Alpa President John Prater's Video Response To Age 60

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Every pilot entered this profession knowing what the retirement age was.

Problem: Most pilots enter the profession not knowing that is all politics.... Everything is up for grabs...change is the only constant....

If you aren't paying attention to CapHill then your head is in the sand...

 

[JoeMerchant]

This is why it doesn't matter who the President of ALPA is. I like Prater more than Woerth, but we as a group are still too divided when it comes to scope, age 60, mergers, and political support.

 

[JoeMerchant]

The hyperbole is all about defending the profession.... until an issue comes up... then everything gets polarized and "whats best for the profession gets thrown by the wayside"

Here is a major problem..... We get too focused on the issues, draw lines in the sand, buld walls and fight each other.... After the issues is put to rest everyone is against everyone and we treat each other as suspect....

Your right Rez, but how do you change that?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Thanks for the links. I will email them all that I am in favor.

Hey we agree on something.......

 

[humuakalaka]

In the video, Prater states that the age-65 NPRM is going to go forward despite what ALPA has done. In other words, ALPA has been officially opposed to age-65. That means that the forces working for age-65 worked for it outside of the direction of the unions (ALPA, etc) and outside of the wishes of the majority of the pilots (according to most polls). Age-65 will have a tremendous impact on all of the airline pilot forces. It is a change that will rob a great percentage of pilots of income, retirement savings, career advancement, quality of life, and in some cases jobs (those on furlough and those who would've been hired without age-65). In times past, we would have called those people who worked outside of the union to cause the above results "scabs".

It seems clear to me that we can directly identify APAAD (Airline Pilots Against Age Discrimination) as one of the extra-union forces that pushed for age-65 and it wouldn't be much of a stretch to call it's members "scabs" in light of the impact their actions will have on so many of us. Perhaps we should move to begin treating them as such.

 

[JoeMerchant]

It seems clear to me that we directly identify APAAD (Airline Pilots Against Age Discrimination) as one of the extra-union forces that pushed for age-65 and it wouldn't be much of a stretch to call it's members "scabs" in light of the impact their actions will have on so many of us. Perhaps we should move to begin treating them as such.

So any pilot who advocates raising the retirement age to 65 is now a scab? Did you know that ALPA originally opposed the age 60 rule when it was first proposed - did that make ALPA "scabs" at the time????

 

[humuakalaka]

So any pilot who advocates raising the retirement age to 65 is now a scab? Did you know that ALPA originally opposed the age 60 rule when it was first proposed - did that make ALPA "scabs" at the time????

Joe,

No, that is NOT what I said. Don't put words in my mouth or attempt to twist what I said. Once again, I said:

"It seems clear to me that we [can] directly identify APAAD (Airline Pilots Against Age Discrimination) as one of the extra-union forces that pushed for age-65 and it wouldn't be much of a stretch to call it's members 'scabs' in light of the impact their actions will have on so many of us."

What I meant by this is what I said. If you are a member of APAAD, then perhaps you should be treated as a scab.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Your right Rez, but how do you change that?

Stop focusing on only the issues..... focus on team building... Sounds to touchy feely?

Yet we crash jets today not becuase the engines fail but because we can't get along and play well with others... same with ALPA affairs... too many MEC's treat each other as suspect.. no trust, little respect... change that and we can do much better... I am not saying we have to agree, but we can't be going after each other either....

Here is a small part of the puzzle....

At major city domiciles where there are multiple ALPA councils they are rarely in the same building... MSP does it right... MEM does it wrong. Every city that has multiple domicles could have one ALPA office location. It is cheaper on the 2% dues and the MEC's can actually meet and talk to each other. One is much more likely to work together with another if they know each other.

How is it in ATL? DAL and ASA share the same office building?

 

[Neubyfly]

Yeah let ALL ALPA members vote on this. Been an ALPA member for over 20 years and I didn't get polled on that "70% in favor" yall are talkng about! BTW, I'd be in favor of going for it!

Then you are too lazy to read the ALPA emails. Everyone had the oportunity to participate in the polling.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Joe,

No, that is NOT what I said. Don't put words in my mouth or attempt to twist what I said. Once again, I said:

"It seems clear to me that we [can] directly identify APAAD (Airline Pilots Against Age Discrimination) as one of the extra-union forces that pushed for age-65 and it wouldn't be much of a stretch to call it's members 'scabs' in light of the impact their actions will have on so many of us."

What I meant by this is what I said. If you are a member of APAAD, then perhaps you should be treated as a scab.

I don't follow? If a group of pilots or anyone in this country use the political process to effect change how are they scabs? Another way to do it is by force.

What APAAD is doing is every bit the American way. So unless you are for socialism and borderline communism, please refrain from irresponsible banter..

