Skybus

[HA25]

Virgin America is paying thier pilots a lot better than Skybus and flying the same aircraft right?

no... it's not. You as a WN guy should understand that hourly rate and pay aren't the same.. this isn't some 70 hour guarantee job.. they pay a base rate of $68 and change per hour but the typical line (15 working days) credits 100 or more.. as you get senior, the lines get better, and vice verse... so for a new hire, it's not far off that you're number 75 out of 1200 and you're flying 13-15 days a month with higher pay credit.

pilots being the greedy bastards we are (nothing wrong with that btw), as the company makes a profit, they will share in it.. one way or the other. Just look back at Value Jet pay in the early days, or Jet Blue.. for that matter Southwest.. WHO ever paid industry standard wages as a start up?

Common guys... quit the hate, and do the "Christian" thing and wish people well.. it's a breath of fresh air.

 

[PCL_128]

btw.. PCL.. I remember when as a captain at ASA I used to look down on Value Jet, or Crispy Critter as we used to later call it as a lateral move, and a bottom feeder outfit.. filled with scabs and under thread of being purchased by TWA..

Who's laughing now?

Get it?

Yes, and I have little respect for the guys who came to work here when the pay was horrendous. They sold out their fellow pilots at the other airlines who were trying to hold up the bar, and part of the result of that is the 40-50% concessions that have happened over the past few years. If it weren't for the LCCs that had substandard pay prior to 9/11, then the paycuts never would have been anywhere near what they turned out to be. But because of JetBlue, SWA, Frontier, and AirTran rates back then, managements at the legacies made those payrates a target and the courts were happy to oblige in bankruptcy. Now, Skybus is the next generation of airline that's going to sell us all out and bring us down again when management sets its sights on those rates next. And you want to be a willing participant. Unbelievable.

 

[PCL_128]

wish people well.. it's a breath of fresh air.

No it's not. It's a mouthful of dirt because you've stuck your head in the sand to try to justify this in your own mind. You know as well as we do that Skybus is bringing down the profession.

 

[GuppyWN]

I'm gonna catch crap for this but if I was out of work and looking I'd give it a go to keep my family fed.

Most of the people throwing crap at these guys are working for airlines that have been in business pushing 80 years. SOMEBODY blazed the trail for them.

Gup

 

[Captzaahlie]

Virgin America is paying thier pilots a lot better than Skybus and flying the same aircraft right?

Don't ask me how or why but I got this sneaking suspicion that Virgin America and SkyBus are somehow in bed together. ......... SkyBus is leasing a few of VA's aircraft but there maybe more to it. Just a hunch.

 

[Captzaahlie]

I'm gonna catch crap for this but if I was out of work and looking I'd give it a go to keep my family fed.

Most of the people throwing crap at these guys are working for airlines that have been in business pushing 80 years. SOMEBODY blazed the trail for them.

Gup

Nicely put Gup!

 

[HA25]

Yes, and I have little respect for the guys who came to work here when the pay was horrendous. They sold out their fellow pilots at the other airlines who were trying to hold up the bar, and part of the result of that is the 40-50% concessions that have happened over the past few years. If it weren't for the LCCs that had substandard pay prior to 9/11, then the paycuts never would have been anywhere near what they turned out to be. But because of JetBlue, SWA, Frontier, and AirTran rates back then, managements at the legacies made those payrates a target and the courts were happy to oblige in bankruptcy. Now, Skybus is the next generation of airline that's going to sell us all out and bring us down again when management sets its sights on those rates next. And you want to be a willing participant. Unbelievable.

here we agree... but what the ******************** would you have me do??? Impale my self on a sword for the "profession"??? What the ******************** has this profession done for me? I spent 10 years doing the right thing, and finally got my dream job at the largest airline in the world, only to have it slammed shut for years... so what the hell am I suppose to do now, eat up my cash reserves that I've earned due to hard work and wise investments while I wait for UAL and others to grab their balls and tell their greedy managers that are paying themselves multi-million dollar bonuses that "YOU EITHEP PAY UP, OR WE'LL SHUT THIS ********************IN AIRLINE DOWN!"

