Great news story about us!!

[Way2Broke]

What does that have to do with pay? Although I don't like the idea of 10 month/200 hour FOs, it really has nothing to do with pay scales.

It has everything to do with pay scales. Business is supply and demand. When we run out of the 200 hr FOs maybe the CEOs will figure this out.

 

[Sticky]

I guess you don't understand the law of supply and demand then..... If we tighten up on the requirements to occupy the right seat, the pay will come up accordingly.....

Based on their qualifications, one could argue that they are overpaid based on the qualifications....

Can you name any other profession that allows you to enter with such little experience? That is our problem and WE created it..... management is simply taking advantage of our failure....

I guess you don't understand that supply/demand has nothing to do with 10 month/200 hour RJ FOs and low starting regional pay.

We all can remember when you needed THOUSANDS of hours with turbine time to get a chance to interview with a turboprop company. There were plenty of pilots willing to work for low starting pay.

Within the past ten years....there has been shortages and surpluses of pilots. Regional pay has remained low regardless. I'm sure we can all agree that 10 month pilot factories are not the best way to learn the skills to be a safe/knowledgeable/professional pilot. However, they are not reason for low regional pay. It is also not simply supply/demand. I'd be willing to bet even if the pilot supply dried up, the regionals would close down before increasing pilot pay to anything impressive.

The best example of this would be Russia. Very few pilots to spare....but the pay is still awful.

The airlines don't pay pilots, the passengers do. When the passengers won't or can't pay, we don't get paid.

It has everything to do with pay scales. Business is supply and demand...

For lawn services yes. The aviation industry is far too complex to be controlled by simple supply/demand. There are too many other factors.

The only when to change this is to artificially change the market (i.e. Union Actions)

 

[ex j-41]

I guess you don't understand that supply/demand has nothing to do with 10 month/200 hour RJ FOs and low starting regional pay.

We all can remember when you needed THOUSANDS of hours with turbine time to get a chance to interview with a turboprop company. There were plenty of pilots willing to work for low starting pay.

Within the past ten years....there has been shortages and surpluses of pilots. Regional pay has remained low regardless. I'm sure we can all agree that 10 month pilot factories are not the best way to learn the skills to be a safe/knowledgeable/professional pilot. However, they are not reason for low regional pay. It is also not simply supply/demand. I'd be willing to bet even if the pilot supply dried up, the regionals would close down before increasing pilot pay to anything impressive.

The best example of this would be Russia. Very few pilots to spare....but the pay is still awful.

The airlines don't pay pilots, the passengers do. When the passengers won't or can't pay, we don't get paid.



For lawn services yes. The aviation industry is far too complex to be controlled by simple supply/demand. There are too many other factors.

The only when to change this is to artificially change the market (i.e. Union Actions)

I agree, but will add that the passengers are getting what they paid for. Service is at an all time low. Everyday i hear "I am never going to fly XXX airlines ever again". When the airlines are saturated with passengers the prices and services will go up. I believe that is where we are today. Rock bottom and nowhere to go but up!

 

[CFI2766]

I agree, but will add that the passengers are getting what they paid for. Service is at an all time low. Everyday i hear "I am never going to fly XXX airlines ever again". When the airlines are saturated with passengers the prices and services will go up. I believe that is where we are today. Rock bottom and nowhere to go but up!

Optimistic, but not realistic.

In this commodity business, a new carrier would simply open up to offer new 'rock bottom prices.'

Southwest.

Jet Blue.

Airtran.

Skybus.

Virgin America.

All the 'lowest' price carrier of their time.

 

[CFI2766]

I do agree, however, that the aviation consumer really doesn't care about customer service, when compared to ticket price. Ticket price is the number one factor in determining travel choices.

 

[CFI2766]

And, back to the supply and demand discussion:

Can you blame the folks taking the job now with 300tt? There isn't a one of us who would have turned down the job given the opportunity. Sure, some needed more time than others to get hired, but that doesn't mean that the folks who got here with less total time deserve the job any less.

To turn the question around, how would you feel if the hiring minimums were suddenly, through new regulations [brought about by ALPA, RJDC, FAA, TSA, whatever...you get the point] double whatever you had when you got hired? The same folks currently whining the loudest for barriers to entry would be the folks crying about the injustice of the situation.

 

[ex j-41]

If you want to fly at an airline then you need an ATPL.

Ohhhh wouldn't that be great!
Kinda like if you want to be a doctor at a hospital then you need to be a doctor.

 

[00Dog]

I do agree, however, that the aviation consumer really doesn't care about customer service, when compared to ticket price. Ticket price is the number one factor in determining travel choices.

My buddy (an engineer) told me the other day "I used to pay a little more to avoid United. Now I pay up to 50% over the cost of the United ticket if they have the cheapest fare."

It made me laugh but I guess he'll have to keep doing this until he runs out of airlines. They all suck.

 

[Way2Broke]

I guess you don't understand that supply/demand has nothing to do with 10 month/200 hour RJ FOs and low starting regional pay.

We all can remember when you needed THOUSANDS of hours with turbine time to get a chance to interview with a turboprop company. There were plenty of pilots willing to work for low starting pay.

Within the past ten years....there has been shortages and surpluses of pilots. Regional pay has remained low regardless. I'm sure we can all agree that 10 month pilot factories are not the best way to learn the skills to be a safe/knowledgeable/professional pilot. However, they are not reason for low regional pay. It is also not simply supply/demand. I'd be willing to bet even if the pilot supply dried up, the regionals would close down before increasing pilot pay to anything impressive.

The best example of this would be Russia. Very few pilots to spare....but the pay is still awful.

