Anti union pilots.....I don't get it.

[N2264J]

Re: Anti union pilots...I don't get it

PCL 128 was an ALPA status rep at Pinnacle who abandoned his pilot group in the middle of contract negotiations to take a job at a non ALPA carrier.

In my opinion, he has no standing to condemn anyone who rejects ALPA for any reason, whatsoever.

Coming from someone who should be expelled from the Association because of your RJDC activities, that doesn't exactly mean a lot.

More empty threats. You guys have been talking Article 8 against the RJDC members for the last seven years. So far, nothing.

Since you're no longer an ALPA member, I guess you would have a hard time starting the process now. Maybe you could phone it in. But in the past seven years, you've had plenty of opportunities as an MEC member but didn't. Like so much of what you say, you have no credibility.

You understand, don't you, that Colgan and Skywest pilots can actually read everything you write on here?

 

[JPAustin]

It isn't a black-or-white choice between capitalism and communism. This country doesn't have a pure capitalistic system. What do you think anti-trust laws are for? There has to be balance to keep capitalism in check. If you allow it to run amok, then everyone but the extremely powerful gets fu*&ed, much like the communist systems that you refer to. Pure communism and pure capitalism end in the same result: the little people get screwed, and the powerful get richer and more powerful. What works for everyone is a system of capitalism with checks and balances. Unions, anti-trust laws, etc... provide that balance.

You are onto a good point and are alluding to what Karl Marx stated in his Communist Manifesto. The first step to the utopian society (pure communism) is to build capitalism up until overproduction and it destroys itself, thus tumbling the money down to everyone from the rich and creating everyone equal. At that point, everyone is producing what they want and essentially sharing. That works great if human nature wasn't powered by self preservation. There will always be a villain of sorts looking for absolute power, which is the reason why communism never quite worked and Stalin had absolute power (among many communist leaders of yore and present).

Ergo, capitalism needs checks and balances to a degree and that is why monopolies are kept in check so as to maintain as best a free market as possible. Of course, true Keynesian free market capitalism is but a dream, but we can come close and the fed will always have maintain that razor's edge of control for optimum returns in the market.

 

[BE90flyer]

Slavery and child labor are good for business. Are you suggesting those should be brought back into action, to increase shareholder value?

Environmental regulation stifles business. Do you really want to return Lake Erie to its "prime" of the 60's and 70's? One need only look at the skies of Shenzhen to see the result.

Slavery, child labor and environmental issues are a lot different then pilots demanding more money.

Don’t get me wrong, I am all for making more money. But ALPA exists to keep ALPA alive, not for pilots. People are happy at SkyWest, why should they bring in a group who represents thousands of unhappy miserable people? Certainly not based off the theory that if you don’t join us the company will eventually screw you.

The attitude of "Us versus THEM" mentality will get you no where.

 

[CA1900]

Slavery, child labor and environmental issues are a lot different then pilots demanding more money.

Agreed. But my point was specifically aimed at your reaction to his suggestion that "capitalism run amok" was scary. Pure capitalism can be a hazard to society, just as pure socialism is. Letting businesses do anything and everything (as in my example above) that increases the value of their company is not a good thing for society as a whole.


There's a balance to be found. Where it lies is why we have partisan politics.

 

[PCL_128]

How is a closed shop democratic?
Yes,I realize that this a precondition of employment.
Second point, I agree.

We don't have any true closed shops in this industry. What ALPA usually has is an agency shop, which means that membership isn't required, but paying contract maintenance fees is required of non-members. Those fees are usually about half a percent less than the full dues rate.

 

[PCL_128]

Would you rather work for Mesa than Skywest?

Yep. Without a doubt. As bad as Mesa is, at least there is union protection from wrongful terminations and other issues.

 

[PCL_128]

I never said Air Tran wasn't a Union carrier, I said it was a NON ALPA carrier.
You in previous posts have stated that thier union is not as good as ALPA. So why would you risk your career with anything less than ALPA?

