ALPA: Time to learn from this vote.

[BE90flyer]

Alright.......You union guys want it, you got it.....

A full out jumpseat war............................

Oh wait I dont work at an airline anymore. What to do?

*If I am walking through a door in front of you. I wont hold it open.

*If your car breaks down on the side of the road. No help from me!

*If you stop breathing. No CPR from me!

*If you are behind me at Mcdonalds, I will take extra long ordering!

*If we pass on the highway. I will put up my middle finger!

*If you need change for a ten to use a vending machine. Dont ask me!

*If you are sick in the hosptial. No flowers or card from me.

*I will not bless you if you sneeze.

*I will not tell you have snot hanging from your nose.

*I will not lend a hand

*I will not let you use my schoulders to cry on.

*If you are near me. I will not do on to others as I want done to me.


There take that all you union guys. Rez, PCL, Ozam, and all the other union gurus are doing more to hurt ALPA then they are to help it. Give it a rest, you cant force someone to like and accept a union.(period)

But then again this is only Flightinfo....not the real world.

 

[Soverytired]

If ALPA could just:

• Negotiate industry leading contracts (for the regionals AND the majors)
• Effectively lobby Congress to get the rest and duty time regulations changed
• Effectively lobby Congress to reflect the majority opinion of the pilots for the age 60 rule (pro or con, don't matter)
• Effectively lobby Congress for legislative relief on pension reform and a social security disbursement exception based on the unique mandatory retirement age of pilots
• Reduce overhead, then reduce dues
• Have additional non-ALPA carriers vote themselves overwhelmingly into the fold
• Have a "Swimsuit edition" of the ALPA magazine once a year

In short, produce some really obvious results for the entire group, (as opposed to saving Captain "Can't fly for szht"'s job on a regular basis), ALPA is going to do just fine.

 

[John Pennekamp]

*yawn*

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

If ALPA could just:

• Negotiate industry leading contracts (for the regionals AND the majors)

What about you? What are you going to do to help ALPA fullfill your "wishlist"

• Effectively lobby Congress to get the rest and duty time regulations changed

How much do you give to ALPA-PAC. Only 14% of ALPA members give to ALPA-PAC. IF the particaption rate was 85% I bet we could do some serious damage. Change the RLA... do you give to ALPA-PAC?

• Effectively lobby Congress to reflect the majority opinion of the pilots for the age 60 rule (pro or con, don't matter)

HA! Again.... too few pilots bother to particapte... ALPA is the gun but you gotta feed the ammo. Guess who the ammo is...

ALPA is not regulatory....or controlling... we must have consensus!!!

Effectively lobby Congress for legislative relief on pension reform and a social security disbursement exception based on the unique mandatory retirement age of pilots

Already in process..... but only 14% of ALPA pilots give to the PAC so lobbying is limited and prioritzed...

• Reduce overhead, then reduce dues

Overhead was significantky reduced already... I am begining to think that you don't pay too much attention. And this is a problem... instead of progressing on the issues.. we are regressing...trying to school you on what you should already know...

can you fly a jet effectively if your FO can't even fly instruments?

Have additional non-ALPA carriers vote themselves overwhelmingly into the fold

nice..

• Have a "Swimsuit edition" of the ALPA magazine once a year

We can have Joe Merchant as the centerfold!

In short, produce some really obvious results for the entire group, (as opposed to saving Captain "Can't fly for szht"'s job on a regular basis), ALPA is going to do just fine.

Not going to happen as long as pilots keep doing nothing..... you can have wishlists all you want... but what is needed is particaption..

 

[WalterSobchak]

[/list]Not going to happen as long as pilots keep doing nothing..... you can have wishlists all you want... but what is needed is particaption..

OK then, Rez...how about this?

If it is solely lack of participation in their union that is keeping the pilots of ALPA carriers from attaining the goals they wish to reach...how about ALPA national spend a little less time and money on trying to bring in new pilot groups (that have a history of not wanting to be unionized as it is) and more on getting their current membership excited and active in the participation.

To the guy on the outside looking in...and based strictly on the amount of comments by pilots of ALPA carriers who seem to share a sort of disdain for the job that ALPA does for thier pilot group...it really seems as though little is being done by ALPA National to really get the current membership truly involved and informed in how they can make changes for the betterment of their careers.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

OK then, Rez...how about this?