The airlines don't pay pilots, the passengers do. When the passengers won't or can't pay, we don't get paid.



For lawn services yes. The aviation industry is far too complex to be controlled by simple supply/demand. There are too many other factors.

The only when to change this is to artificially change the market (i.e. Union Actions)

The STARTING pay if awful because you take the jobs. I honestly believe that once you get past the first few years the pay isn't all that bad. Especially now that upgrade is so quick at most places. The company I work for has no union, starts at almost 40k a year, full benefits, just raised per diem, just upped the training pay, has no training contract, and yes has hired at least one 250 hour pilot (not me). Of course I don't walk through a terminal every day like all the other kids want to do, I guess that is why not many of them come here. I get to really fly, no automation etc. Its what I signed up to do when I became a pilot.

What is your union action going to do for you? Nothing! Because so many people don't care. Look at Colgan. Most of there pilots did not even bother to vote yes or no to a union.... they just didn't bother to vote. Shows alot about how involved regional pilots are with their company. I'm not anti union, but I am for doing something right if your going to do it.

Also, your not going to be allowed by the NMB to take any "union action" unless a change occurs in the white house.

It is supply and demand! There is little supply, and so far that has only DEMANDED that companies put out sign on bonuses. If the shortage continues (and it will) pay will go up. Or the company will go out of business because it takes employees to run a company. In this case those employees are pilots.

The solution would be to put the RJs back at the Majors where they belonged in the first place and we would all be in great shape. But I'm afraid its too late for that.

My opinion may not be popular but its my opinion and I am willing to listen to yours. So have at it.

 

[JustaNumber]

The airlines don't pay pilots, the passengers do. When the passengers won't or can't pay, we don't get paid.

The aviation industry is far too complex to be controlled by simple supply/demand. There are too many other factors.

Agreed, the industry is very complex and there are many factors at work affecting our current payscales, but I would still argue that it primarily comes down to supply and demand.

Over the past few years, there has been an excess supply of 50 seat regional jet capacity, coupled with decreasing demand in the RJ marketplace. (Ironically, this is due to more pax flying, meaning larger mainline aircraft are taking back flying from RJ's). With no effective scope to protect anyone's flying, the majors have been free to put out for bid almost all the remaining regional flying they want. Regionals with extra RJs are falling all over themselves to underbid each other for the flying, thus managements apply pressure on labor to keep wages low so they can afford the low bids. And up until recently, plenty of pilots (excess supply) have been willing to work at these lower wages.

But now finally, the supply of experienced pilots is starting to dry up. If we ever truly do have a real shortage (we're not quite there yet), and regionals can't cover their current flying with overtime/extensions/etc., then airplanes would be parked and flights would be cancelled. That's when consumer demand would play a role. If every seat on every remaining flight was sold, consumers would eventually be willing to pay a premium not to have to drive. Ticket prices and airline revenues would go up, and airlines would finally raise wages to attract enough pilots to satisfy customer demand.

The only problem is, I don't see the above scenario coming to pass. Either the supply of new pilots will not completely dry up, or if it does, regionals could simply recruit college or even high school grads, and sponsor them through their commercial pilot's license in exchange for a few years of indentured servitude. Factor in the reduced cost of the soon-to-be-new MPL, and problem solved. Too bad ALPA seems to be endorsing the MPL.

As someone else referred to, perhaps the only solution is union coordination that somehow limits the supply of labor through effective scope. Unfortunately, that's easier said than done.

 

[Superpilot92]

still misleading.
He told them we are making $18-$20/hour. To all the uneducated ones out there that is still 5 times the minimum wage. What he should of said is that pilots are making $20k/year.

Yeah but the "educated" people that watched it dont think 18-20 bucks an hour is a lot of money either.

 

[Sticky]

The only problem is, I don't see the above scenario coming to pass. Either the supply of new pilots will not completely dry up, or if it does, regionals could simply recruit college or even high school grads, and sponsor them through their commercial pilot's license in exchange for a few years of indentured servitude.

Right on the money. Thats what really scares me.

On a second note. The claim that pilots pay is determined by supply/demand can also be disbanded by including the term value.

What is the value of an airline pilot?

35 years ago an airline pilot needed to be a very knowledgeable/experienced professional. The equipment they were operating demanded it. No SECAL/ACARS. No multicolored radar. No FMS/FMC. No terrain/windshear warning. Today, due to all the wonderful tech inside our fancy airplanes, we no longer need those same skills.

Think of it this way. Why does a medical doctor earn far more then an EMT? They both save lives. In fact, the EMT probably saves more lives. Needless to say, almost anyone can be an EMT. Not everyone can commit to 8 years of school and 4 years of residencies.

 

[Captain Morgan]

That is a good point.

 

[Sticky]

WOW..my first compelment on Flightinfo. It only took 4 years!!

 

[Sticky]

The STARTING pay if awful because you take the jobs.....My opinion may not be popular but its my opinion and I am willing to listen to yours. So have at it.

OK..I'll take a bite. Although I understand and like your points, but only you've only scrached the surface. The low pay blame doesn't belong to low timers who "take the jobs". The pay has always been low regardless of flight experience required. To say that the reason that regional pay is so bad is because we take the jobs is also over simplified. If there were no more new pilots tomorrow, the regionals would fold very quickly. Those aircraft will never and could never pay higher salaries for a number of reasons. To put it simply, the market won't allow it.

When you proudly say that your company pays $40K first year salary, is that pre-tax? If so, thats the same as making $27 an hour at an airline after per-diem.

BTW..Do you really think that "kids" just want to be airline pilots because of walking through a terminal in uniform? Maybe 10 year old kids do, but not anyone I know.