When is US Air West going to sue ALPA?

[AVI8V1]

trainer8,

I'm with you on that. So long to this thread.

 

[PHXFLYR]

Your sarcasm has been noted. I can tell that there are alot more vocal AWA pilots on this board. So let me ask you guys the definition of a "windfall". If you project the integration out 7 years or so (with AAA retiring 4 pilots for every 1 from AWA), CLOSE TO EVERY WIDEBODY CAPTAIN SPOT will be occupied by an AMERICA WEST PILOT if they bid for it. You guys didn't have any widebodies or int'l presence pre merger. I can understand why you are so fiercely defending the arbitration.

Reality is there are a lot of East pilots who are fed up and they want to have a way to make their voices heard. They don't care about your numbers or clever sarcasm; they don't care that AWA was very competitive in 2003, they could not care less that you say "binding is binding" like a child who is afraid to come out from behind Daddy Nicolau- what they do care about is getting these groups intergrated in a more palatable and balanced fashion.

And what would that be?


Phxflyr

 

[PHXFLYR]

You are wasting your time, here. There will be no concensus or understanding between the the pilot groups. They are philisophically and ideologically opposite regarding the arbitration.

The most unfortunate casualty of this arbitration award is the loss of professionalism between airmen demonstrated on this board and that has been carried into the cockpit and cabin on both carriers.

Fortunately, for the friends I have who fly for US Airways West, some who were former APL blokes, we maintain a friendship and professional attitude, while at the same time, disagreeing on the merits of the Award. It can be done.

It's time to move on.

T8

For someone who backed into their job,you seem to have a lot to say about how the award went down,don't you?

PHXFLYR

 

[cactusboy53]

The "no windfall" clause is what the East is arguing was violated. ..... The East argues that the pilots on the West received such a windfall, therefore the arbitrator didn't comply with ALPA merger policy.

So says the East. Your perception is your perception. I would be willing to bet you have not read / researched the arbitration transcripts, have you?

Meanwhile....the windfall continues:
Upgrades.......up until recently, all EAST.
Hiring (or re-hiring).....all EAST.
New Aircraft.............all EAST.
New City Annoucements.......all EAST.

Again, what part of BINDING ARBITRATION is that difficult to understand??

 

[ultrarunner]

Reality is there are a lot of East pilots who are fed up and they want to have a way to make their voices heard....

...what they do care about is getting these groups intergrated in a more palatable and balanced fashion.

If that was the case then, why did it go to binding arbitration...you can't have it both ways, right??

 

[Fast43]

Your sarcasm has been noted. I can tell that there are alot more vocal AWA pilots on this board. So let me ask you guys the definition of a "windfall". If you project the integration out 7 years or so (with AAA retiring 4 pilots for every 1 from AWA), CLOSE TO EVERY WIDEBODY CAPTAIN SPOT will be occupied by an AMERICA WEST PILOT if they bid for it. You guys didn't have any widebodies or int'l presence pre merger. I can understand why you are so fiercely defending the arbitration.

Reality is there are a lot of East pilots who are fed up and they want to have a way to make their voices heard. They don't care about your numbers or clever sarcasm; they don't care that AWA was very competitive in 2003, they could not care less that you say "binding is binding" like a child who is afraid to come out from behind Daddy Nicolau- what they do care about is getting these groups intergrated in a more palatable and balanced fashion.

Could it be that the 4 years of widebody fence that the Nic set up, is a windfall in and of itself. Since AAA was nearing the end of its path to Liquidation how can they claim with a straight face that they would have had widebodies to fly beyond June or July of 2005. Clearly that is they way Nic saw it, as he stated that the AAA pilots benefited much more from this merger than their West counterparts.

Clearly you need to read the transcripts of the Arbitration. I'm sure you will find it eye opening as would the East guys.

Too bad their MEC decided that they should not have access to them.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Captain that I used to fly with who was never furloughed and was hired in 1986 is junior to a guy hired in late 2000.

When he was doing his first IOE with USAir the guy now senior to him was in the 10th grade.

No matter how you look at it, something is not right about that.

 

[get2flyin]

Captain that I used to fly with who was never furloughed and was hired in 1986 is junior to a guy hired in late 2000.

