AirTran Recall Results

[twepilot]

Good post 73av8r...But, there are still those out there that think that alpa is the miracle cure.

RV

 

[PCL_128]

you might want to wait until the results of that lawsuit come out as some TWA folks thinks dues will be increased to cover the judgment.

ALPA has $87 million in the Major Contingency Fund (MCF). If the TWA pilots are able to convince some moronic judge that they deserve some money (highly unlikely), then the MCF will easily cover the payout without any need to raise dues. I was actually a supporter of raising dues when I was a rep to increase the funds in the OCF, but Captain Beebe was steadfastly opposed and said that he couldn't foresee any circumstances that would require a raising of the dues. Captain Beebe still has over 3 years left on this term, and I doubt you'll see dues raised at all during that time.

 

[PCL_128]

Good post 73av8r...But, there are still those out there that think that alpa is the miracle cure.

Nobody thinks ALPA is a "miracle cure." However, it's a hell of a lot better than what we have now, and it has resources that we won't be able to amass in 100 years as an independent union. Trying to go it alone when we have the resources of a 76 year old union with 60,000 members available is ridiculous.

 

[jneely]

why bring alpa in when they will take your money for consulting. like i have said in the past alpa will put us out of business if they think they can make more money in the long run. no to alpa!

 

[Kharma Police]

why bring alpa in when they will take your money for consulting. like i have said in the past alpa will put us out of business if they think they can make more money in the long run. no to alpa!

Guess what, they are already taking our money for consulting. Some of the services that the NPA has used from ALPA for our T.A.(s) would be provided.

 

[jneely]

Guess what, they are already taking our money for consulting. Some of the services that the NPA has used from ALPA for our T.A.(s) would be provided.

my point exactly. they did a great job helping our union without a hidden agenda. imagine how it would be with one.

 

[PCL_128]

my point exactly. they did a great job helping our union without a hidden agenda. imagine how it would be with one.

ALPA only provides the NPA with limited services. The full slate of ALPA attorneys, actuaries, accountants, communications specialists, etc... are not available simply through a services contract like the NPA has. ALPA has to provide the bulk of its resources to its member pilot groups. They are able to provide some assistance through services contracts, but it's quite limited. At Pinnacle, all it took was a quick phone call to Herndon and we had the ALPA scope specialist attorney on his way to Memphis to help write scope language. The NPA can't do that. The NPA depends on a single, albeit extremely intelligent and talented, former ALPA attorney that they have contracted as a consultant. The level of resources is simply without compare.

As for the hidden agenda you refer to, ALPA would have absolutely zero vested interest in harming one of the pilot groups that provides them with millions in dues revenue. ALPA's goal would be for both AirTran and Delta to do well so that they could pattern bargain off of one another. These "hidden agendas" and conspiracy theories are fantasy.

 

[Kharma Police]

my point exactly. they did a great job helping our union without a hidden agenda. imagine how it would be with one.

Have you flown with an ALPA airline, TWA maybe?

 

[jneely]

Have you flown with an ALPA airline, TWA maybe?

no sir

 

[STL717]

ALPA has $87 million in the Major Contingency Fund (MCF). If the TWA pilots are able to convince some moronic judge that they deserve some money (highly unlikely), then the MCF will easily cover the payout without any need to raise dues.

It's wise not to talk about things you know nothing of.

 

[Lear70]

ALPA's main goal is to recapture lost wages due to bankruptcy filings at their Legacy-represented airlines, Delta included.

Anything that helps them accomplish that goal, including increasing OUR salaries for SNB aircraft, only helps them.

I'm not jumping on the ALPA bandwagon quite yet; there's quite a bit of strong feelings both ways in that argument and a lot of history that has left a bad taste in my mouth, but no reason to add black helicopter "they'll throw us under the bus" conspiracy theory to things.

 

[jneely]

but no reason to add black helicopter "they'll throw us under the bus" conspiracy theory to things.

Why not? Most of the FO's on this site seem to think all of us captains are throwing them under the bus. I know it's not the same but might as well stir the sh!t pot.

 

[CitationLover]

ALPA has $87 million in the Major Contingency Fund (MCF). If the TWA pilots are able to convince some moronic judge that they deserve some money (highly unlikely), then the MCF will easily cover the payout without any need to raise dues. I was actually a supporter of raising dues when I was a rep to increase the funds in the OCF, but Captain Beebe was steadfastly opposed and said that he couldn't foresee any circumstances that would require a raising of the dues. Captain Beebe still has over 3 years left on this term, and I doubt you'll see dues raised at all during that time.

last i heard the TWA folks were hoping for a lot more than $87 million. if they prove ALPA sold them out to APA (by trying to bring the APA back into the fold - and they have documents detailing this) the career expectations payout for each and every pilot there could easily exceed $87 million. this payout isn't including punitive damages if ALPA is shown to have maliciously acted.

like you said, it still must be proven in court.....

