Latest on UAL recalls

[Andy]

The word around TK is newhires the spring of 08, as far as they've heard. The capt was a check airman-I imagine he would know the latest solid info.

That was the official forecast prior to starting to go back up the list. I think that they were expecting more to say yes on the way up. I estimated 20%, and if the 10% number that I got from the UAL pilot forum is correct, they'll be out of furloughees before summer. I won't be surprised to newhire classes in the fall - I bet they're scrambling to fire up the newhire process.

 

[Varig]

That is good news for everybody who wants to get on with United!!!!:beer:

 

[rumrunner300]

That was the official forecast prior to starting to go back up the list. I think that they were expecting more to say yes on the way up. I estimated 20%, and if the 10% number that I got from the UAL pilot forum is correct, they'll be out of furloughees before summer. I won't be surprised to newhire classes in the fall - I bet they're scrambling to fire up the newhire process.

I'm not so sure that the acceptance rate will be that dismal all the way up the list. The first ones given the do or die letters have a full year of first year pay and probation left which can be taxing to anyone who was originally hired 6 years ago. As we go up the list the first year pay equation will be less of an issue and I would expect the acceptance to improve, especially if the 67 spots remain available.

 

[Andy]

I'm not so sure that the acceptance rate will be that dismal all the way up the list. The first ones given the do or die letters have a full year of first year pay and probation left which can be taxing to anyone who was originally hired 6 years ago. As we go up the list the first year pay equation will be less of an issue and I would expect the acceptance to improve, especially if the 67 spots remain available.

That's possible. My forecast had been for 20% on the way back up.
I expect to see the recall rate decrease as we work our way back up the list; once you get below 8000, a lot of those guys could have gotten a 76 IF they put in for recall in a more junior class. I think that UAL is/was their safety net in this crazy business.
I think that you're looking at a lot of guys who are at FedEx, UPS, and Southwest. Many of them are already on comparable pay longevity to what they would have at UAL.

Anyway, time will tell.

 

[GuppyPuppy]

What is the prime issue at JB that makes it unpleasant? Is it something you think will be better at UAL?
This is not flamebait: I just don't follow what goes on at JB, and am curious.

In no particular order my issues with J B are:

1. Pay. E190 pay has brought down the industry so that other airlines have closely matched J B's rates. The pay issue has been "looked at" and captains got a measely $4/hr raise when we had been expecting much more. Pay was looked at again after this raise and we were given a pay comparison to different airlines. The airlines that were used...NW, DL, US E190 rates and NW DC9 rates. We were still at the bottom, but close to the other airlines' E190 rates. However, those rates were "negotiated" under a concessionary contract with bankrupt carriers (and J B set the benchmark). Conveniently left out were Airtran, Hawaiin, Midwest 717 rates, Frontier's A318 rates, United's 737-500 rates, etc... Heck, even Dash 8 Q400 pilots at HORIZON make more than J b's E190 pilots.
2. Benefits. They are expensive and the premiums and deductibles are going up each year. The company is seriously considering HSA's for 2008 which would drive up my medical expenses even further.
3. Retirement. Stock options are worth a big fat goose egg. 3% match on the 401k is much less than the regional I used to work for. They do have a decent CSPP, though.
4. Lack of west coast domiciles. I'm a westie and the commute isn't fun. Sick of Kew Gardens (and New Yorkers in general).
5. No union (yet). If UAL is making money when the contract negotiations start, and even if they're not, I believe that we will see significant improvement to the current contract. At J B, we just had a "Pilot Compensation Group" look at our current pay/benefits and they suggested only a very modest increase (management didn't even give us that!). In my opinion, the pilots have no say in what management decides to give us. I'd rather have an elected group NEGOTIATE a contract for me.
6. Relative age of the pilot group. Was told recently by a manager that the current average age of the pilot group is 40. Since I'm older than that, I doubt that I'd see myself in the top 40% of A320 captains until my very last year at the company, maybe not even then.
7. Reserve. Ask any J B pilot. Not fun. At least at United you can get the long call or afford to live within a reasonable driving distance of, say, DEN.
8. Medical issues. If I lose my Class I medical, but could still hold a Class II, I could still make decent money at United as a 777/747 F/O. At J B, I'd never break about $75,000/yr.

