Arbitrator Rules Furloughed US Airways Pilots Will Lose Seniority

[Andy]

We (TWA) would have loved binding arbitration. Anything would have been better than what we were made to choke on from the APA.

TWA ALPA waived binding arbitration. We can rehash the details of that waiver, but TWA ALPA was between a rock & hard place. With TWA declaring Ch 11, they were in the process of filing an 1113 motion to abrogate TWA ALPA's right to binding arbitration.

 

[TWA Dude]

TWA ALPA waived binding arbitration. We can rehash the details of that waiver, but TWA ALPA was between a rock & hard place. With TWA declaring Ch 11, they were in the process of filing an 1113 motion to abrogate TWA ALPA's right to binding arbitration.

All true, but I don't see your point. Had the APA been interested in a fair integration they would've negotiated an agreement or voluntarily agreed to binding arbitration. They don't get to impose an integration and then claim it's "fair".

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Without the West, you would have been liquidated. It doesn't matter that right now your side has the better yields or whatever, the point of all of this is that you would have shut down and someone else would have taken your Shuttle flying and your slots at LGA, DCA, etc. Gone. It is time for you cry babies to wake up and not be so snotty. You both accepted arbitration, and it didn't go your way. That is your fault.

Bye Bye--General Lee

For once I agree with the General

 

[Andy]

All true, but I don't see your point. Had the APA been interested in a fair integration they would've negotiated an agreement or voluntarily agreed to binding arbitration. They don't get to impose an integration and then claim it's "fair".

The problem with a fair integration is that fair is in the eye of the beholder. I've yet to see an integration that has been considered fair by both sides ... and yes, we're talking AFTER binding arbitration.

You have to play the hand that you're dealt.
In TWA ALPA's case, the best they were able to do is extract a letter from American stating that it promised to "use its reasonable "best efforts with APA to secure a fair and equitable process for the integration of seniority." That was the VERY BEST that TWA ALPA was going to get and they played their hand to the best possible conclusion. Had the 1113 process occurred and abrogated TWA ALPA's rights, you can bet that the integration would have looked much more like a staple job.
In U East's case, they severely overplayed their hand. Instead of going for some reasonable credit for time on property, they went for DOH for everyone, including furloughees. Had they played their hand a bit more reasonably, the pilots at AWA would now be howling over the injustice of the integration.

 

[Splert]

Not true. There was a promisory note due later in January, 2001, but that would likely have been refinanced. TWA was in poor financial shape, to be sure, but to say it was 24 hours from liquidation is unsubstantiated and specious. The former TWA MEC Chairman and member of the BOD (IOW, somebody who knows a lot more about this than you) has stated that there was another plan for TWA had the AA buyout not been announced. TWA entered bankruptcy on January 10, 2001, for one reason: to accede to Carty's plan.

Sure...

The Federal Mediator didn't buy AWRF's or your claim when he wrote:

It is indisputable that, at the time American announced its offer to purchase assets of TWA and offer employment to TWA’s employees in January 2001, TWA was in extremis – only hours away from a complete shutdown -- which would have left TWA’s pilots and other employees unemployed. It is also indisputable that, at that time, American Airlines was the only suitor proposing to purchase more than piecemeal assets of TWA (but no employees) and to offer continued employment to TWA’s pilots and other employees.

 

[TWA Dude]

I've yet to see an integration that has been considered fair by both sides ... and yes, we're talking AFTER binding arbitration.

I agree -- that's why I harp on wanting the process to be fair. I can't think of a more fair process than ALPA Merger Policy currently dictates.

 

[TWA Dude]

The Federal Mediator didn't buy AWRF's or your claim when he wrote:

Could you please provide the following: Who was this mediator, when did he write what you quoted and what was the context, and cite your source.

 

[F9 A319]

Sorry if this is already posted somewhere but, could someone post a link to the merged seniority list?

Thanks.

 

[Green]

Without the West, you would have been liquidated. It doesn't matter that right now your side has the better yields or whatever, the point of all of this is that you would have shut down and someone else would have taken your Shuttle flying and your slots at LGA, DCA, etc. Gone. It is time for you cry babies to wake up and not be so snotty. You both accepted arbitration, and it didn't go your way. That is your fault.

