Skybus wanabee's, think long and hard!

[Golden Falcon]

The more militant alpa??? against who??? Other pilots??

 

[Jonny Sacko]

Ya, the younger ones. ALPA wants the age 60 to change. Excellent job of representing the minority, with agendas. Bastards!

 

[HA25]

An a 2nd year widebody FO at Fedex makes more than a 10 yr Gemini CA. You really don't get it, do you!!! Pot meet kettle.

NO, you really don't get it.. you're NOT reading my posts. Gemini DOES not a) fly their own freight, and b) fly express packages. it's a whole different type of revenue structure. and c) we got this contract while in BK.. what do you expect? is Fedex or UPS in BK? Not even close!

If you read my post you would see how the comparison of SkyBus to South West is a apples to apples while Gemini to Fedex is Apples to Oranges.. YES, we are underpaid, and many of us (those that haven't yet voted with their feet) trying to get the pay up, but for now, with the pay scales as they are at the legacies and places like Jet Blue, where those companies are doing better than we are, it's hard to justify (to the current type of mediators at the NMB) that we deserve more for our 8 airplane company that just freshly emerged from a BK!

You don't get it.. you just want to hurl insults rather than address the topic of NEW airlines starting up that are brining the rest of us down.

Try to actually contribute to the debate rather than just exercise your fingers with ad hominem attacks.

What is your view on Skybus? You work for them, maybe?

 

[HA25]

BTW.. I'll be the first to say that Gemini's pilot membership fell for managements scare tactic that if we didn't accept this last contract (I wasn't there at that time) that we'd have to park DC-10's and furlough 1/2 the labor force... We were in a hard spot with the BK, and the BK Judge hanging over us, and the company making serious threats to park airplanes, so many panicked and voted yes when they should have held tough and voted no, but I wasn't there, and it's easy for anyone to say they should have voted no, when they're not there and their job isn't on the line. It only passed 49/51 and this alone was a message that "the next time" it will not go so easily if we're "making money".. Don't count GEM-ALPA out yet.. we've got 2009 to get ours. As the legacy carriers are planing on doing when they get their chance at the table post-BK.

This is a TOTALLY different scenario from a well capitalized, true start up that is going in with a business model from the get go (based on Ryan Air) intended to keep wages way down. VERY DIFFERENT.

 

[HA25]

This is the WORST excuse I have EVER heard! V70T5, just get your sh*t get out and shut the ***k up. Tool

Share with us then, what are you doing to try to raise the bar?

How do you know I'm not raising hell trying to get our pay up higher at GAC and getting "involved"

again.. what are you doing besides throwing out personal insults at me?

 

[FADEC]

NO, you really don't get it.. you're NOT reading my posts. Gemini DOES not a) fly their own freight, and b) fly express packages. it's a whole different type of revenue structure. and c) we got this contract while in BK.. what do you expect? is Fedex or UPS in BK? Not even close!

If you read my post you would see how the comparison of SkyBus to South West is a apples to apples while Gemini to Fedex is Apples to Oranges.. YES, we are underpaid, and many of us (those that haven't yet voted with their feet) trying to get the pay up, but for now, with the pay scales as they are at the legacies and places like Jet Blue, where those companies are doing better than we are, it's hard to justify (to the current type of mediators at the NMB) that we deserve more for our 8 airplane company that just freshly emerged from a BK!

You don't get it.. you just want to hurl insults rather than address the topic of NEW airlines starting up that are brining the rest of us down.

Try to actually contribute to the debate rather than just exercise your fingers with ad hominem attacks.

What is your view on Skybus? You work for them, maybe?

You may be a really nice guy but you're arguments are completely flawed. You berate guys who go fly for Skybus or Virgin America because their payrates are below industry standard. Yes they are below industry standard but so are your rates at Gemini. An MD 11 is the same size no matter what colour the tail is. You go on about Gemini getting their crappy contract when they were in bankruptcy but thats just your own way of justifying your own companies crappy contract. The fact that Gemini has 8 aircraft is completely irrelevent. Jetblue has 100 airbus compared to Southwests 400+ 737s so does that justify and explain the $50,000 difference in the left seat between both companies, I think not. I suspect that that you have very little real experience in this industry and if given the chance you would jump at a left seat slot at either Virgin America or Skybus. You talk a good story but I bet that your QOL at Gemini is not nearly as good as you would like us to believe. I have several friends at World and although they are also home based when they airline anywhere it is generally in a middle seat in economy. I really doubt that Gemini will spring for a business class seat especially since they have just come out of bankruptcy. In conclusion you admit that your pay is subpar and that you are trying to get it raised. Please enlighten us as to how you are going about this. Once again you are very vocal about other companies poor payscales but you are willing to work for a company with substantard payscales for the size of the equipment you fly. A first year reserve captain at Virgin America will make nearly as much as a 7 year reserve Gemini Captain and I bet the VX pilot has much better QOL. I'm sorry, I still contend that you are a hypocrite.

