Arbitrator Rules Furloughed US Airways Pilots Will Lose Seniority

[aa73]

TWA folks: you all know that I have always supported binding arbitration during integrations.

That said, it has been widely stated from sources throughout the industry that a neutral arbitrator would have imposed something VERY SIMILAR - if not worse - than what we ended up with. So in the end, whether it's by arbitration or self-imposed integration, the result can sometimes be the same.

HOWEVER... you are absolutely correct in saying that the PROCESS of a nuetral is the fair way to do it. I've always agreed with that, even on my own union message board (and suffered the consequences from my fellow pilots for stating as much.... :uzi: !73

 

[Fly-n-hi]

Arbitrator Rules Furloughed US Airways Pilots will loose seniority???

This title is very misleading. The US Airways pilots didn't loose any seniority. The top guy is still at the top and the bottom guy is still at the bottom.

If you have been at an airline for 19 years and you are the bottom guy on the list you don't have 19 yrs of seniority...you have 19 yrs of longevity. There is a big difference. The bottom guy has no seniority no matter how long he's been there. Furloughed pilots have zero seniority. How can you have seniority if you don't have a job?

The East MEC wanted an integration based on longevity which would have made the East pilots disproportionately senior to the West guys. The arbitrator, and just about everybody else, said this was not a fair and equitable way to integrate.

Nothing changed for me, either. Before the integration I was in the low 80's percentile of the AWA list. Now I am still in the low 80's percentile of the new list. Where did I gain seniority?

 

[nwaredtail]

Arbitrator Rules Furloughed US Airways Pilots will loose seniority???

This title is very misleading. The US Airways pilots didn't loose any seniority. The top guy is still at the top and the bottom guy is still at the bottom.

If you have been at an airline for 19 years and you are the bottom guy on the list you don't have 19 yrs of seniority...you have 19 yrs of longevity. There is a big difference. The bottom guy has no seniority no matter how long he's been there. Furloughed pilots have zero seniority. How can you have seniority if you don't have a job?

The East MEC wanted an integration based on longevity which would have made the East pilots disproportionately senior to the West guys. The arbitrator, and just about everybody else, said this was not a fair and equitable way to integrate.

Nothing changed for me, either. Before the integration I was in the low 80's percentile of the AWA list. Now I am still in the low 80's percentile of the new list. Where did I gain seniority?

There you go with those pesky facts again. Maybe this will teach pilots to not go for the money grab and work together (yeah right) The best part was the arbitrator made it very clear to the AAA merger committee he would not be giving DOH but that was their only proposal.

As I watched RJ after RJ take off last week from PHL and LGA, THATS where the AAA Captain jobs are, given away in an effort to save their pension. THATS who the junior AAA guys should be angry at......

 

[Dogwood]

Without the West, you would have been liquidated. It doesn't matter that right now your side has the better yields or whatever, the point of all of this is that you would have shut down and someone else would have taken your Shuttle flying and your slots at LGA, DCA, etc. Gone. It is time for you cry babies to wake up and not be so snotty. You both accepted arbitration, and it didn't go your way. That is your fault.

Bye Bye--General Lee

I'm just glad someone jumped in this thread, who has a crystal ball, and was able to tell us exactly what was going to happen. That should clear up any discussion on who saved who. Give me a break.

This coming from a Delta empoyee, who works for a company that just came out of BK, and screwed many creditors out of a lot of money. Maybe one of those creditors should get a number on the Delta sen list since they saved you.

That award was a disgrace to our profession.

As I've stated before, the lack of fences was the main problem.

 

[glasspilot1]

TWA ALPA waived binding arbitration. We can rehash the details of that waiver, but TWA ALPA was between a rock & hard place. With TWA declaring Ch 11, they were in the process of filing an 1113 motion to abrogate TWA ALPA's right to binding arbitration.

Andy (by the way, I'm Andy too):

We're well aware of that. We're (ex TWA'ers) just saying the US east guys are complaining when they got a he!! of a lot better deal than we did. It's hard to hear them complain about a shi**y deal when they don't know what a shi**y deal really is!

 

[glasspilot1]

Could you please provide the following: Who was this mediator, when did he write what you quoted and what was the context, and cite your source.

Dude, as you know, these guys have to assume we were about to disappear to justify the sh*t sandwich they gave us! They WILL NOT ACCEPT any idea that we may have actually survived without AA because that would undermine their argument.

 

[TWA Dude]

As I watched RJ after RJ take off last week from PHL and LGA, THATS where the AAA Captain jobs are, given away in an effort to save their pension. THATS who the junior AAA guys should be angry at......

Wow. It's been over fifteen years since the RJ Revolution yet some people still misplace their anger. No, being angry at those RJs is not the right place because those RJs didn't steal mainline flying, IT WAS GIVEN TO THEM BY MAINLINE. And the same thing has taken place at every airline with codeshare partners.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

I'm just glad someone jumped in this thread, who has a crystal ball, and was able to tell us exactly what was going to happen. That should clear up any discussion on who saved who. Give me a break.

This coming from a Delta empoyee, who works for a company that just came out of BK, and screwed many creditors out of a lot of money. Maybe one of those creditors should get a number on the Delta sen list since they saved you.

That award was a disgrace to our profession.

As I've stated before, the lack of fences was the main problem.

You sound as though you feel you were entitled to something! The REAL problem was/continues to be how your MEC and your MC poorly managed you expectations!! You feel that you should be able to right the wrongs of the past and the back to back bankruptcies, poor management etc. on the backs and at the expense of the AWA pilots. This award was more than fair to the east considering the alternative!!!