If you don't like the direction of the movement I suggest you Man Up and take responsbility for your actions and fate. If you don't like politics then find someone who is willing to play politics for you..... Either way it is going to cost you bucks....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Stop focusing on only the issues..... focus on team building... Sounds to touchy feely?

Actually, yes it does. Hard to focus on "team building", when we are on different teams. Is there much "team building" going on between the Bears and the Colts this week?

Yet we crash jets today not becuase the engines fail but because we can't get along and play well with others... same with ALPA affairs... too many MEC's treat each other as suspect.. no trust, little respect... change that and we can do much better... I am not saying we have to agree, but we can't be going after each other either....

That's because we are on different TEAMS - plain and simple.

At major city domiciles where there are multiple ALPA councils they are rarely in the same building... MSP does it right... MEM does it wrong. Every city that has multiple domicles could have one ALPA office location. It is cheaper on the 2% dues and the MEC's can actually meet and talk to each other. One is much more likely to work together with another if they know each other.

How is it in ATL? DAL and ASA share the same office building?

I'm not interested in what building they are in, but rather how their scope affects me and if I have a say in it. During the PID, our MEC office was in the same suite as the Council 44 office - same break room and same secretary. Didn't help.

Come on Rez., sharing offices and wearing our hats during informational picketing isn't going to get it done. It's going to take a lot more than that.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

I don't follow? If a group of pilots or anyone in this country use the political process to effect change how are they scabs? Another way to do it is by force.

What APAAD is doing is every bit the American way. So unless you are for socialism and borderline communism, please refrain from irresponsible banter..

If you don't like the direction of the movement I suggest you Man Up and take responsbility for your actions and fate. If you don't like politics then find someone who is willing to play politics for you..... Either way it is going to cost you bucks....

Rez, we don't agree on much, but very well said......

 

[humuakalaka]

I don't follow? If a group of pilots or anyone in this country use the political process to effect change how are they scabs? Another way to do it is by force.

Of course, there is nothing wrong with using the political process. However, it's what APAAD was using the political process for that is so dubious. They used the political process to agitate for action that will harm many of our pilot brethren.

Likewise, there's also nothing wrong with accepting a job to provide an income for your family. However, when you cross a picket line to accept that job, it becomes a dubious affair because it harms your pilot brethren.

What APAAD is doing is every bit the American way. So unless you are for socialism and borderline communism, please refrain from irresponsible banter..

If you mean that looking out for number one is "the American way" then I wholeheartedly agree with you.

I don't understand your reference to communism or socialism and how they relate to the matter at hand.

If you don't like the direction of the movement I suggest you Man Up and take responsbility for your actions and fate. If you don't like politics then find someone who is willing to play politics for you..... Either way it is going to cost you bucks....

This is simply an ad hominem attack and, as such, contributes nothing to this discussion. It's a tactic that is often employed when a person cannot think of anything of value to say.

 

[JoeMerchant]

This is simply an ad hominem attack and, as such, contributes nothing to this discussion. It's a tactic that is often employed when a person cannot think of anything of value to say.

Kinda like calling APAAD members scabs........ Pot meet kettle.......

 

[ASARJMan]

Hey we agree on something.......

Cool.

 

[ASARJMan]

Was that the poll that only 1/3 of the entire membership participated?

Exactly! Maybe ALPA's afraid of the results if every ALPA member had the opportunity to vote.

 

[ASARJMan]

Funny how the minority is so gleeful in showing their smug, I-am-going-to-screw-you attitude.

ASARJMan, you will still be in the minority.

And your point? Not smug, but last I checked it's a free country and I too can contact my union pres, and representatives on how I feel about eliminating the 60 age restriction. Sorry I don't have the same belief you do.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Exactly! Maybe ALPA's afraid of the results if every ALPA member had the opportunity to vote.

Actually RJMan, we all did have the opportunity, but only 37% participated. There was plenty of information put out, but most people didn't participate....

ALPA Age 60 Survey Participation
as of Close of Survey on
April 29, 2005:
37.60% Overall​

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Actually RJMan, we all did have the opportunity, but only 37% participated. There was plenty of information put out, but most people didn't participate....

ALPA Age 60 Survey Participation
as of Close of Survey on
April 29, 2005:​

37.60% Overall​

so 66% of 37.6% want age 60 to remain...

I can't believe Prater claims ALPA is divided over this issue. NO WE ARE NOT, in the last survey almost 7 out 10 ALPA pilots said no we don't want to change the rule.

I am emailing Prater to ask him to honor our decissions as a union, or RESIGN.

What a shame, his first decission is against almost 70% of ALPA member's will.

​

That is 24% of 66,000 or 15,840 members. Hardly a true representation. Could one argue that only 24% want Age 60 so that is a minority. The other 50K don't care or want it changed.

The Keep Age 60 crowd is the minority....



How can Prater lead when there is no followership....

You guys are weak....


Somebody school me!!!

 

[El Pobre]

Shut up SCAB!