On the flip side....J B may grow to over 400 aircraft in the next 10 years. My seniority would do well there. I also like the PBS and ease of trades/drops. I enjoy the guys/gals I fly with more than at United. United could merge and I could find myself out on the street again.

I don't have a crystal ball. Right now, these are some of the reasons that I'm looking at going back. There is word that J B management might be looking again at my pay and adjusting it upward. I'd like to find out what they have in mind before I get my last call at UA. At this point I haven't made up my mind what I will do. Rest assured, whichever decision I make, it will be the wrong one.

Cheers!

GP

 

[BigRed1]

Great info...I picked some UAL line guys' brains and found this out, hopefully I got it accurately...

The word around TK is newhires the spring of 08, as far as they've heard. The capt was a check airman-I imagine he would know the latest solid info.

I believe he is correct. They have already announced the next recall class for March 26th of 20 pilots. That recall class will likely take us down another 100 recalls to around 600 remaining. So...Spring '07 is very unlikely, and Spring, '08 seems logical. For all you pilots who want to interview, get your stuff in this fall. I'm sure they will make an announcement about that later this year as they run out of the pool.

Pay raises seem highly unlikely till 09; even though there are some folks are wanting to change that, it doesn't seem to be a realistic movement.

I agree about early pay raises. It is not gonna happen. But, this Spring, and hopefully every year after at higher levels, we will be receiving our first profit sharing checks. The pilot contract states we can make up to an additional 10% of our annual salary in profit sharing. We also have "success Sharing" based on performance stats like on time arrivals and CASM, which is only 1% which we have been getting every quarter. Every little bit helps. Another wild card on when the new hire ramps up is the amount and length of Military LOAs. We have quite a bit that will be coming back over the next few years.

The latest contract has the 'bus' and 300 fleets as low cost carrier type fleets, and have some contractual differences such as: The pilots of those fleets are not getting paid for canceled flights, nor are pay protected for a reassignment if it's less time that the original pairing or "ID". Ouch to that one....

I am on the LCC, not the wide bodies stuff. I do not follow their cancellation pay, but I do know that after the 20th of the month, all trip pay is protected for every pilot. You can never get less than 70 hours unless you alter your CALREC after the 20th which puts you below the guarantee. The whole pay protection thing is a definite bone of contention among pilots, and it will be a subject of priority on the next contract. We do get 100% credit for dead-heading though. Not so at some other airlines.

9 year f/o was about 50% on the DEN 300 list, and had a 93 hour line (didn't catch the number of days off). He could hold 757 f/o everywhere but SEA.

That is accurate. I have about the same seniority. That will get you a line holder 767 in places like LAX and SFO. Reserve everywhere else. The 300 is definitely junior to the A320 these days. I have 40 under me in DEN on the bus and am on the fence of line holder/reserve. I would be middle line holder in LAX and ORD and SFO. JFK 320 is still senior as they only have about 50 pilots there and 9 years will be senior reserve. I spoke to a March '98 hire last week and he was 90 out of 170 in Denver on the 300. As for days off with a 93 hour line, unless you get lucky and receive some really productive pairings, you will be at about 12-14 days off at 93 hours. It is just not possible to get 17 days off because you would have to fly the remaining 13 days at more than 7 hours each day, and that just doesn't happen here too often, especially on the 300 because of shorter segment length. We hope to get that changed as well. We would all love to see 20 hour 3 day trips and end up with 18 days off per month. Most trip average 4.5 to 6.5 hours per day.

Trading trips not so easy on PBS because of the lack of reserve coverage. The big pick is your best chance. Reserves don't have such a bad deal with the same info provided in the preceding few posts.

PBS has worked pretty well for a lot of folks. The problem has been with the amount of coverage available, and the relative lack of efficiency of some trip pairings, resulting in PBS being unable to award the "preferences" that PBS was designed to help with. With tight coverage, the bottom half has not been getting even half of what they ask for because the system simply cannot accommodate their requests. The best way to drop a trip is via the Big Pick or as most of us call it, the Big Drop done on the 25th of each month before open trip trading opens each month on the 27th. Just get rid of it and then pick something else up later in the month. As staffing improves, trip drop and trade avalability will improve. Duh. The question is, when. We always seems to be just a bit behing the power curve.

