Colgan new aircrafts

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I just finished 6 days of reserve flying at Pinnacle...two days off then it back to Shawshank.... my new mantra is....

Dealing with airline management is like trying to reason with your rapist.....

 

[JT12345]

Are YOU, a Colgan pilot, ALSO trying to screw Pinnacle pilots? Sounds like you're bordering on it by justifying your own good fortune.


It is ANYTHING that is purchased and operated by Pinnacle Airlines, its subsidiaries, or its successors.

CAREFUL I believe those 140 some CRJs are OWNED by Northwest airlines flown on routes OWNED by Northwest airlines.

Are YOU, a 9E pilot, ALSO trying to screw Northwest pilots? Sounds like you're bordering on it by jusifying your own good fortune.

Now wait I know that your at Airtra, but please think about what you are saying. Your acusing this guy of the same thing you were happy to be part of at 9E.

The northwest pilots and every major airline pilot screwed themselves when the first 19 seat turboprops came on their porperty almost 20 years ago, and they allowed their egos to get in the way of having one list for their colors. They didn't want this flying until they started losing jobs over it. They made their bed, and they have the real power to change it with an average pilot group of 6000 strong.

We are just learning from their mistakes, and not allowing this to happen again.

 

[XJohXJ]

Guys, As much as you don't want to admit it, the scope is pretty solid. There is no way that it could have been written better in '99. It names ANY successor, not PCL holding or the ABC company. It says ANY. Once you agree to the successor clause then all flying done by the successor should be done by the PCL pilot group.

In no way is this meant as a slam toward the Colgan guys. You didn't ask for any of this, it's just the way the contract was written way back in 1999. PCL knows they are on thin ice with this but decided to roll the dice anyway.

Hey Lear, have you also thought about the fact that Phil actually came to the MEC and ASKED for scope relief about a year before all this? Do you think he knew then that the scope was pretty good? It's really a low risk gamble for him. The only think he might be out is attorney fees for the defense, but they could fold the hand at any time.

Funny how managers try that game. At Mesaba, Mesaba mgt tried to use bankruptcy to throw out our scope clause with MAIR. The judge said "NO. No way, absolutely not". Which leads one to believe mgt thought it was a pretty solid scope and they'd have to fight it. So, now we find MAIR in some s-kicking Texas courtroom trying to throw the scope out, AGAIN, while mailing the MSA MEC a letter saying, essentially : "your scope means nothing to us, and we are now cancelling it".

This begs the question: If it is a meaningless scope, why are you going to court twice to try to throw it out?

 

[redflyer65]

Nicely said. I find the Mesaba case really interesting because I specifically remember the bankruptcy judges ruling as being without predjudice. Which usually means that its a slam dunk, do not comeback and ask again type of ruling.

I would think this first ruling will go along way in any further rulings no matter what. Good luck.

 

[XJohXJ]

Thanks. Good luck to you guys, too: PCL AND Colgan. We're all in this together.

Interesting times, indeed....

 

[Lear70]

If what you say is true, what is phil's tactic here? Is it to get the planes on property before he loses the court battle?

Phil's tactic is going to be to try and get by the Scope clause using the "holding company is different than the airline" technique.

He saw it work for Mesaba, and is going to give it a try. He has an outside change at winning it, and loses nothing in the process.

All the time knowing that the groups would have to merge eventually?

Not if he wins the court battle and can do whatever he wants with the holding company. Keep 'em separate and whipsaw them to death.

Would he have been able to get the planes with just you guys since you are still in contract negotiations?

Yes, he just would have had to accept whatever the MEC wanted for the planes.

We went down that road in 2002. For mainline Northwest Scope reasons, they started purchasing 44 seat jets. We didn't HAVE a 44 seat jet rate at the time.

Management tried to force a lower pay scale for the 44 seaters. We knew they were coming and held our ground (something ELSE a union is good for that we couldn't have done without it).

Management ended up having to pay the same rate for both aircraft in order to start flying them. I don't think they liked being powerless in that situation and is probably yet another reason they're trying to get around Scope.

How quickly would a federal court case be decided?

Oh God, who knows. I'm certain they could tie it up for quite a while; at least half a year, maybe even longer.

Hey Lear, have you also thought about the fact that Phil actually came to the MEC and ASKED for scope relief about a year before all this? Do you think he knew then that the scope was pretty good?

I'm certain he did and still does. If he wasn't worried about it, he wouldn't have been pursuing it in negotiations the last 3 years.

It's really a low risk gamble for him. The only think he might be out is attorney fees for the defense, but they could fold the hand at any time.

Nikki Tinker is held on retainer as a full-time employee. No extra attorney fees.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Wait till Philco starts shifting cash to Colgan and declares Pinnacle BK.... oh that already happened at XJ.........

 

[PCL_128]

Nikki Tinker is held on retainer as a full-time employee. No extra attorney fees.