Time to look after myself now bud.. sorry, done with the brotherhood bull********************.. Are you prepared for a single seniority list? I am, but what do I matter, right?

 

[PCL_128]

here we agree... but what the ******************** would you have me do??? Impale my self on a sword for the "profession"???

I hardly consider working at Gemini and waiting for your AMR recall to be "impaling yourself on a sword." You seem to want something for nothing. You want instant seniority at a growing company and instant riches from stock options. I'm sorry that your career hasn't gone as smoothly as you would have liked. That's just life, however, and you shoudn't sell out because of it. You may not be in the left seat making the "big bucks" at a major right now, but at least you still have some dignity and self-respect. Do you really want to be like the GoJet pilots that turn their IDs around when they go out in the terminal? Do you want to be the guy that has to wonder if the Captain on the flight you're trying to jumpseat on feels the same way about Skybus as I and many others do? If so, then take that dive and forget your dignity, but stop trying to convince the rest of us that it's an ok thing to do. We ain't buying it, and 20 more pages of talk about stock options isn't going to change that.

 

[HA25]

at the rate AMR is recalling, I'll be over 40 at an airline with a 12 year upgrade when I get the call.. this is an absolute fall back, and not my plan.. I need to make up for lost time. I don't expect you to understand my needs.. just accept that they're not yours. I don't really care what others think... I know from friends in pilot recruitment at American that Skybus isn't seen the way you see it among the rank and file.. this forum is going to have the statistical outliers like your self come on and call everyone a scab.. that's a given, but the reality is that the other 95% of pilots that have never heard of FI.com couldn't care less, and completely understand career choices that some HAVE to make.. Scabs are one thing.. GoJets is one thing.. Skybus is no different now than JetBlue was in 2001.. TRUST me, I am old enough to know that to be a fact..

 

[PCL_128]

at the rate AMR is recalling, I'll be over 40 at an airline with a 12 year upgrade when I get the call..

With retirements coming, upgrade won't be 12 years at AMR for long. And 40 isn't really that old. You've still got 20-25 years left in this business.

I know from friends in pilot recruitment at American that Skybus isn't seen the way you see it among the rank and file.

All I know is that I've flown with 3 Captains in the last couple of months that have made some pretty negative comments, one about denying jumpseaters, about Skybus pilots when we saw their planes in Richmond. These weren't the typical hot-head FI posters, either. These were your average everyday line Captains that have to ask me what my anti-GoJet sticker on my flight bag is all about. Word is spreading fast about Skybus, and lots of guys aren't happy.

 

[HA25]

This is classic.. Airtran captains now calling Skybus the same thing that they were themselves being called by DAL and others only a few years ago.

This alone solidifies my resolve.. this profession is all about "what's mine" but peoples memories are short, and they forget where they came from.

 

[ualdriver]

You are kidding us with that question right?

If you can spell economics you might be able to piece it together.....

No, the two of you "experts" need to piece that together for me. Show me where taxpayer money was used to bail out UAL. Now, if your argument that bond and stock INVESTORS in UAL lost money, then I would agree. That's the risk one takes as an investor in anything- the risk of default. Taxpayers with no stake in UAL? Nope, sorry. Not yet, if ever.

 

[HA25]

No, the two of you "experts" need to piece that together for me. Show me where taxpayer money was used to bail out UAL. Now, if your argument that bond and stock INVESTORS in UAL lost money, then I would agree. That's the risk one takes as an investor in anything- the risk of default. Taxpayers with no stake in UAL? Nope, sorry. Not yet, if ever.

First off, Are you aware of the loans and grands that UAL got after 9/11? Who do you think paid for them? And what are they worth now?

Secondly, after a Ch 11 filing, a corporation (unlike a private individual) is resolved of any taxes owed to the Federal Government.. do you know how much UAL owed? I don't but I can tell you it wasn't a small amount.

 

[BSkin]

I'm gonna catch crap for this but if I was out of work and looking I'd give it a go to keep my family fed.

Most of the people throwing crap at these guys are working for airlines that have been in business pushing 80 years. SOMEBODY blazed the trail for them.