Our VP of flight OPS Hank Krakowski has pledged to increase staffing to better help the quality of life for the reserves as well as line holding pilots who will be more able to receive their wishes inputed to PBS. Our previous VP, Steve Forte was fired last summer after we canceled over 350 flights in one weekend for lack of pilots. That was a fairly frequent occurrence, albeit not to that degree, and it finally cost him his job.

Neither crew member was complaining or hating life...both class A guys with realistic expectations, but know changes need to happen in 09.

Well said, and so true.


What it really boils down to: You still get crew meals but you still have to wear a hat. That's important stuff, there. Thanks for the info- still deciding--on leave, that is... Oh- and yeah, you can put a lateral in while on leave...Mr. Neil entered it on my behalf.

Crew meals...It is one one those things at UAL that is quite interesting. We take it for granted. I told an American pilot our choices and he about flipped. His answer to me was..."Sheez, we get a choice of cheese or pepperoni." Our airline still offers us about 8 different classes of meals ranging from Kosher, low-fat, regular, Muslim, Hindu, salad, lighter choice, vegetarian, and others I cannot recall right now. We get fed twice on any flight over 5 hours. A full spread. Now that being said, it is still airline food, and some meals are better than others.

As for the hat, yes we still have that traditional airline look, but I can tell you that many do not bother with the hat. No one really gets in trouble for it so if you don't want to wear one, don't. I still follow the rules the best I can and feel it adds a lot to the complete and official look of the pilot. We have the bomber jacket now as well as an option. The pilots who wear the bomber jacket and no hat to me look a bit sloppy, but I do not blame them for their lack of attention to appearance. We have been beaten down pretty good, and that has shown up in the overall effort make sure that shirt is extra crisp and those shoes are nice and shiny. I am resisting that mentality, as I still feel proud to call myself a United pilot and want to reflect that pride in my profession by looking sharp.

OK, that is all my corny opinion, and has no relative importance to "UAL Recall Info." Sorry for the sidebar.

If you had had in your request for Denver, you would have received it last week. You'll get the next one. Mr. Neil is a stand up guy. He has been very attentive to the recalls and furloughs. Believe it or not, we still take care of our own, and Mr. Neil is an extention of our pilot group's overall general view that we want to take care of you guys and gals and help you when ever we can. I guess that is why I just spent a half and hour writing on this form. I want to help you all make a very difficult, informed, and no doubt life-changing decision.

One more note: All returning pilots are now type-rated in their respective aircraft during their initial transition. That is a nice perk. Although, I imagine a bit more stressful if you are coming from a 300 or RJ to a 320 having never flown it before.

All of you went through a very stringent hiring program. You were United pilots. We want to make you United pilots again. But...We want you to WANT to be a United pilot. This airline will be more successful because of that.

Regards,

BigRed1

 

[TacoTurbine]

Wow, great post Red. Thanks to all of you folks for giving us a window on what we're going back to - it really helps, especially for those still on the fence. (I'm not one of them - see you later this year)

Taco

Oh yeah, I like the hat too.

 

[wings421]

Does anyone have the link to a copy of the United contract?

 

[Powda5]

Powda5:


If you do not already have a bid in for Denver, do it ASAP and you may have it before you leave training upon your return. I assume you can put in a lateral request while on a LOA?

Big Red, I had DEN put in after Feb 5. When does the next award come out? Thanks...

 

[BigRed1]

Powda5:


If you do not already have a bid in for Denver, do it ASAP and you may have it before you leave training upon your return. I assume you can put in a lateral request while on a LOA?

Big Red, I had DEN put in after Feb 5. When does the next award come out? Thanks...

The last bid closed the end of January and was posted in early February I believe. It is effective July of 2007 and had 5 unfilled Den 300s. The next bid has not yet been posted, but if it follows the typical pattern, there will be another bid posted the end of February, posted results in early March with an effective date of August. If you get Denver on that bid, you could be lateraled a few months early and get back by May or June depending on the number of others who want to transfer in early as well. It will also depend on how short they are in your current domicile and whether or not they can release you to your new domicile.