When he was doing his first IOE with USAir the guy now senior to him was in the 10th grade.

No matter how you look at it, something is not right about that.

You're mixing age with seniority. For the basis of integration, age is irrelevant. I think the only time age should be the basis for determining seniority is within a new-hire class. When I hired on, the oldest was 46 and the youngest was 26. After the first 5 minutes of day one, age was no longer an issue.

If it was an issue, why didn't USAir just ask Nic. for integration by age and not DOH? Woulda made the senior Westies happy. That way they wouldn't have gotten stuck behind the 500+ golden boys on top of the list...

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

You're mixing age with seniority. For the basis of integration, age is irrelevant. I think the only time age should be the basis for determining seniority is within a new-hire class. When I hired on, the oldest was 46 and the youngest was 26. After the first 5 minutes of day one, age was no longer an issue.

If it was an issue, why didn't USAir just ask Nic. for integration by age and not DOH? Woulda made the senior Westies happy. That way they wouldn't have gotten stuck behind the 500+ golden boys on top of the list...

I never mentioned age, except if you inferred the guys age through the fact that he was in the 10th grade.

Talking time in service here. 21 years vs 7. The fact that the guy now senior to him was not old enough to even hold a Pvt. pilot cert when my friend was flying a 737 for USAir just amplifies the problems with this award.

 

[TWA Dude]

No matter how you look at it, something is not right about that.

I know what's not right about it: you're injecting emotion into what must be a non-emotional process. Nicolau used rational logic in evaluating the career expectations of both sides and clearly explained his reasoning. But I'll tell you what, if the USAir guys had gotten what they wanted (DOH/LOH) the result would've been approximately 2/3 of the AWA list stapled. Tell me what's "right" about that?

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

I know what's not right about it: you're injecting emotion into what must be a non-emotional process. Nicolau used rational logic in evaluating the career expectations of both sides and clearly explained his reasoning. But I'll tell you what, if the USAir guys had gotten what they wanted (DOH/LOH) the result would've been approximately 2/3 of the AWA list stapled. Tell me what's "right" about that?

I see your point, having 2/3 of the Airways guys stapled to the bottom of the list is much more fair, especially since most are now junior to guys hired a decade and a half after they were. Why didn't you say so in the first place?

This is just the TWA integration all over again. I would think that you of all people would see it from a different light, but then again you are the AA pilot in this transaction not the TWA guy this time around. Although AWA was never anywhere near the airline that AA was when it bought TWA.

The result we will have in about 5 years is a 8 year 7000 hour Captain flying with a 26 year 20000 hour F/O. I have a buddy at AWA that was hired in 04, when he upgrades it will be his first Captain seat ever. His F/O will probably have been Captain on 3 or 4 airplanes, at USAir alone.

 

[m80drvr]

The result we will have in about 5 years is a 8 year 7000 hour Captain flying with a 26 year 20000 hour F/O. I have a buddy at AWA that was hired in 04, when he upgrades it will be his first Captain seat ever. His F/O will probably have been Captain on 3 or 4 airplanes, at USAir alone.

And your point is? Length of service and DOH are not in ALPA merger policy. It sucks to be the 20 yr FO at USAirways but if 20 years can only hold bottom FO he got slotter right next to the bottom West FO. By your estimation I would assume it would have been more fair for the east to recall guys from furlough to line holding captain position.

USAir is a crappy airline that has a few good years then a decade or so of furlough and cutbacks. It has gone through that cycle for YEARS. How many times have they been bankrupt? Their is no other major that has 20 year reserve holding FO's. It is not the west pilots fault that the east pilots have had a crappy career with a crappy airline. They should not pay with their careers to try to make the east FOs whole again. That is included in ALPA merger policy.

When I was hired at USAir in 99 I was told by one of the first captains I flew with that "USAir is a black hole that sucks you in and destroys you." He continued "you are young and you need to try to get on with any other major. Run away from USAir". No joke, this was part of his brief when I met him in the PIT crew room.