I don't consider it a career risk, because we do have representation. If an AirTran pilot is wrongfully terminated, then he has access to the grievance process to get his job back and be made financially whole. It certainly isn't as good as ALPA, because we don't have the resources that ALPA has, but it is a union with union protections. That's the important thing.

You've resorted to a lot of name calling lately.

Yeah, I've let the Skywest loss get to me a little bit too much. It really pissed me off, just like it did Pennekamp. My apologies for the name calling.

 

[PCL_128]

More empty threats. You guys have been talking Article 8 against the RJDC members for the last seven years. So far, nothing.

Since you're no longer an ALPA member, I guess you would have a hard time starting the process now. Maybe you could phone it in. But in the past seven years, you've had plenty of opportunities as an MEC member but didn't. Like so much of what you say, you have no credibility.

There's no threat. I don't think anyone has every said that they were actually going to do it. I simply said that that's what should be done. Because of various political realities, it will never happen.

 

[waveflyer]

I've supported unions my entire career- But our system does beg the question:

Why can't we have a CBA and still negotiate as individuals in accordance with it? - very different careers- but athletes and hollywood all do this. any others?

Why are we so adamant that we stay with ONE company for our entire careers OR start over? Why does seniority have to govern EVERYTHING? We set it up that way.... Remind me why we all think it works so well.

 

[A350]

After reading all these posts....I can only come to one conclusion....

All you ALPA pushers are convinced of its superiority and that ALPA is a success. I can only imagine what you would consider a failure.

Rez, do sound like its OK for someone who has paid dues for 20 years to be out on the street because he didn't attend every union/mec meeting during his career...that must make him an apathetic pilot who doesn't deserve to wear a uniform?

PCL: Why is it that only ALPA/union carriers can have a checks and balances system? The only reason ALPA ever gets a terminated pilot their job back is when the company decides to clear up all the grievances during contract signing time.....and by then the damage to the pilots finances, credit, and life are permanent, no matter whether there is pay loss or not.

If ALPA was such a success, I would still have a pension and wouldn't have had to start over at another carrier while my mainline carrier hired over 1500 new union pilots.

And Rez....I went to the meetings and tried to be a part of the process. They always had what they were going to do figured out long before the gavel went down.

A350

 

[DX Rick]

Yep. Without a doubt. As bad as Mesa is, at least there is union protection from wrongful terminations and other issues.

Now I have every BS lie you have ever spewed.
MAG ALPA is the worst in the country. Pilots wrongfuly terminated( I know two personally, and they had no problems getting 121 job immediately), contract abused and disregarded and you would go work there my butt. They have a stack of grievances higher than the Sears Tower.
There is a reason that place has the highest turn over rate, and it's because of the contract AH help create. They're so deep in it right now they'll never be able to recover.

Knowing your character of paying your way through GIA for a job at Pinnacle, you would have paid a little extra cash for a job at SkyWest.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Why can't we have a CBA and still negotiate as individuals in accordance with it? - very different careers- but athletes and hollywood all do this. any others?

Ever heard of CESTA?

Why are we so adamant that we stay with ONE company for our entire careers OR start over? Why does seniority have to govern EVERYTHING? We set it up that way.... Remind me why we all think it works so well.

Until a better idea comes along we are stuck with it...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

All you ALPA pushers are convinced of its superiority and that ALPA is a success. I can only imagine what you would consider a failure.

WRONG! (again).. ALPA isn't all things. ALPA is not holy and great.. ALPA is just an organization of volunteers.... but it is all we got! Until you got a better organization, I am going to work with the one I got. I know we got problems, but I am not going to reject the entire org. I am willing to work on the problems and continue to use what works well.

This BULLSH*T you guys try and run about how jacked up ALPA is and how you are going to boycott it until ALPA does things YOUR way is amatuer hour. It is a cop out. It is for the weak. It is UNprofessional. Your wife deserves better, your KIDS deserve better, the public deserves better and even the company deserves an objective safety voice now and again to say..NO.