 

[PCL_128]

last i heard the TWA folks were hoping for a lot more than $87 million.

They can hope for whatever they want. Not a chance in hell that they'll get even a fraction of it.

 

[Lear70]

Why not? Most of the FO's on this site seem to think all of us captains are throwing them under the bus. I know it's not the same but might as well stir the sh!t pot.

LOL - I like to stir the pot from time to time, also, but I don't get that from the F/O's at all.

Several of them have flown with senior CA's who fit that mold (I had lunch next to a guy several weeks ago who openly said he was voting for it and nothing I could say would dissuade him - he didn't care about anyone else).

But, by a FAR cry, those guys are outnumbered by the Captains here who have been F/O's within the last few years, remember what it's like to struggle on F/O pay with a family, or just plain have the moral fortitude to watch out for the little guy - they're just built that way.

A LOT of you CA's fit that description, and I applaud you and thank you for it. Those are the kind of people who will keep the bar from lowering any further...

 

[tubelcane]

As a former TWA and Alllegheny pilot again I say F&^$ ALPA. The only thing they do is give money (your dues)to the democrats. And I remember hearing ALPA offered each TWA pilot $80,000 as a settlement. If that's what they paid out assuming 2400 pilots I believe that's in the neighborhood of $192,000,000. That was turned down if the info I was privvy to was correct. I could really care less if I get a penny from alpa but if a huge settlement or award is given I hope they go bankrupt. Id give my share to charity to see those aholes go down in flames. If we wanted a real negotiating team we'd get the Netjet guys. They earned huge raises and a retro check that would buy a frigging kickass car not 6 months worth of gas!

 

[fletch717]

As a former TWA and Alllegheny pilot again I say F&^$ ALPA. The only thing they do is give money (your dues)to the democrats. And I remember hearing ALPA offered each TWA pilot $80,000 as a settlement. If that's what they paid out assuming 2400 pilots I believe that's in the neighborhood of $192,000,000. That was turned down if the info I was privvy to was correct. I could really care less if I get a penny from alpa but if a huge settlement or award is given I hope they go bankrupt. Id give my share to charity to see those aholes go down in flames. If we wanted a real negotiating team we'd get the Netjet guys. They earned huge raises and a retro check that would buy a frigging kickass car not 6 months worth of gas!

Tube, I'm not sure I follow what you are saying. Maybe you could repost, without sugar coating the issue

 

[Lear70]

If we wanted a real negotiating team we'd get the Netjet guys. They earned huge raises and a retro check that would buy a frigging kickass car not 6 months worth of gas!

That's because management their knows that their pilots control customer retention.

HUGE difference.

If a Netjets pilot decides to go on the warpath, the owners leave, the company loses MILLIONS. AirTran's passengers are just looking for the lowest fare, and will come back again if we have it, even if they had a crappy experience last time.

I know the Netjets MEC Chair, we used to fly together; he's in the very enviable position of having the leverage to keep management in the mindset of keeping their pilots happy...

Not saying your view of ALPA isn't valid, especially given what all you TWA guys went through; that was just plain WRONG. Just making sure that you understand why Netjets pilots are in a better relative position for bargaining.

 

[PCL_128]

Edit: Nevermind. Wasting my time arguing with the anti-ALPA zealots.

 

[tubelcane]

Well after I was furloughed for a few years I also had the pleasure of working for Flight Options for 2 years. If companies like that are the competition to Netjets, the owners won't go anywhere. Options is the Kmart and Netjets is the Nieman Marcus. Maybe Citation Shares is real competition, but the fact is Netjets is bigger, better, etc. If people are treated crappy anywhere they will leave, pilots or owners/customers. I don't know where I'm going with this, but I know there is going to be a mass-exodus at Airtran if this TA goes through. We need no nonsense leadership, with a clear vision, who communicates to the pilots. And when they poll them for direction they actually follow the groups' wishes. I guess that's all I was saying those guys went in after a weaker union leadership was thrown out and got a great deal for the Netjets guys.

And to be crystal F*&^ ALPA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Lear70]

Well, after a lengthy discussion with other NPA presidential candidate hopefuls, I've decided to withdraw from consideration.

I'm fully confident that the company will restore me to flight status fairly soon, especially after my discussion with a labor firm I have engaged, so it's not that at all.