 

[HA25]

You may be a really nice guy but you're arguments are completely flawed. You berate guys who go fly for Skybus or Virgin America because their payrates are below industry standard. Yes they are below industry standard but so are your rates at Gemini. An MD 11 is the same size no matter what colour the tail is. You go on about Gemini getting their crappy contract when they were in bankruptcy but thats just your own way of justifying your own companies crappy contract. The fact that Gemini has 8 aircraft is completely irrelevent. Jetblue has 100 airbus compared to Southwests 400+ 737s so does that justify and explain the $50,000 difference in the left seat between both companies, I think not.

Thanks for addressing my points this time. I appreciate that.

I know it comes of as hypocritical, but would my comments have any more merit if I were the 1st year FO at ASA, or a 20 year CA at UPS? My arguments stand on their own. WE DON'T NEED ANY MORE LCC's COMPETING WITH LEGACY CARRIERS with low pay and high productivity work rules! PERIOD!

I suspect that that you have very little real experience in this industry and if given the chance you would jump at a left seat slot at either Virgin America or Skybus.

If 15 years, 6000 hours, and 4 type ratings with 3 employers and a furlough from American is little.. then guilty!

You talk a good story but I bet that your QOL at Gemini is not nearly as good as you would like us to believe. I have several friends at World and although they are also home based when they airline anywhere it is generally in a middle seat in economy.

World gets more money, but we do have a better work rules.. Work rules are part of the "pay equation" when a contract is made.

I really doubt that Gemini will spring for a business class seat especially since they have just come out of bankruptcy.

In my few months flying the line, I've travelled in Coach 3 times, and business class more than 10.. All flying into India and Africa (where 2/3 of our contracts are) require business class.. and the pilots are militant about changing that to ALL flying over 6 hours in the next contract.. stay tuned! This is a HUGE deal since a business class ticket costs $3000-4000 and a coach $1200 or so.

In conclusion you admit that your pay is subpar and that you are trying to get it raised. Please enlighten us as to how you are going about this.

part of it is coming on here on my Sunday morning and trying to sway people to see the light.. learn from our past experience and try to create some kind of unity within our profession, rather than a I'm in it for me attitude! I had the opportunity to take a few jobs before Gemini came along (I'd taken quite a lot of time off from flying and wasn't current for many companies), but I turned them down because they were with NON-UNION operations.. THAT IS SOMETHING, isnt' it??

Once again you are very vocal about other companies poor payscales but you are willing to work for a company with substantard payscales for the size of the equipment you fly. A first year reserve captain at Virgin America will make nearly as much as a 7 year reserve Gemini Captain and I bet the VX pilot has much better QOL. I'm sorry, I still contend that you are a hypocrite.

Gemini is not competing with SouthWest or Delta .. it competes with Centurion, Arrow and World.. VA is not the same thing for GOD's SAKE!

We don't get paid based on how heavy airplane is in this business! We get paid based on how much our airline makes $$$$ Learn this, and you'll understand why I'm NOT A HYPOCRITE!

Best regards

 

[FADEC]

Thanks for addressing my points this time. I appreciate that.

I know it comes of as hypocritical, but would my comments have any more merit if I were the 1st year FO at ASA, or a 20 year CA at UPS? My arguments stand on their own. WE DON'T NEED ANY MORE LCC's COMPETING WITH LEGACY CARRIERS with low pay and high productivity work rules! PERIOD!




If 15 years, 6000 hours, and 4 type ratings with 3 employers and a furlough from American is little.. then guilty!





World gets more money, but we do have a better work rules.. Work rules are part of the "pay equation" when a contract is made.