Rez, do sound like its OK for someone who has paid dues for 20 years to be out on the street because he didn't attend every union/mec meeting during his career...that must make him an apathetic pilot who doesn't deserve to wear a uniform?

Who cares about paying dues! We all pay dues.. we all pay taxes.. I don't run around looking for repsect from fellow citizens because I pay taxes just like they do...

If one does get informed then there is a chance that they have a better understanding of what and why things are going on...

Uninformed leads to ignorance leads to conspiracy. Believe me there are plnty of guys with wild theories out there...

If ALPA was such a success, I would still have a pension and wouldn't have had to start over at another carrier while my mainline carrier hired over 1500 new union pilots.

This.....again!!! If you had no union the damage would be worse! And your fellow pilots voted on the changes... look in the crewroom!!

And Rez....I went to the meetings and tried to be a part of the process. They always had what they were going to do figured out long before the gavel went down.

Part TWO of getting involved.... do you think showing up to a meeting and saying... "I think we should do it my way" is going to get it done your way?

Why should we do it your way when another guy wants it done his way... What if another guy took the time to research the problem, understood the opposition and came up with a pragmatic solution..

Not only do you have to go to the meetings you have to be poltically savvy. Nobody cares about airline pilots except airline pilots....

Most Air Line Pilots are Republicans but when it comes to thier careers they act like welfare recipients...

 

[shamrock]

Some of you are confusing those who are "anti-ALPA" with being "anti-union".....

Just as you confuse ALPA supporters with lemmings.

 

[capt. megadeth]

"Capitalism run amok is one of the scariest notions that I can imagine"

It took a while but it finally came out. Capitalism it what drives our country. Businesses exist to make money, not employ you.

Maybe we should take from the rich and give to the poor. Oh wait, we already do that with our current tax system. I got news for you Robinhood, there are still a few places you can go and enjoy you communist life style. Dont let me stop you.

Capitalism is one thing. Greed is another. I took his "capitalism run amok" to = what is going on today. Greed seems to be what is driving this country these days. The middle class is disappearing....meaning you and I.

I'm not for the communist lifestyle but I'm also not for the extinction of the middle class either which is what is going on.

 

[PCL_128]

Capitalism is one thing. Greed is another. I took his "capitalism run amok" to = what is going on today. Greed seems to be what is driving this country these days. The middle class is disappearing....meaning you and I.

I'm not for the communist lifestyle but I'm also not for the extinction of the middle class either which is what is going on.

Exactly.

 

[PCL_128]

PCL: Why is it that only ALPA/union carriers can have a checks and balances system?

Without a union, who provides the checks and balances? The government? Don't make me laugh. As Rez always says, only pilots care about pilot issues. Without a union of fellow pilots providing a system of checks and balances, then management is free to run their corporation as a complete totalitarian regime. I prefer democracy. I want a say in my career. Handing over my fate to a bunch of slimy, greedy managers doesn't give me a warm and fuzzy feeling.

The only reason ALPA ever gets a terminated pilot their job back is when the company decides to clear up all the grievances during contract signing time.....and by then the damage to the pilots finances, credit, and life are permanent, no matter whether there is pay loss or not.

Sounds like you need to do some more research. ALPA gets pilots their jobs back all the time, completely independent of contract negotiations. During my time at Pinnacle as a rep, I can remember of 4 cases just off of the top of my head of ALPA getting terminated pilots back to work, all without a new contract. Two were settled before arbitration, and two were awarded their jobs back by an arbitrator. There were plenty more cases, but I can't remember them off of the top of my head. It happens all the time. The process works. And that doesn't even count the times that management planned to terminate a pilot, and were convinced not to by myself or another rep before the disciplinary meeting. I've got pages and pages of notes on disciplinary meetings where something like that took place. You never hear of these things as a rank-and-file pilot, but it's happening behind the scenes all the time.