WD

 

[Hpilot]

glasspilot1,

I know this is off subject. What kind of bike is that? At first glance I thought a Triumph Trident.

 

[Traderd]

glasspilot1,

I know this is off subject. What kind of bike is that? At first glance I thought a Triumph Trident.

I had the same question... except I believe it to be the infamous Suzuki GT500 "Water Buffalo". Smooth ride if I recall; two cycle water cooled triple.

 

[glasspilot1]

I had the same question... except I believe it to be the infamous Suzuki GT500 "Water Buffalo". Smooth ride if I recall; two cycle water cooled triple.

Traderd:

Your close! The "Water Buffalo" (unofficial nickname) was the GT750! Got the name from the fact it was the first modern water cooled motorcycle. I put the word "modern" in there because there were a few liquid cooled bikes in the early 1900's.

 

[Britpilot]

Now that, is a cool motorcycle. I hav'nt seen one in years, looks nice.

 

[aa73]

Cool bike... but not as cool as my Vespa PX150!

 

[glasspilot1]

Now that, is a cool motorcycle. I hav'nt seen one in years, looks nice.

(Apologies to the moderator as this thread is officially hijacked.)

Thanks! In the early to mid '70's 2 stroke road bikes were at their peak. But with the EPA regs in the late '70's the 4 strokes began to take over. But those 2 strokes had their day; they were quick and light. No valves to adjust. And with water cooling the GT750 engines would run 100,000 miles (with proper care), just like a 4 stroke.

Now, back to airline gossip!

 

[HighSpeedClimb]

You sound as though you feel you were entitled to something! The REAL problem was/continues to be how your MEC and your MC poorly managed you expectations!! You feel that you should be able to right the wrongs of the past and the back to back bankruptcies, poor management etc. on the backs and at the expense of the AWA pilots. This award was more than fair to the east considering the alternative!!!

WD

Why does everyone keep talking about the alternatives? Who's to say US was going to liquidate? UAL was interested at one time. I think someone else might still have come around had AWA not jumped on them. One thing is for sure, mergers suck!! What about a national seniority list???

 

[aa73]

(Apologies to the moderator as this thread is officially hijacked.)

Thanks! In the early to mid '70's 2 stroke road bikes were at their peak. But with the EPA regs in the late '70's the 4 strokes began to take over. But those 2 strokes had their day; they were quick and light. No valves to adjust. And with water cooling the GT750 engines would run 100,000 miles (with proper care), just like a 4 stroke.

Now, back to airline gossip!

The 2 strokes are actually supposed to be banned from sale in the near future. (EPA standards.) Like you said, it's a great motor, the only thing that's kind of a pain is having to fill up the oil tank every 400 miles or so. (the fuel and oil mixes automatically.)

Can't argue with 80mpg and a $3.50 fill up!

 

[Traderd]

Traderd:

Your close! The "Water Buffalo" (unofficial nickname) was the GT750! Got the name from the fact it was the first modern water cooled motorcycle. I put the word "modern" in there because there were a few liquid cooled bikes in the early 1900's.

You are correct Sir!. The 500 just slipped out somehow. I had a 1972 Kawasaki 750 two stroke triple. Not nearly so quiet or civilized as the Suzuki.

 

[glasspilot1]

the only thing that's kind of a pain is having to fill up the oil tank every 400 miles or so. (the fuel and oil mixes automatically.)

Can't argue with 80mpg and a $3.50 fill up!

Towards the end of the 2 stroke era all the bikes had pretty sophisticated oil injection systems that got us away from the need to mix oil on a gas fill up. Greatly reduced the exhaust smoke too, because the oil pump was metered with the throttle, so at idle almost no oil was being burned.

As far as the MPG; the large 2 strokes sucked gas pretty bad. My 750 gets maybe 35 to 40 MPG, that Kaw 750 was even worse.

 

[aa73]

Towards the end of the 2 stroke era all the bikes had pretty sophisticated oil injection systems that got us away from the need to mix oil on a gas fill up. Greatly reduced the exhaust smoke too, because the oil pump was metered with the throttle, so at idle almost no oil was being burned.

As far as the MPG; the large 2 strokes sucked gas pretty bad. My 750 gets maybe 35 to 40 MPG, that Kaw 750 was even worse.

Well, yeah, because it was a 750... mine's only a pip squeak 150! (still does about 65mph thanks to a nice little aftermarket pipe..... and sounds like a bad a$$ lawn mower to boot.)

p.s. check your pm's, glasspilot

 

[stlflyguy]

A few things regarding the TWA/AA deal:

1) TWA's bankruptcy was a condition of the AA/TWA Asset Purchase Agreement. TWA was not in bankruptcy when the deal was announced.

2) There was no way that AA was going to allow a complete staple of all TWA pilots and then a reshuffling of seats. AA needed Captains to fly the TWA aircraft and it was going to do it the cheapest way possible....by letting enough TWA captains keep their seats.

3) AA agreed to "use its reasonable best efforts" in negotiating with APA to "secure a fair and equitable process for the integration of seniority" and to adopt any procedures jointly agreed to by the two unions." There wasn't any procedure agreed to by BOTH unions. APA had Supp CC worked up and approved with AA in July of '01, long before the "facilitated" discussions had ended.

4) Any AA pilot who says that the APA should have "stapled the TWA pilots like they did the OZ pilots" would have done just fine by me. Staple me "like the OZ pilots".....with DOH and fences.

stlflyguy