Bye Bye--General Lee

Well put. All this riteous indignation from the east is getting old. Pretty immature for such a senior pilot group. Apparently nobody briefed the east on the definition of binding arbitration. The funny thing is that they fully expected to staple virtually every AWA pilot. Although they did offer us 1 year of furlough protection. What a f-ing joke. Talk about unrealistic expectations!

 

[Whine Lover]

In the words of the great Ren Hoek : "Ahhh...Who CARES Stimpy? WHO REALLY CARES ?"

- Get rid of your "McMansion" on the Interest Only Loan you can't really afford.

- Sell the cool Boat that sucks money from your pocket and sits in the yard 358 days of the year supposedly impressing Friends and Relatives.

- Sell the needy Children for Medical Experiments.

- Tell the Wife to STFU and START BLOWING (again) ...or Leave.

- Find a NEW PATH in Life.The current one seems to be strewn with Feces...


Or, perhaps it is EASIER to repeat the "Patterns of Failure" that Govern most of us? ( Yours Truly Included ). Let's always blame the OTHER GUY. NOT.

East-West...Whatever.

Deal with it and shut up. Quit if you don't like it. But leave the other Guy in your Cockpit alone. Go have a beer ( together)...It's not THEIR Fault.

They have the same Problems you might have. The cards just fell differently, ON THIS HAND, and the Game is NOT over.

NO matter HOW it went ( or continues to go) down...The Man you are trying to stab in the back, whom you may feel has stabbed you in the back, is the ONLY MAN WHO WILL EVER OFFER YOU A HAND UP IN THIS TWISTED GAME.

WORD.


YKW

 

[aa73]

TWA folks: you all know that I have always supported binding arbitration during integrations.

That said, it has been widely stated from sources throughout the industry that a neutral arbitrator would have imposed something VERY SIMILAR - if not worse - than what we ended up with. So in the end, whether it's by arbitration or self-imposed integration, the result can sometimes be the same.

HOWEVER... you are absolutely correct in saying that the PROCESS of a nuetral is the fair way to do it. I've always agreed with that, even on my own union message board (and suffered the consequences from my fellow pilots for stating as much.... :uzi: !73

 

[Fly-n-hi]

Arbitrator Rules Furloughed US Airways Pilots will loose seniority???

This title is very misleading. The US Airways pilots didn't loose any seniority. The top guy is still at the top and the bottom guy is still at the bottom.

If you have been at an airline for 19 years and you are the bottom guy on the list you don't have 19 yrs of seniority...you have 19 yrs of longevity. There is a big difference. The bottom guy has no seniority no matter how long he's been there. Furloughed pilots have zero seniority. How can you have seniority if you don't have a job?

The East MEC wanted an integration based on longevity which would have made the East pilots disproportionately senior to the West guys. The arbitrator, and just about everybody else, said this was not a fair and equitable way to integrate.

Nothing changed for me, either. Before the integration I was in the low 80's percentile of the AWA list. Now I am still in the low 80's percentile of the new list. Where did I gain seniority?

 

[nwaredtail]

Arbitrator Rules Furloughed US Airways Pilots will loose seniority???

This title is very misleading. The US Airways pilots didn't loose any seniority. The top guy is still at the top and the bottom guy is still at the bottom.

If you have been at an airline for 19 years and you are the bottom guy on the list you don't have 19 yrs of seniority...you have 19 yrs of longevity. There is a big difference. The bottom guy has no seniority no matter how long he's been there. Furloughed pilots have zero seniority. How can you have seniority if you don't have a job?

The East MEC wanted an integration based on longevity which would have made the East pilots disproportionately senior to the West guys. The arbitrator, and just about everybody else, said this was not a fair and equitable way to integrate.

Nothing changed for me, either. Before the integration I was in the low 80's percentile of the AWA list. Now I am still in the low 80's percentile of the new list. Where did I gain seniority?

There you go with those pesky facts again. Maybe this will teach pilots to not go for the money grab and work together (yeah right) The best part was the arbitrator made it very clear to the AAA merger committee he would not be giving DOH but that was their only proposal.

As I watched RJ after RJ take off last week from PHL and LGA, THATS where the AAA Captain jobs are, given away in an effort to save their pension. THATS who the junior AAA guys should be angry at......