 

[Gandalf]

Mega:

You may not agree, but you are looking at this from a perspective most of us are not.....

The cargo carriers, (I agree have management that is as greedy as the next), are a completely different ball game than the passenger carriers. And of the cargo carriers, UPS isn't ALPA. FedEx and others are. Of the cargo carriers, UPS and FedEx are the only "success" stories and SWA and to a lesser extent AMR are the passenger "success" stories.

FedEx and UPS are two companies who basically split the cargo in this country and abroad. There are niche players who fill voids, but you are speaking from a bullypulpit most of us wish we could.

SWA and AMR....SWA speaks for itself and AMR, for all the "battles" they are fighting still have a profitable carrier with a pension. The other passenger carriers are profitable now, but will never have the power to make money like UPS and FedEx until there is consolidation down to 3 or 4 carriers in the mainline US with large international ops.

Now that you have read my rant....IMO, there is no way you can compare what has happened where you are with where the SKYW pilots are or for that matter any passenger carrier.

If being part of the team is so great, why isn't UPS ALPA? I will bet the first guy who stands up in SDF and screams that ALPA is the way to go leaves with a few bruises and a limp.

ALPA has failed to represent all pilots to the betterment of all. They have successes from time to time, but their successes generally benefit one segment of their representation and hurt another. ALPA cannot represent competing interests and win. Anyone who has lived through 20 years of ALPA and has 4 uniforms in their closet is speaking from a place you will never be.

Instead of criticizing those less fortunate than you, perhaps thanking your lucky stars you aren't where they are or have been would be in order.

A350

A350: Thank you for bringing up the crux of the problem. Here is the exact problem that we here at Skywest have. The non-alpa airlines/carriers that you have listed have one little tiny, tiny, tiny thing going for them that we don't.

THEY HAVE A UNION.

All of you out their putting down airline unions, READ A350'S POST CAREFULLY. THREE OF THE MOST SUCESSFULL AIRLINES/CARGO COMPANIES THAT OPERATE TODAY ARE UNIONIZED. THAT WOULD BE SWA, AND UPS.
THE OTHER SMALL COMPANY, IS FEDEX, OH AND THEIR ALPA.

QUESTION: If FEDEX's ALPA was so bad then are you saying that their pilots are so stupid that they wouldn't try to get rid of them?

There is no Regional Airline Pilots Association.

That being said - THERE IS NO SKYWEST PILOTS UNION. SAPA IS NOT A UNION. THEY HAVE NO, I REPEAT NO BARGAINING POWER WHATSOEVER. THEY CAN HAVE ALL THE ELECTIONS, MEETINGS, PROPOSALS THEY WANT. THEY GO TO MANAGEMENT TIME, AFTER TIME, AFTER TIME, AFTER TIME, AFTER TIME, AFTER TIME, AFTER TIME ASKING FOR THE SAME, SAME, SAME, SAME, SAME, SAME, SAME, SAME THINGS.

WHAT IS SAPA TOLD.........NO, NO, NO, NO, NO

WHAT IS SAPA'S RESPONSE......OK, OK, OK, OK, OK

Management's job is to run a business to make a profit. That's it. Black and White. Plain and Simple. Whatever the distractions of whatever job or career you are involved in, whatever duties the employees must take on, whatever the risks that the employees take on a daily basis to do their jobs, doesn't matter to them. Run it to make a profit.

Why do think it is necessary for the government to have so many rules governing employers? EPA, Disability Act, Equal Employment Opportunity, OSHA, etc., etc.

Without oversight, management of companies would sell their grandmothers soul if it made them one penny of profit. It is the function of management. It is capitalism.

The DUTY and RESPONSIBILTY of all of us is to make sure that managements don't get away with these things. Otherwise they WILL polute the air and water, they WILL discriminate, they WILL NOT provide for safety of their employees. It happens all the time and it will continue to happen. But thankfully we have some protections in place if these things do occur.