I would be very surprised to see Nikki used in any sort of major court battle. For something like this, Phildo would go to the big guns. I would expect a Lorenzo-era lawyer like their current negotiating lawyer, Joe Manson.

 

[Lear70]

I would be very surprised to see Nikki used in any sort of major court battle. For something like this, Phildo would go to the big guns. I would expect a Lorenzo-era lawyer like their current negotiating lawyer, Joe Manson.

He already has, and she's lost quite a few of the wrongful termination suits which had near 7-figure settlements.

So possibly you're right, he may end up using someone with a better track record, but maybe only when it comes down to court time...? Who knows.

Either way, he's still trying to screw you and it's a large ROI if he wins with relatively little risk.

 

[Smarta$$]

Are YOU, a Colgan pilot, ALSO trying to screw Pinnacle pilots? Sounds like you're bordering on it by justifying your own good fortune.


It is ANYTHING that is purchased and operated by Pinnacle Airlines, its subsidiaries, or its successors.

CAREFUL I believe those 140 some CRJs are OWNED by Northwest airlines flown on routes OWNED by Northwest airlines.

Are YOU, a 9E pilot, ALSO trying to screw Northwest pilots? Sounds like you're bordering on it by jusifying your own good fortune.

Now wait I know that your at Airtra, but please think about what you are saying. Your acusing this guy of the same thing you were happy to be part of at 9E.

Pinnacle operates NO aircraft in violation of NWA scope. Not the same as managements scope violation of the 9E pilots.

Tool.

 

[Mr Wu]

Pinnacle operates NO aircraft in violation of NWA scope. Not the same as managements scope violation of the 9E pilots.

Tool.

You talked earlier about NWA's scope and 55 seats. If Pinnacle inc. win the suit and fly the Q400, won't that be a violation of NWA's scope?

 

[Lear70]

You talked earlier about NWA's scope and 55 seats. If Pinnacle inc. win the suit and fly the Q400, won't that be a violation of NWA's scope?

No.

The Scope language with Northwest only addresses planes that are flown BY Northwest OR that are flown FOR the Northwest system.

These Q-400's will not be owned by or even operated FOR Northwest; they will be flown for Continental.

There is no gripe by the Northwest pilots because they never would have been able to fly them anyway, even if Scope wasn't an issue. Northwest pilots fly Northwest aircraft. If the airplane is going to another airline (CAL, UAir, DAL), they don't care.

 

[Smarta$$]

You talked earlier about NWA's scope and 55 seats. If Pinnacle inc. win the suit and fly the Q400, won't that be a violation of NWA's scope?

That is old scope. As of our new ASA, we can fly up to 76 seats new without violating any NWA scope.

 

[JT12345]

Yup, the Key Word is Pinnacle Airlines...Not Pinnacle Airlines CORP!!! There is a HUGE difference. If you guys don't know the difference, no wonder your management is so easily able to screw you at every turn.

I didn't write your scope, I just know how it is being interpreted by management and how it will be by any court, if you bring a lawsuit. I'm sure ALPA knows it too. Again, we didn't write it, from what you say, you did.

I have said time and time again that I wish nothing bad for either pilot group and what we want is what you want...to keep the companies separate, us operating Turboprops, you the jets. To say or imply that I am attacking or wishing anything negative on 9E pilots just tells me that you haven't actually read my posts very carefully.

I just want you all to be realistic about where you stand and stop telling us what to YOU think WE should do. I think most Colgan pilots don't feel a bit of remorse about flying Q400s. That is and always was OUR flying, period.

Pinnacle Inc. is aquiring another company. That falls under our scope. If management wanted to merge the companies, and the Pinnacle Pilots didn't want to merge mamangement could force a merger under the Railway Labor Act. The same applies if the Pinnacle Pilots want to merge and management doesn't. The contract is binding to both parties regardless of their interests at the time.

For example: If Pinnacle Inc. bought American Eagle Pinnacle pilots may not want a merger under the by-laws, but we would be binded under the contract.

So you see, what we as individuals think is right and wrong, or we fly this and they fly that really doesn't matter.

Usually the Railway labor Act and contracts are to the benefit of management. 4 years of negotiations at ASA is unbelievalbe. Pinnacle management wants current contract, and with the current administration in Washington they are having a easy time getting what they want by stalling negotiations.

 

[JT12345]

Quote:
Originally Posted by vtchaz
I think most Colgan pilots don't feel a bit of remorse about flying Q400s. That is and always was OUR flying, period



Eh...em.

The Q400s are not YOUR flying. They are Continental's. You are just a sub-contractor for Continental. Easy come easy go. Here today gone tomorrow. You are just the flavor of the month.

Never ever forget that when you work at a regional or you will be very disappointed in the coming years while there.

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P.S. I hear Colgan is getting rid of their 1900s. Too many airplane types.