 

[Dogwood]

Without the West, you would have been liquidated. It doesn't matter that right now your side has the better yields or whatever, the point of all of this is that you would have shut down and someone else would have taken your Shuttle flying and your slots at LGA, DCA, etc. Gone. It is time for you cry babies to wake up and not be so snotty. You both accepted arbitration, and it didn't go your way. That is your fault.

Bye Bye--General Lee

I'm just glad someone jumped in this thread, who has a crystal ball, and was able to tell us exactly what was going to happen. That should clear up any discussion on who saved who. Give me a break.

This coming from a Delta empoyee, who works for a company that just came out of BK, and screwed many creditors out of a lot of money. Maybe one of those creditors should get a number on the Delta sen list since they saved you.

That award was a disgrace to our profession.

As I've stated before, the lack of fences was the main problem.

 

[glasspilot1]

TWA ALPA waived binding arbitration. We can rehash the details of that waiver, but TWA ALPA was between a rock & hard place. With TWA declaring Ch 11, they were in the process of filing an 1113 motion to abrogate TWA ALPA's right to binding arbitration.

Andy (by the way, I'm Andy too):

We're well aware of that. We're (ex TWA'ers) just saying the US east guys are complaining when they got a he!! of a lot better deal than we did. It's hard to hear them complain about a shi**y deal when they don't know what a shi**y deal really is!

 

[glasspilot1]

Could you please provide the following: Who was this mediator, when did he write what you quoted and what was the context, and cite your source.

Dude, as you know, these guys have to assume we were about to disappear to justify the sh*t sandwich they gave us! They WILL NOT ACCEPT any idea that we may have actually survived without AA because that would undermine their argument.

 

[TWA Dude]

As I watched RJ after RJ take off last week from PHL and LGA, THATS where the AAA Captain jobs are, given away in an effort to save their pension. THATS who the junior AAA guys should be angry at......

Wow. It's been over fifteen years since the RJ Revolution yet some people still misplace their anger. No, being angry at those RJs is not the right place because those RJs didn't steal mainline flying, IT WAS GIVEN TO THEM BY MAINLINE. And the same thing has taken place at every airline with codeshare partners.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

I'm just glad someone jumped in this thread, who has a crystal ball, and was able to tell us exactly what was going to happen. That should clear up any discussion on who saved who. Give me a break.

This coming from a Delta empoyee, who works for a company that just came out of BK, and screwed many creditors out of a lot of money. Maybe one of those creditors should get a number on the Delta sen list since they saved you.

That award was a disgrace to our profession.

As I've stated before, the lack of fences was the main problem.

You sound as though you feel you were entitled to something! The REAL problem was/continues to be how your MEC and your MC poorly managed you expectations!! You feel that you should be able to right the wrongs of the past and the back to back bankruptcies, poor management etc. on the backs and at the expense of the AWA pilots. This award was more than fair to the east considering the alternative!!!

WD

 

[Hpilot]

glasspilot1,

I know this is off subject. What kind of bike is that? At first glance I thought a Triumph Trident.

 

[Traderd]

glasspilot1,

I know this is off subject. What kind of bike is that? At first glance I thought a Triumph Trident.

I had the same question... except I believe it to be the infamous Suzuki GT500 "Water Buffalo". Smooth ride if I recall; two cycle water cooled triple.

 

[glasspilot1]

I had the same question... except I believe it to be the infamous Suzuki GT500 "Water Buffalo". Smooth ride if I recall; two cycle water cooled triple.

Traderd:

Your close! The "Water Buffalo" (unofficial nickname) was the GT750! Got the name from the fact it was the first modern water cooled motorcycle. I put the word "modern" in there because there were a few liquid cooled bikes in the early 1900's.

 

[Britpilot]

Now that, is a cool motorcycle. I hav'nt seen one in years, looks nice.

 

[aa73]

Cool bike... but not as cool as my Vespa PX150!

 

[glasspilot1]

Now that, is a cool motorcycle. I hav'nt seen one in years, looks nice.

(Apologies to the moderator as this thread is officially hijacked.)