Gup

Won't give you crap, just a thought. You would sacrifice for the family for a short term, knowing that your move may screw you for the rest of your career? Go to work for a company that has no union, $hitty pay, lose respect of your peers, etc. I could've stayed with my old company and be making just about the same as an Airbus CA at Skybus as a CA on the 1900. That company was non-union and, well, won't go into it. Just hope for those that have gone there that the airline survives because that on your resume is not going far!

 

[PCL_128]

First off, Are you aware of the loans and grands that UAL got after 9/11? Who do you think paid for them? And what are they worth now?

You're completely ignorant about what you're talking about. The ATSB denied UAL's loan requests. Despite the fact that UAL lost two airplanes and many great employees on that horrible day, the scumbag Bush administration engineered a corrupt system that denied them their loan requests. Get your facts straight.

 

[HA25]

You're completely ignorant about what you're talking about. The ATSB denied UAL's loan requests. Despite the fact that UAL lost two airplanes and many great employees on that horrible day, the scumbag Bush administration engineered a corrupt system that denied them their loan requests. Get your facts straight.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39335

it's all in the intent, and UAL is but one of many that took money.. I only used them as an example. All evaded taxes after BK however.

 

[HA25]

Won't give you crap, just a thought. You would sacrifice for the family for a short term, knowing that your move may screw you for the rest of your career? Go to work for a company that has no union, $hitty pay, lose respect of your peers, etc. I could've stayed with my old company and be making just about the same as an Airbus CA at Skybus as a CA on the 1900. That company was non-union and, well, won't go into it. Just hope for those that have gone there that the airline survives because that on your resume is not going far!

by the same tolken, if Skybus maks money, and their pilots eventually have a union and better pay that AirTran, what should Skybus pilots think?

cuts both ways..

btw... when was the union voted onto the property at AirTran? What about those guys hired before it, are they scabs (Besides the obvious ones that is)?

 

[ualdriver]

First of all, I'm annoyed because a stupid pop-up ad just dumped everything I typed after I wasted 20 minutes running over some 10-K filings from 2002 and 2003 which confirmed my suspicions.

Second, then PCL128 steals my thunder

Third, the link you quoted was concerning an ATSB loan that we didn't get.

Fourth..........

First off, Are you aware of the loans and grands that UAL got after 9/11? Who do you think paid for them? And what are they worth now?

We received a grant. No loans. So did every other airline out there. The Feds thought it would be better to help the airlines out or face almost their entire airline industry in bankruptcy.


Secondly, after a Ch 11 filing, a corporation (unlike a private individual) is resolved of any taxes owed to the Federal Government.. do you know how much UAL owed? I don't but I can tell you it wasn't a small amount.

Yes, I can tell you how much we owed the federal government at that time. Zero. Nada. Zilch. We had tax carry-forwards due to the substantial losses we endured after 9/11. It's in our March '03 10-K filing/annual report. In fact, in the narrative it states that it will take many years of profits to even realize the tax advantages of those carry-forwards. In fact, I'm almost certain we're still burning through them.

Fifth, the original statement I contested was the fact that you stated we wiped out most of our debt with the help of the taxpayer, and that is utterly untrue. We wiped most of our debt by screwing over bond holders and share holders, who assume risk when they make such an investment. Unfortunately, they were on the wrong side of that deal.

 

[HA25]

Fifth, the original statement I contested was the fact that you stated we wiped out most of our debt with the help of the taxpayer, and that is utterly untrue. We wiped most of our debt by screwing over bond holders and share holders, who assume risk when they make such an investment. Unfortunately, they were on the wrong side of that deal.

ok, what ever makes you feel good.

here, lets see if ALPA agrees with you..

http://blog.aflcio.org/2007/09/07/corporate-bankruptcy-laws-unfair-need-to-be-overhauled/

 

[HA25]

PCL, answer me this one question.. just one.

How is what Skybus does.. Fly CMH to where ever.. any different in terms of undercutting wages than AirTran flying from ATL to anywhere where DAL also has a hub and has to compete with your lower wages, forcing them to drop theirs..

In other words, how does Skybus with it's sliver of a market in a non-hub airport do more harm, than big old AirTran does to DAL? Why should any member of DALPA not think the scum of the earth of you?