Why? Are all managers and anyone involved in management evil? No, again - THAT IS THEIR FUNCTION. MAKE A PROFIT FOR THE SHAREHOLDERS. THAT'S IT.

So, back to the airlines. In order to provide protection for the airline pilot we have unions. Yes, there are some issues, but nonetheless we are all better off having the protections in place.

And this is where everyone gets on their "me" pulpit and whines about they haven't protected me from x, y, and z. Yes, yes, yes.

I must have missed the day in school where they said everything in life is guaranteed. That ALL career choices will reward you with a retirement full of 18 holes, endless alcohol, money, and sex.

That being said, it is wrong that the pensions have been stripped and other things that have happened are wrong. However, the way to change that is to unify.

Remember, managements are driving the erosion of our career, not the unions. It is the managements, with their excess, their greed, their mismanagement that has cost this industry. Do you really think that the unions woke up one fine day and called management and said you know what....to pay for that $700 million dollar bonus you took, why don't you tank the pensions? No, thats management.

Yes, the fact that these things have been allowed to happen is awful, but dumping our protective system no matter how screwed up it is, is not the way to go. The way to fix things is within the system. Not to get rid of it. To get rid of the protections would let managements have even more freedom to devastate the careers of all of us. They win.

Remember: Management will DO ANYTHING for a profit.

It is easy to sit on the sidelines and play armchair quarterback when you have the protection of a union, no matter how crappy that union is right now.

So, this is the impossible situation that we at Skywest find ourselves in.

WE HAVE TRIED TO GET OUR OWN UNION! It didn't work.

We have tried to get ALPA. It hasn't worked.

We haven't tried other unions, but seriously. What union is going to try now? And, seriously what union would our pilot group accept?

So, we trudge along, getting closer and closer to the bottom of this regional "game". Look out Below!

Accepting that this industry will change, that in time our management makeup will change and we will be left with no protection.

We hope for the best, fear the worst. That's all we can do. Because that is all we have allowed ourselves to do, nothing more. The absolute definition of apathy.

 

[waveflyer]

Rez- CESTA? no i haven't.

Megadeath- I AGREE completely- my issue is that pilots are frustrated b/c their advancement is based too much on luck and the efforts of a management that may or may not have the same objectives as you. Think about it- especially at the regional level- what is the thing that determines your happiness and sense of security the most--- GROWTH and movement- But being union or not union does not make you the co-managers of your airline though. If you don't have the ability to make changes as the industry does-- that will get frustrating(!)

Companies fail- they downsize-- then others come in and fill the gap. The demand for aviation has grown- yet pilots have not reaped the reward for that b/c our seniority system doesn't allow us to make changes.

The entire industry is much MUCH more volatile since deregulation but we've refused to change.

Here's one good idea to start. Stop making our career's so END-loaded. Except for senior captains- we're all chasing carrots. If we evened out pay in our career- got rid of 1st and 2nd year pay- pilots could make moves a bit more easily and that would put more negotiating power back in our hands.

btw- Mega-- do you know the history behind UPS one payrate for all airplanes. I really like it for the same reasons as above (as long as you don't lose out on the concept of bigger a/c = bigger compensation- but let the whole pilot group benefit, not just those flying it.) But i don't know how it came to be there.

 

[DX Rick]

ALPA gets pilots their jobs back all the time.

Again, in you're own little dream World.
I know of 2 who lost thier jobs and ALPA never got thier jobs back.
Both at Mesa, and both snagged 121 jobs immediately.
One of them called a "A Lister" a scab, and ALPA MAG coulnd't even stand up for him. It was AH who threw him under the bus.

So before you say "ALPA gets pilots jobs back ALL the time" you better say "ALPA gets thier jobs back SOME of the time".

I'm not against ALPA, I just don't live in the little world that you do, thinking they can do no wrong.