In my few months flying the line, I've travelled in Coach 3 times, and business class more than 10.. All flying into India and Africa (where 2/3 of our contracts are) require business class.. and the pilots are militant about changing that to ALL flying over 6 hours in the next contract.. stay tuned! This is a HUGE deal since a business class ticket costs $3000-4000 and a coach $1200 or so.



part of it is coming on here on my Sunday morning and trying to sway people to see the light.. learn from our past experience and try to create some kind of unity within our profession, rather than a I'm in it for me attitude! I had the opportunity to take a few jobs before Gemini came along (I'd taken quite a lot of time off from flying and wasn't current for many companies), but I turned them down because they were with NON-UNION operations.. THAT IS SOMETHING, isnt' it??



Gemini is not competing with SouthWest or Delta .. it competes with Centurion, Arrow and World.. VA is not the same thing for GOD's SAKE!

We don't get paid based on how heavy airplane is in this business! We get paid based on how much our airline makes $$$$ Learn this, and you'll understand why I'm NOT A HYPOCRITE!

Best regards

I agree that the last thing the industry needs right now is 2 more LCCs but it is a free market so what can you realistically do to stop them. Personally I think that Skybus won't last very long and Virgin America will have its hands full trying to deal with the existing carriers on already saturated transcon routes. How do you stop the spiral. I bet that after the USairways arbitration there will be many USairways ALPA pilots applying and excepting positions with Virgin America. Airline unions have become an industry joke.

 

[HA25]

Here we agree 100%..

Sorry if I come off like a hypocrite.. but in reality, who here isn't? We are all part of this problem to some degree.. and while my solution is to avoid non-union companies, some one else might be different.. and we're all running in different directions rather than in the same one.

We've got all the airlines, the ATA, the entire Republican party, and 1/2 the democratic party, and the entire consumers union against us... the only way to keep this profession a good one is unity, and the only way to do that is with unions (ALPA or otherwise).. or we're screwed!

 

[HA25]

btw.. I'm going to start a new LCC.. what do you think of our new interiors in my Avitar?

 

[crashpad]

BC, pull your cranium out of your arse and look the term up. A "guild" may have prevented you from being such a stand up guy at Blu

OMG, I thought you were dead! I remember when you used to have those classic exchanges with Ty Webb. When are you getting back in the ring again?

 

[Beetle007]

Ya, the younger ones. ALPA wants the age 60 to change. Excellent job of representing the minority, with agendas. Bastards!

Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on whats for dinner.

 

[Beetle007]

Ya, the younger ones. ALPA wants the age 60 to change. Excellent job of representing the minority, with agendas. Bastards!

Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on whats for dinner.

 

[Flybet3]

Share with us then, what are you doing to try to raise the bar?

How do you know I'm not raising hell trying to get our pay up higher at GAC and getting "involved"

again.. what are you doing besides throwing out personal insults at me?

Where are you raising hell? Have you gone to Gemini management and told them how you really feel about working for low wages? The only place you're raising hell is flight info, trying to feel like a big shot and trying to come of as someone that has more integrity and work ethic than everyone else. Give me a brale. What am I doing? I'm not applying at some of these places and enjoying my current job. That's all I can and will do. So the day you get off the keyboard and actually do something, you let me know.

 

[HA25]

Where are you raising hell? Have you gone to Gemini management and told them how you really feel about working for low wages? The only place you're raising hell is flight info, trying to feel like a big shot and trying to come of as someone that has more integrity and work ethic than everyone else. Give me a brale. What am I doing? I'm not applying at some of these places and enjoying my current job. That's all I can and will do. So the day you get off the keyboard and actually do something, you let me know.

for being a probie... I've done my share of gripe at GAC and to their DO and CP.. yes. That said, I too know how to vote with my feet, but while I'm here, I can do my best to make it a better lot for all of us.

btw.. FADEC and I have already made amends on this so I am not going to continue to debate the whole hypocrisy thing. I'm done with that subtopic here.

 

[T-Bags]

OMG, I thought you were dead! I remember when you used to have those classic exchanges with Ty Webb. When are you getting back in the ring again?

Nah, but unlike Ty, I'm willing to say out loud when my advisary is right . I'm still waiting for Ty to cowboy up and admit he was wrong (for YEARS). Those were some dark days and quite frankly I spent the "time away" building a better life outside aviation. It's liberating to say the least.