Thanks! In the early to mid '70's 2 stroke road bikes were at their peak. But with the EPA regs in the late '70's the 4 strokes began to take over. But those 2 strokes had their day; they were quick and light. No valves to adjust. And with water cooling the GT750 engines would run 100,000 miles (with proper care), just like a 4 stroke.

Now, back to airline gossip!

 

[HighSpeedClimb]

You sound as though you feel you were entitled to something! The REAL problem was/continues to be how your MEC and your MC poorly managed you expectations!! You feel that you should be able to right the wrongs of the past and the back to back bankruptcies, poor management etc. on the backs and at the expense of the AWA pilots. This award was more than fair to the east considering the alternative!!!

WD

Why does everyone keep talking about the alternatives? Who's to say US was going to liquidate? UAL was interested at one time. I think someone else might still have come around had AWA not jumped on them. One thing is for sure, mergers suck!! What about a national seniority list???

 

[aa73]

(Apologies to the moderator as this thread is officially hijacked.)

Thanks! In the early to mid '70's 2 stroke road bikes were at their peak. But with the EPA regs in the late '70's the 4 strokes began to take over. But those 2 strokes had their day; they were quick and light. No valves to adjust. And with water cooling the GT750 engines would run 100,000 miles (with proper care), just like a 4 stroke.

Now, back to airline gossip!

The 2 strokes are actually supposed to be banned from sale in the near future. (EPA standards.) Like you said, it's a great motor, the only thing that's kind of a pain is having to fill up the oil tank every 400 miles or so. (the fuel and oil mixes automatically.)

Can't argue with 80mpg and a $3.50 fill up!

 

[Traderd]

Traderd:

Your close! The "Water Buffalo" (unofficial nickname) was the GT750! Got the name from the fact it was the first modern water cooled motorcycle. I put the word "modern" in there because there were a few liquid cooled bikes in the early 1900's.

You are correct Sir!. The 500 just slipped out somehow. I had a 1972 Kawasaki 750 two stroke triple. Not nearly so quiet or civilized as the Suzuki.

 

[glasspilot1]

the only thing that's kind of a pain is having to fill up the oil tank every 400 miles or so. (the fuel and oil mixes automatically.)

Can't argue with 80mpg and a $3.50 fill up!

Towards the end of the 2 stroke era all the bikes had pretty sophisticated oil injection systems that got us away from the need to mix oil on a gas fill up. Greatly reduced the exhaust smoke too, because the oil pump was metered with the throttle, so at idle almost no oil was being burned.

As far as the MPG; the large 2 strokes sucked gas pretty bad. My 750 gets maybe 35 to 40 MPG, that Kaw 750 was even worse.

 

[aa73]

Towards the end of the 2 stroke era all the bikes had pretty sophisticated oil injection systems that got us away from the need to mix oil on a gas fill up. Greatly reduced the exhaust smoke too, because the oil pump was metered with the throttle, so at idle almost no oil was being burned.

As far as the MPG; the large 2 strokes sucked gas pretty bad. My 750 gets maybe 35 to 40 MPG, that Kaw 750 was even worse.

Well, yeah, because it was a 750... mine's only a pip squeak 150! (still does about 65mph thanks to a nice little aftermarket pipe..... and sounds like a bad a$$ lawn mower to boot.)

p.s. check your pm's, glasspilot

 

[stlflyguy]

A few things regarding the TWA/AA deal:

1) TWA's bankruptcy was a condition of the AA/TWA Asset Purchase Agreement. TWA was not in bankruptcy when the deal was announced.

2) There was no way that AA was going to allow a complete staple of all TWA pilots and then a reshuffling of seats. AA needed Captains to fly the TWA aircraft and it was going to do it the cheapest way possible....by letting enough TWA captains keep their seats.

3) AA agreed to "use its reasonable best efforts" in negotiating with APA to "secure a fair and equitable process for the integration of seniority" and to adopt any procedures jointly agreed to by the two unions." There wasn't any procedure agreed to by BOTH unions. APA had Supp CC worked up and approved with AA in July of '01, long before the "facilitated" discussions had ended.

4) Any AA pilot who says that the APA should have "stapled the TWA pilots like they did the OZ pilots" would have done just fine by me. Staple me "like the OZ pilots".....with DOH and fences.

stlflyguy