Most of the east guys have had a crappy career, that does not entitle them to better their position at the expense of the younger (relatively in the same seniority position) west pilots.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

And your point is? Length of service and DOH are not in ALPA merger policy. It sucks to be the 20 yr FO at USAirways but if 20 years can only hold bottom FO he got slotter right next to the bottom West FO. By your estimation I would assume it would have been more fair for the east to recall guys from furlough to line holding captain position.

USAir is a crappy airline that has a few good years then a decade or so of furlough and cutbacks. It has gone through that cycle for YEARS. How many times have they been bankrupt? Their is no other major that has 20 year reserve holding FO's. It is not the west pilots fault that the east pilots have had a crappy career with a crappy airline. They should not pay with their careers to try to make the east FOs whole again. That is included in ALPA merger policy.

When I was hired at USAir in 99 I was told by one of the first captains I flew with that "USAir is a black hole that sucks you in and destroys you." He continued "you are young and you need to try to get on with any other major. Run away from USAir". No joke, this was part of his brief when I met him in the PIT crew room.

Most of the east guys have had a crappy career, that does not entitle them to better their position at the expense of the younger (relatively in the same seniority position) west pilots.

Fine then fence all existing aircraft at both sides to their respective pilot groups until the retirement boon at airways is over. AWA keeps their career expectations and so does the AAA guys. Fill all new aircraft with the percentages that existed prior to the merger. AWA gets what their list would have provided, as does Airways.

If the regionals can keep up with the ratios of seats required for the J4J program, airways should be able to figure it out.

As it stands now, AWA will be the only ones who benefit from USAirs 70% retirement rate over the next 10 years.

As far as Airways bettering their position....who are we kidding here, the young AWA guys are the one bettering their position at the expense of the 20 year airways guys. "Hello, I was hired in 2004 by AWA, now here it is 2009 and I am a widebody Captain with USAir" That statement was not made possible by what AWA brought to the table in equipment and retirements.


P.S. Arguing about it is probably pointless though, anybody flying the system knows that Airways is making money in spite of themselves right now. I doubt that LCC will make it more than a few years before it is wiped out by the storm mgmt. has created here. Everyday out there is an exercise just to keep the disfunctional mess moving. Moral is horrible, it won't take much to light the fuse on the implosion.

 

[TWA Dude]

I see your point, having 2/3 of the Airways guys stapled to the bottom of the list is much more fair,...

None of the active USAir pilots got stapled. And whether you think what they did get is fair is irrelevant -- that's why a neutral arbitrator had to rule.

... especially since most are now junior to guys hired a decade and a half after they were.

As others have pointed out numerous times, how long before me they were hired is irrelevant. On the day of the merger half the active USAir pilots were FOs (yes, even those with twenty years longevity) and the Nicolau Award keeps them FOs until normal attrition makes them captains.

This is just the TWA integration all over again.

You've just lost all credibilty. TWA had an integration unilaterally imposed on us by the people who stood to gain from stapling 2/3 of us. AWA and USAirways negotiated as equals and both agreed to binding arbitration come what may. Things couldn't be more different.

I would think that you of all people would see it from a different light,...

That's because you think irrationally. At TWA I would've happily submitted to binding arbitration with AA and accepted the results. What the APA imposed on us doesn't anger me anywhere close to the fact that the process they controlled was unfair. AWA and USA went through a fair process and the Easties are angry because their expectations were unrealistic.

The result we will have in about 5 years ...

Blah, blah, blah. Nicolau explained his reasoning and I don't need to justify it. I don't mind the Easties disliking the Award but their extortion to get around it is inexcusable.

 

[vetrider]

AWA and USA went through a fair process and the Easties are angry because their expectations were unrealistic.Blah, blah, blah. Nicolau explained his reasoning and I don't need to justify it. I don't mind the Easties disliking the Award but their extortion to get around it is inexcusable.

Bingo. Straight to the heart of the matter as I see it. Nothing more needs to be said.

 

[Soulfly]

One other point. About 50% of the EAST retirements in June were FO's. So there are really not as many captian positions due to attrition as some on the outside would think. On the other hand almost all retirements on the WEST are captains. So upgrades based on attrition are much higher on the west side.
Sorry for using logic here. I know that doesn't go over so well here.

 

[weasel_lips]

A fence will probably not be necessary, since there will never be a joint CBA.