As I've said before, it's really a matter of there being candidates who are in a better position to help the pilot group. I'm sure I could do the job, and I'm certain that I could rally the pilots and get the solidarity we need moving forward, but the NPA is so drastically different in organization than an ALPA carrier that every time I think I've figured out who does what and why, I find out something ELSE that's different, and we can't afford to have someone "learning as they go" as the NPA president.

Because of that, 2 candidates jump out at me as better representational choices: Brad Dunlap, and Mike Best. I know there's a lot of feelings about both gentlemen, some have a hard time with Brad's involvement in past administrations although the truth is different than the rumors that are out there.

I believe both candidates have the experience, knowledge, and skill to lead us to a better contract and now, after the recall, as the nomination period opened yesterday at noon and runs through the 24th at noon, please make sure you nominate these candidates as well as vote when the time comes.

The nomination form can be found on the NPA website or here:

http://www.npa-atl.org/member/docs/Nomination Form-Special election for President.pdf

Your nominations are just as important as your votes, because they determine who will be on the ballot.

Thanks again for everyone's support!

 

[Ty Webb]

I think that's probably smart, Rich. This is going to be a very challenging time for the NPA going forward, and why spend your time "scaling the learning curve" when you can offer your analytical ability and knowledge of Contract 2001, TA1, TA2 . . . and of course TA3 . . . . and maybe TA4.


.

 

[Lear70]

I think that's probably smart, Rich. This is going to be a very challenging time for the NPA going forward, and why spend your time "scaling the learning curve" when you can offer your analytical ability and knowledge of Contract 2001, TA1, TA2 . . . and of course TA3 . . . . and maybe TA4.
.

NOOoooo... TA4... hush your mouth!

Seriously, just don't want to do the pilot group a disservice, that's all, and now that I know both Brad's and Mike's ideas and that they'd both work for all ranges of the seniority list, I'm happy to let them run without me.

 

[humveedriver]

Sounds like you probably just got your spot at the negotiating table. Assuming the TA does not pass. Good luck to all.

 

[RIDETHELIGHTING]

Lear must be at the neg. table!!!!

 

[ngsp]

sorry, lear. i will have to respectively disagree. brad has too much history in past NPA leadership positions and mike creates an atmosphere of hostility towards management. i do not believe the company will deal with mike or brad. here is my dream team. schroll and sabby elected. they replace the nego. committee. let the NC do their job while brad, mike and yourself sit in the background and do what you do best. analyze the document for loop holes. this way the three that truly can pick a TA apart can take an objective look at the proceedings as they progress and the company will have no excuse of not talking to the NC due to the fact that mike, brad, and yourself or in the room. i think this is the best of all worlds. new leadership, new NC, and mike, brad, and rich giving the pilot group their opinion while not making the negotitating environment worse than it already is.

 

[PCL_128]

schroll and sabby elected.

I don't know enough about Sabby, but Schroll's ideas about not working full-time as President, cutting dues and the budget, and shrinking the NPA structure are just plain scary. I'm not sure who I'll be voting for yet, but it won't be Schroll.

 

[ATLDRVR]

Please do not vote for DS. Talk to anyone who has flown with DS and I think most of them will agree that he is not a good choice.

 

[snuba]

Why do we have to accommodate the company. Kolski is still there.

 

[Lear70]

sorry, lear. i will have to respectively disagree. brad has too much history in past NPA leadership positions and mike creates an atmosphere of hostility towards management.

Hey, I don't have all the answers, disagreeing and debating are what bring people to common viewpoints,,,

I've heard the history and I know a lot of people don't like Brad because of it, but think about what you're saying. We should put someone in the NPA (pres, vp, or NC) who management likes?

Our T.A. we are voting on is a direct result of doing just that... getting rid of people the company didn't want to talk to and leaving the people in who the company DID want to talk to and look what we got.

Just a thought.

i do not believe the company will deal with mike or brad.

That's not their decision to make, that's ours, and they WILL deal with whoever the NPA puts out there. To put someone in who is going to be afraid to rub them the wrong way sometimes will just hurt us that much more.

here is my dream team. schroll and sabby elected.

I have to disagree with you there. I've talked to every single candidate who's talked about running, and Schroll has ideas about the NPA structure and how he can run the NPA from the road that just WON'T work.

There's NO way the NPA president can fly the line AND deal with negotiations, AND deal with contract violations, AND deal with grievances, AND deal with disciplinary actions, etc, etc, all at the same time. Schroll's idea just won't work and it would be a mistake to try that would likely cost us a lot of time, money, and effort.

On the upside, we DO have a lot of experience to draw on, and I've talked to several pilots who have negotiated at other companies, but I don't think those guys will get involved with Schroll/Sabby running it.