In keeping with the "kindler, gentler" theme, I'll say it again...TY IS RIGHT. It's time for ALL pilots to put aside past disputes, and move forward. We MUST develope industry wide standards, or the slide WILL continue. We consider ourselves highly trained professionals, but honestly there are folks out there willing to do it MUCH cheaper, and they ain't from India. Let's get a GUILD.

BTW, good job on the contract Citrus folks!! I hope it's everything you guys are looking for!:beer:

 

[Flybet3]

for being a probie... I've done my share of gripe at GAC and to their DO and CP.. yes. That said, I too know how to vote with my feet, but while I'm here, I can do my best to make it a better lot for all of us.

BLAH BLAH BLAH, now you're really just trying to be right, and not come of as a douch* bag. Keep fighting the good fight, I'm sure it'll get you no where.

 

[HA25]

BLAH BLAH BLAH, now you're really just trying to be right, and not come of as a douch* bag. Keep fighting the good fight, I'm sure it'll get you no where.

You're one of those people that give this board a bad name an why many are fleeing to other boards where they actually VERIFY if someone is in fact a pilot before they can post. I'm willing to bet that you're a troll who comes on here just to bust peoples balls that take my view.. even your "civilian whore" comment is very telling.

You are nothing but entertainment for me, so keep spouting off, go on..

 

[XBOEINGDRVR]

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. I can't wait to hear you cry for ALPA help when DAL staples you....

I will never cry ALPA, Im x airways, and I would never vote them on the property at JB. ALPA is not the answer to merges. My cousin ex TWA, ask him about ALPA merges... Get real

 

[HA25]

Here we go... train of shame!

http://video.msn.com/v/us/fv/msnbc/fv.htm??g=724021fe-002c-4a54-a2c9-106c7b680abc&f=00&fg=email

 

[Palomino]

Here we go... train of shame!

http://video.msn.com/v/us/fv/msnbc/fv.htm??g=724021fe-002c-4a54-a2c9-106c7b680abc&f=00&fg=email

nice jetway!
looks like a cattle yard contraption.
how appropriate.

 

[sleeves]

What are the mins at SkyBus?

Pretty low, I think like 65 for a capt. and 30 for an f/o.

 

[HighSpeedClimb]

Airline sells $10 flights

Bloomberg News
May. 22, 2007 10:35 AM
Skybus Airlines Inc. started service today with some tickets as low as $10 for a four-hour flight across the U.S. The new carrier's goal is to charge even less.

"We're sort of embarrassed our fares are as high as $10," Chief Executive Officer Bill Diffenderffer said in an interview.

Closely held Skybus is betting it can mimic the success of Ryanair Holdings Plc, Europe's biggest discount airline, which routinely gives away tickets while charging fees for baggage and selling merchandise and ad space in cabins. Diffenderffer says fares initially will make up 85 percent of revenue at Columbus, Ohio-based Skybus, and the ratio will fall from there.

Skybus is "really pushing low-cost, self-service to the limit," said Alan Sbarra of San Francisco-based Roach & Sbarra Consulting. "But if the fare is low enough, I think people will do what it takes."

The carrier, which began flying with 14 jets, promises to sell at least 10 seats per flight for $10, with the rest costing at least "50 percent below whatever was prevailing in the market before," Diffenderffer said yesterday.

Like Dublin-based Ryanair, Skybus will fly to smaller airports that charge lower landing fees and are less congested. The airline's goal is to get planes airborne with a new load of passengers after just 25 minutes on the ground.

Smaller Airports

Service started today from Columbus to Kansas City, Missouri; Portsmouth, New Hampshire, near Boston; and Burbank, California, a Los Angeles suburb. Flights begin in the next week to Fort Lauderdale, Florida; Greensboro, North Carolina; Oakland, California; and Bellingham, Washington, 78 miles north of Seattle.

Skybus's leased Airbus SAS A319 jets can carry 144 passengers, and the 65 new models being delivered starting next year hold 156 seats. With one class of service, Skybus is able to expand beyond the plane's usual 124-seat configuration.

Travelers have to book tickets and communicate with Skybus entirely online, saving the airline money on staff. Skybus also will shave maintenance and training expense by flying only one type of plane, the A319, and by offering a simple route network that doesn't allow passengers to make transfers.

Priority boarding, checking luggage and buying drinks or food onboard all come with separate fees. Skybus flight attendants also peddle products such as perfume, and the carrier sells advertising space inside the plane and on the fuselage, where a full-body ad costs about $500,000 a year.

