement by previously-scheduled seniority lists sounds pretty reasonable to me).

The East certainly bears a LOT of the onus of responsibility for digging their heels in and being greedy. That was mostly the MEC's doing, and now the line pilots are left with the brunt of the damage. Not exactly the line pilots' fault there, either.

It's a VERY emotional subject, entire CAREERS are hinging on it, and I certainly can't know all the subtleties since I'm not on property, just looking at things as a disinterested 3rd party and see a lot of what both sides are saying.

Again, good luck to all of you!

 

[TWA Dude]

I honestly see both sides of it... the West thinks they saved the East from liquidation, ...

I don't think you really understand it at all. Aside from a few blowhards (every airline has them) we AWA guys know that we didn't save the East. We fly airplanes; we don't run the airline. In his Award Nicolau clearly explains his reasoning for his decision and "saving" isn't part of it. Our position is quite simple: we followed the rules of ALPA Merger Policy and we expected the East to do the same. Just because they don't like the result or don't feel it's fair isn't justification for their behavior. Nicolau defines what's fair. That's what arbitrators do.

 

[TWA Dude]

That was mostly the MEC's doing, and now the line pilots are left with the brunt of the damage.

That's true but it begs a disturbing question: why didn't the pilots demand recalls of their reps? How is it that even you can see how poorly they performed yet the East pilots can't? This leads me to believe the rank-and-file are just as responsible for happende to them as their reps. And now they think an in-house union will fix things! What's broken won't be fixed by USAPA.

 

[Soulfly]

That's true but it begs a disturbing question: why didn't the pilots demand recalls of their reps? How is it that even you can see how poorly they performed yet the East pilots can't? This leads me to believe the rank-and-file are just as responsible for happende to them as their reps. And now they think an in-house union will fix things! What's broken won't be fixed by USAPA.

And the new USAPA reps will be the same exact ALPA reps. Minus the CLT guys. Interesting!

 

[Soulfly]

Lear, you have to look at their actions to understand their logic.

They stuck with DOH from negotiations, to meditation to binding arbitration. Which BTW is a legal document and barring any malfeasance will be held up in court.

When the decision was rendered they lost it. Now they want us to negotiate again. If their primary concern was attrition and upgrades then why was that not considered. Especially in light of Nicalou telling them point blank he was not going to rule based on DOH.
So an intelligent person must surmize that their intentions have been DOH. Period end of discussion.

And BTW many of the easties want to furlough based on DOH. So that would mean a 10 year 737 west Captain would be furloughed and an east fuloughee that was not even off probation before he was furloughed would keep his job.

Does that sound fair?