If it is solely lack of participation in their union that is keeping the pilots of ALPA carriers from attaining the goals they wish to reach...how about ALPA national spend a little less time and money on trying to bring in new pilot groups (that have a history of not wanting to be unionized as it is) and more on getting their current membership excited and active in the participation.

To the guy on the outside looking in...and based strictly on the amount of comments by pilots of ALPA carriers who seem to share a sort of disdain for the job that ALPA does for thier pilot group...it really seems as though little is being done by ALPA National to really get the current membership truly involved and informed in how they can make changes for the betterment of their careers.

Agreed! ALPA needs to clean its own house before it starts going out to SKYW and others.. if we are having trouble keeping the EAST guys, why do we think we can get SKYW.

We do have big problems... but tearing down ALPA and starting over is regression....

Member particaption is only one part of the solution... but it is the one thing that every member can control..immediately.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Agreed! ALPA needs to clean its own house before it starts going out to SKYW and others.. if we are having trouble keeping the EAST guys, why do we think we can get SKYW.

We do have big problems... but tearing down ALPA and starting over is regression....

Member particaption is only one part of the solution... but it is the one thing that every member can control..immediately.....

That depends..... Sometimes when a structure is in bad shape, it is safer, quicker, and cheaper to tear it down and build a new structure..... I think ALPA's problems are too big for a "remodel"..... It may be better to start over again.......

 

[PCL_128]

That depends..... Sometimes when a structure is in bad shape, it is safer, quicker, and cheaper to tear it down and build a new structure.

This isn't an abandoned, beat-up house, it's a labor union. Trying to tear down an entire labor union that represents over 60,000 pilots and start a new one from scratch is simply unworkable and would create a catastrophic mess. What I find ironic is that Duane, the guy you all hated, actually wanted to start an investigation into what he was going to term "internal organizing." He had someone already recruited to lead the effort to investigate ways to restructure the Association and to fix the problems that are embedded into the current structure. He had some pretty far-reaching ideas of reforms. Unfortunately, because of some back-room, shady politics at the BOD, we ended up with a beginner in the head spot, and it will probably be a very long time until meaningful reforms are considered again.

 

[JoeMerchant]

What I find ironic is that Duane, the guy you all hated, actually wanted to start an investigation into what he was going to term "internal organizing." He had someone already recruited to lead the effort to investigate ways to restructure the Association and to fix the problems that are embedded into the current structure. He had some pretty far-reaching ideas of reforms. Unfortunately, because of some back-room, shady politics at the BOD, we ended up with a beginner in the head spot, and it will probably be a very long time until meaningful reforms are considered again.

What stopped him the preceding 8 years before he was thrown out of office??...... Did he find religion as he was being led to the electric chair??......

 

[PCL_128]

What stopped him the preceding 8 years before he was thrown out of office??...... Did he find religion as he was being led to the electric chair??......

Led to the electric chair? You weren't out at the BOD, so you may not be aware, but it was pretty much assumed by everyone, including Duane, that he was going to win that election. Only some last minute back-room deals from a couple of MECs changed that. His ideas on reforms were not some campaign tool. In fact, he didn't campaign on them at all. He barely even campaigned, because again, everyone just assumed that he was going to win.

His ideas came about as a result of his frustrations during his years in elected office. He made no secret about the fact that he felt that ALPA's structure was far too compartmentalized (separate MECs with little guidance from National and little cooperation with each other). It has made ALPA at the national level very weak in guiding an overall strategy, especially dealing with pattern bargaining. It's possible that we would have seen some meaningful proposals on how to deal with these issues if Duane had been reelected, but the short-sighted fools decided to go with the new guy.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Led to the electric chair? You weren't out at the BOD, so you may not be aware, but it was pretty much assumed by everyone, including Duane, that he was going to win that election. Only some last minute back-room deals from a couple of MECs changed that. His ideas on reforms were not some campaign tool. In fact, he didn't campaign on them at all. He barely even campaigned, because again, everyone just assumed that he was going to win.

His ideas came about as a result of his frustrations during his years in elected office. He made no secret about the fact that he felt that ALPA's structure was far too compartmentalized (separate MECs with little guidance from National and little cooperation with each other). It has made ALPA at the national level very weak in guiding an overall strategy, especially dealing with pattern bargaining. It's possible that we would have seen some meaningful proposals on how to deal with these issues if Duane had been reelected, but the short-sighted fools decided to go with the new guy.