Of course, all those unfilled vacancies may go to returning furlough assignments in the near future and there may be nothing left on this next round.

I wish you the best of luck getting what you want as soon as possible.

Regards,

BigRed1

 

[Boz]

BigRed1,

Great information, thanks for sharing and taking the time to reply. I just hope that some of the furloughees that are returning in the coming months will take the time to post what is happening with UAL...

 

[dudemize]

Does anyone have the link to a copy of the United contract?

http://airlinepilotcentral.com/option,com_docman/task,cat_view/gid,16/Itemid,61.html

 

[Boz]

If you are a current or furloughed ALPA member then goto:

http://crewroom.alpa.org/ual/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=2267

and you will have to put in your ALPA number and PW, then proceed to document and you can view the entire contract.

 

[W8N4UAL]

Got a call from Bob Neal Thur. night. A320 out of IAD for me. I bid every fleet out of ORD as my first choice. I'm close to the bottom in the 2/26 class.

Hopefully a lateral back to ORD won't be too far off...

W8N for another 8 days
DOH 07/09/01

 

[Puppy]

W8N,
what's your seniority number? Do you know what the assignment block looked like for the entire 2/26 class?

Puppy

 

[GuppyPuppy]

What is the prime issue at JB that makes it unpleasant? Is it something you think will be better at UAL?
This is not flamebait: I just don't follow what goes on at JB, and am curious.

Huggyu2 and Varig-

In addition to the reasons stated on my previous post, I would like to add the Valentine's Day Massacre to my list of reasons as to why I am not liking working for JB right now.

Crew services has no idea where ANY crew is located. Some pilots are taking it upon themselves to round up a crew and fly a flight, further screwing up efforts by CrewServices to locate and schedule crews. Management has canceled ALL E190 flying for Sat/Sun/Mon because it was easier to stop the entire operation than to figure out where people and planes were (even though crews and airplanes are available). So many other things have happened over the last 5 days that make it embarrassing to be employed by JB.

I've been through other storms with United and it seemed like they were back on their feet within a couple of days. Here we are on V-Day + 5 and they still haven't figured it out.

 

[W8N4UAL]

W8N,
what's your seniority number? Do you know what the assignment block looked like for the entire 2/26 class?

Puppy

I don't know my seniority number. I have never referenced it. I know there are only 12 people on the property junior to me if that helps. I don't know how many of them will join me on 2/26 and I don't know the rest of the assignment block. Sorry...I was more interested in confirming BP-3's for the commute (furoughed from ORD) and figuring out where I was supposed to be when next week.

W8N

 

[Puppy]

W8N,
I checked the July 06 Seniority List on the UAL MEC website...your number is between 8640-8646. Hard to believe ORD was too hard to get from the recall bid....guess IAD is going more junior now.

 

[Varig]

Huggyu2 and Varig-

In addition to the reasons stated on my previous post, I would like to add the Valentine's Day Massacre to my list of reasons as to why I am not liking working for JB right now.

Crew services has no idea where ANY crew is located. Some pilots are taking it upon themselves to round up a crew and fly a flight, further screwing up efforts by CrewServices to locate and schedule crews. Management has canceled ALL E190 flying for Sat/Sun/Mon because it was easier to stop the entire operation than to figure out where people and planes were (even though crews and airplanes are available). So many other things have happened over the last 5 days that make it embarrassing to be employed by JB.

I've been through other storms with United and it seemed like they were back on their feet within a couple of days. Here we are on V-Day + 5 and they still haven't figured it out.

Wow, I didn't know things could get that messy in the states. I have gone through that down here lately and it has not been fun. One of the reasons why I want to leave is because of that and flying here after the accident has been nuts for passengers and crew members.

 

[Powda5]

I don't know my seniority number. I have never referenced it. I know there are only 12 people on the property junior to me if that helps. I don't know how many of them will join me on 2/26 and I don't know the rest of the assignment block. Sorry...I was more interested in confirming BP-3's for the commute (furoughed from ORD) and figuring out where I was supposed to be when next week.

W8N

Hey I think ur 8643. I am exactly 100 off the bottom and I am 8555, so if my math is ok, I think that's right....