Watching

"Skybus is very Ryanairesque," Dan Garton, executive vice president of marketing at American Airlines, said in an interview. "We're watching that carefully, and the question is, 'Is that a direction we want to go?'"

AMR Corp.'s American, the world's biggest carrier by traffic, unveiled a new Web site yesterday enabling travelers to see what services are available at each fare level. Garton said fliers can now "assess the tradeoffs," a possible first step toward Skybus's fee-for-service model.

Diffenderffer said Skybus has sold "a couple hundred thousand" tickets since they became available on April 24 and will fill more than 80 percent of its seats in the first month.

Analysts including Sbarra say Skybus faces competition at its Columbus home base from established low-fare carriers Southwest Airlines Co. and JetBlue Airways Corp., both of which have said domestic demand is weakening. With jet fuel surging 26 percent this year, Skybus's costs will be pressured, too.

Skybus also is bucking the move by most U.S. discount carriers to behave more like traditional airlines, bundling food and entertainment within the ticket price, said Michael Boyd, president of consulting firm Boyd Group in Evergreen, Colorado.

 

[GuppyWN]

Stock options are the carrot for many new airlines. Very few, SWA is actually the only one I can think of, actually make you a wealthy person.

I worked for a start-up commuter who offered stock options. I am willing to part with them now and sell them to the highest bidder. The bid starts at $.25 for all 200 options.

Stock options? What a crock. The stock option program at WN is THE most devisive issue that the pilot group has known. A guy hired in 1994 got stock options that were valued at one time at around $500,000. A guy hired in 1999 got options worth ZERO dollars.

Man what a terrible idea.

Gup

 

[GuppyWN]

I can see it now. The following is a transcript from 2009 Skybus pilot meeting with management seeking pay improvements.

Pilots: We need more pay. Comparible rates for the Airbus at XYZ is in the ballpark of $150 an hour.

MGMT: We don't compare ourselves to them. We do things differently, some would say better, here at Skybus. I'll give your guys $72 an hour.

Pilots: But boss we.

MGMT: NO BUTS! We are unique. We have a mission and that mission is being competitive because XYZ is breathing down our necks.

Pilots: I thought we didn't compare ourselves to them.

MGMT: Listen. We're on the ropes and when they've got us on the ropes they keep us on the ropes. I'll give you $68 an hour and stock options.

Pilots: Deal! Thanks for listening to our concerns Boss.

Gup

 

[HA25]

So true WN.. so true..

 

[LearLove]

"We need to educate the next generation on the importance of protecting the profession. [/quote


How about we start by FIXING what the CURRENT GENERATION (50-60 year old guys) has done. To start with: How many f'in airplane have you guys let be contracted out? Whats that about people living in glass houses???????

 

[Old School 737]

This industry screwed up long ago. Pilots should have made it a closed community like a Doctor. You have to be board certified and all that crap. No outsiders. Airlines wan't a pilot, you come to the association/board and get one. Wages would be higher and there would not be a pilot surplus because the current pilots would not allow it. Also pay would be basically the same for like equipment. Much higher and steady, less up and down. Would have helped if the industry was never deregulated as well.

 

[HA25]

This industry screwed up long ago. Pilots should have made it a closed community like a Doctor. You have to be board certified and all that crap. No outsiders. Airlines wan't a pilot, you come to the association/board and get one. Wages would be higher and there would not be a pilot surplus because the current pilots would not allow it. Also pay would be basically the same for like equipment. Much higher and steady, less up and down. Would have helped if the industry was never deregulated as well.

thanks for the constructive addition. Yeah, that's the guild idea that I and guys like Ty Webb have championed on here.. I still don't think it's too late. You'll never get everyone to join at first, but if we had a well capitalized effort to form a guild that over saw the certification of pilots over and above the feeble governmental FAA crap that a monkey can pass, we'd then a) be able to limit the entrants to this profession to those who "understand" the stakes, and b) be able to police our own if one were to step outside the bounds of reason and break a union contract, or accept a job with a profitable operation for below industry scale wages for that type of operation. It would be complicated with the advent of LCC's vs Legacies, and ACMI vs Mainline Cargo but over time we could bridge the gaps and repair the mess that was created by the managements of the past, and the anti union pilots that have flooded this profession over the years.