I agree with the problems listed..... If he actually believed that, then I agree with him..... He had 8 years to change things and he didn't.....

It's like the RBS commercials...... "Less talk and more action".......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWt5xt72DRE&feature=related

 

[PCL_128]

He had 8 years to change things and he didn't.....

It's like the RBS commercials...... "Less talk and more action".......

Many issues didn't become quite so clear until after 9/11 when the downward slide started. Remember, at the beginning of his first term, Duane presided over the negotiations and signing of the two most expensive pilot contracts in the profession's history. We also had several record-setting regional contracts signed concurrently. At the time, it didn't seem like we had that many problems. Things were moving ahead nicely. There were certainly issues, but nothing glaring. The downturn after 9/11 is what really highlighted the problems.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Many issues didn't become quite so clear until after 9/11 when the downward slide started. Remember, at the beginning of his first term, Duane presided over the negotiations and signing of the two most expensive pilot contracts in the profession's history. We also had several record-setting regional contracts signed concurrently. At the time, it didn't seem like we had that many problems. Things were moving ahead nicely. There were certainly issues, but nothing glaring. The downturn after 9/11 is what really highlighted the problems.

1. The downward slide started before 911..... It started with the Deregulation Act of 1978.... It continued with the poor way ALPA reacted to this change and the subsequent need to replace "mainline" airplanes with Beech 99s and Metros....

2. This problem was noted by many long before 911....The first Scope committee was in 1995. More scope reports were filed in 1996, 1997, and 2001 before 911.... Canada went through this problem long before 911..... RJDC was formed before 911...At the end of this post are some links to things that indicated we had a problem..... All before 911.....

3. For arguments sake, lets say it took 911 to wake ALPA and Duane up...... What happened in the 5 years after 911 before Duane was tossed out?


http://www.rjdefense.com/scprpts.doc
http://www.rjdefense.com/aonresp.pdf
http://www.rjdefense.com/aonuflp.pdf
http://www.rjdefense.com/petition.pdf
http://www.rjdefense.com/bsicint.doc

 

[PCL_128]

1. The downward slide started before 911..... It started with the Deregulation Act of 1978.... It continued with the poor way ALPA reacted to this change and the subsequent need to replace "mainline" airplanes with Beech 99s and Metros....

Yes, problems started with deregulation, but as I said, the two most expensive pilot contracts in history were singed during the first couple of years of Duane's administration. Hardly an appreciable or noticeable slide. The glaring problems became apparent during the 9/11 aftermath.

2. This problem was noted by many long before 911....The first Scope committee was in 1995. More scope reports were filed in 1996, 1997, and 2001 before 911.... Canada went through this problem long before 911..... RJDC was formed before 911...At the end of this post are some links to things that indicated we had a problem..... All before 911.....

When times are good (good contracts being signed, big industry profits, lots of hiring, etc...), people don't tend to focus on the problems. They tend to fall by the wayside and not get much attention. That's simply human nature, and it's the nature of politics. Look to the booming 90s for an example of this outside of ALPA. During the 90s, the economy was booming and the stock market was reaching new highs. Despite this, the looming problems with social security, medicare, and other programs were already apparent to anyone looking for them, but virtually no one was paying attention because they were too busy counting their profits from their Pets.com stock. Not until a rough patch comes along do people realize that the problems are there. Again, it's just human nature.

3. For arguments sake, lets say it took 911 to wake ALPA and Duane up...... What happened in the 5 years after 911 before Duane was tossed out?

I won't speak for Duane, but I'll speak to the general sense that many of us have had about problems within the Association. The "wake-up" didn't happen for many people with the 9/11 event, it happened as a result of the events that took place during the following years. Pensions didn't disappear on 9/12. Pilots didn't take 40% paycuts on 9/12. The right to strike in bankruptcy wasn't lost on 9/12. These things took years to develop. People are generally slow to acknowledge deficiencies. It's a process, not an instantaneous event.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Sounds like we have allot of work to do.... I am ready....

Joe Merchant.... as the hull fills with water you want to play the blame game... the rest of us want to bail, repair the hull and continue on with our careers.