What rational person would vote yes (joint CBA) to something that will cost them the left seat.

You can aruge that a joint CBA will have more pay and better QOL. However, those positives are simply trumped by loss of the left seat. PERIOD.

 

[m80drvr]

Fine then fence all existing aircraft at both sides to their respective pilot groups until the retirement boon at airways is over. AWA keeps their career expectations and so does the AAA guys. Fill all new aircraft with the percentages that existed prior to the merger. AWA gets what their list would have provided, as does Airways.

If the regionals can keep up with the ratios of seats required for the J4J program, airways should be able to figure it out.

As it stands now, AWA will be the only ones who benefit from USAirs 70% retirement rate over the next 10 years.

Great Idea. Build a HUGE fence. Then all the new aircraft go to the west side cause they had planes on order and were hiring. The east, by your rational, will then park all their 73's and furlough the pilots in seniority order, because (again due to your rational) they were shrinking and parking airplanes. I think the west would go for that. By your on comments this should be ok with you. That was what was going on when the merger happened.

As far as Airways bettering their position....who are we kidding here, the young AWA guys are the one bettering their position at the expense of the 20 year airways guys. "Hello, I was hired in 2004 by AWA, now here it is 2009 and I am a widebody Captain with USAir" That statement was not made possible by what AWA brought to the table in equipment and retirements.

Great sound bite. But it is high on emotion and low on truth.

If you believe that a 04 west hire will be flying a widebody let alone 757 by 2009 you are nuts. Nice try though didn't pass the smell test.

You may want to check those retirement figures to see exactly how many of those seats are filled with FO's. I believe its about 50%. Almost all of the west guys are four stripers.

Don't get me wrong, I was once an east guy and had the time of my life there. That being said there is no excuse for their actions now. They may just put AAA out of business with the loss of about 50,000 jobs due to their childish behavior. They chose arbitration and got relative seniority. Yet that's not good enough so let's burn the company down. Great idea guys.

One more thing, if and when parker gets tired of all the east's crap and he sells it off, I would assume the buyer, say maybe UAL would not want the problem children of the east and all the headaches the bring They would have parker bankrupt the company, throw out LOA 93 and the fragmantation protections and sell the pieces off WITHOUT the pilots. Think this is out of the question? I'm betting its already on the table. Parker's merger plan will only work if the airlines merge PERIOD. The company will fragment or cease to exist if the east pilots do as they say they say they will do and force parker to never merge so the Nicleau list cannot be applied.

Again I was an east pilot I just am ashamed that they would act this way enlight of the fact that they agreed to the process. What makes it worse is their attempt to extort ALPA into forcing the west pilots to modify the list until it suits them. That is wrong and where does that leave ALPA when the next round of mergers takes place? This whole thing is disgusting

 

[m80drvr]

A fence will probably not be necessary, since there will never be a joint CBA.

What rational person would vote yes (joint CBA) to something that will cost them the left seat.

You can aruge that a joint CBA will have more pay and better QOL. However, those positives are simply trumped by loss of the left seat. PERIOD.

And the company will be sold off in little pieces without the pilots. That is a GREAT plan. What's better, to be 55 years old as an FO making 110k or so a year of "Captain" at an airline that is out of business. Try and find a guy who was 55 years old when Braniff or EAL went out of businss. Ask them what they would have chosen for the last few years of their career.

1. 100k+ salary and 10 to 15% a month going directly into their retirement as a senior FO or.


2. Unemployed at 55, a few years from retirement, kids in college, and a house payment. Though I do hear Mesa is hiring.

Funny, the east guys are upset at yanking gear for a guy with 10 years on the property. Just think how happy they will be yanking gear for a 1000hr mesa captain.

Food for thought

 

[Hpilot]

It's sad but true. The East guys are putting themselves in harms way because they feel the arbitration was a windfall for the west. If anything it was a windfall for the east. Our airline was the acquiring airline yet our senior guys went over 500 slots down the list. Instead of being thankful they're pushing toward an outcome that will hurt them more than us. It's like, "hey do what I say or I'm going to jump in front of this moving bus" Ah yeah right, go right ahead morons. I think all the rational intelligent guys like 80drvr moved on long ago.