Speedtape
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2004
- Posts
- 1,973
Welcome to Flightinfo.com
- Register now and join the discussion
- Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
- Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
- Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
- Share the passion for aviation
- Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun
Brian Wilson Endorses The ASA Coalition!
- Thread starter ASARJMan
- Start date
- Watchers 34
Welcome to Flightinfo.com
- Register now and join the discussion
- Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
- Invite your friends
- Share the passion of aviation
- Friendliest aviation community on the web
Besides LJ's and her boytoy's other motives, that says enough for me to NOT for for her and HER dream team!
VOTED IN FAVOR!
PAID FOR BY THE VOTE NO TO THE LJ COALTION
John Pennekamp
I'd rather be here...
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2006
- Posts
- 3,895
If you really want some entertainment, go ask one of her FO candidates HOW they plan to achieve a contract in 90 days, and watch him dance. Then ask him why we should respect someone who says they'll quit if they don't get their way.
None of them except Lynn have any MEC experience (yes, Barry was an hotel chairman). The FOs have NEVER been involved with ALPA.
None of them except Lynn have any MEC experience (yes, Barry was an hotel chairman). The FOs have NEVER been involved with ALPA.
Richard Gozinya
Vikings Fan
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2006
- Posts
- 478
......before I voted no!
God, I've been waiting for someone to say this.
Maybe if I said it was just a botched joke, I could get away with it.
Dick
atrdriver
Living in Paradise
- Joined
- Apr 13, 2004
- Posts
- 9,271
And that should tell you everything you need to know about the fab four. Management allows them to place information in our mailboxes, while they refuse to allow ALPA to place anything in our mailboxes. The fact that management endorses them is enough to tell most intelligent people what their ultimate agenda would be. I like everyone who is running in the "coalition" personally, but I am violently against their politics and their hopes for this pilot group.
atrdriver
Living in Paradise
- Joined
- Apr 13, 2004
- Posts
- 9,271
Do you want ALPA to fly the airplane on a V1 cut as well? ALPA didn't start the transfer of airplanes, and ALPA can't stop it. You seem confused as to who you should be upset with. JA is the one deciding where airplanes will go. If you want to be upset with someone then get upset with management.
Speedtape
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2004
- Posts
- 1,973
Speedtape
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2004
- Posts
- 1,973
Originally Posted by Speedtape 
ll
Their plan is "we'll roll over and have you a contract in 90 days." They also are promising a jean day on Monday's and Friday's.
Those other 3 people that LJ has roped into her little scheme have no idea of what they have gotten themselves into. A fellow pilot that is in R/T with one of the F/O's that is running on her ticket, was asked today some real basic questions about their platform and how they were going to achieve their 90 day goal, and the poor guy doesn't have a clue! HMMMM!
I think we need to think this one out real carefully.
L.J. , quit hiding out in the smoking room and behind Chuck Vier's office door! Come into the crew lounge and face the pilots you want to vote for you. You need to answer some questions about your ALPA experience. You need to answer some questions with more detail about how your plan can work. You need to answer some questions about why you think you deserve our trust. Why are you hiding behind three other innocent pilots?
Why did you get recalled? Why did you go into mangagement? Why did you leave management--sounds like you may not have? Why did you quit the MEC Vice-Chair job? Why should you deserve the trust of this pilot group?
Those are things that need to be answered--or maybe not!
Most of us that have been here for any length of time have been paying attention and don't have short memories!
I vote NO to the CO----alition! Of really ONE!
ll
Their plan is "we'll roll over and have you a contract in 90 days." They also are promising a jean day on Monday's and Friday's.
Those other 3 people that LJ has roped into her little scheme have no idea of what they have gotten themselves into. A fellow pilot that is in R/T with one of the F/O's that is running on her ticket, was asked today some real basic questions about their platform and how they were going to achieve their 90 day goal, and the poor guy doesn't have a clue! HMMMM!
I think we need to think this one out real carefully.
L.J. , quit hiding out in the smoking room and behind Chuck Vier's office door! Come into the crew lounge and face the pilots you want to vote for you. You need to answer some questions about your ALPA experience. You need to answer some questions with more detail about how your plan can work. You need to answer some questions about why you think you deserve our trust. Why are you hiding behind three other innocent pilots?
Why did you get recalled? Why did you go into mangagement? Why did you leave management--sounds like you may not have? Why did you quit the MEC Vice-Chair job? Why should you deserve the trust of this pilot group?
Those are things that need to be answered--or maybe not!
Most of us that have been here for any length of time have been paying attention and don't have short memories!
I vote NO to the CO----alition! Of really ONE!
Speedtape
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2004
- Posts
- 1,973
Jack-O-Lantern
The Central Scrutinizer
- Joined
- Mar 8, 2005
- Posts
- 200
These imature personal attacks only fortify my beliefs and many others that these few mentioned are simply misguided uneducated bafoons who only strengthen the push for change as in the so called "fab 4".
Keep it up boys!
Since questions have been brought up regarding the ASACoalition and their approach towards the accomplishment of the new contract, I've taken the liberty of posting their email address. Many of you have stated that spewing garbage and slander on Flight Info is a waste, so here is the official channel for directing your questions and concerns. The email I have is:
[email protected]
Also, I would like to post the addresses for the others, but I do not have their email addresses. If someone would post them here, it would also be appreciated. At least doing that presents an opportunity to query EVERY candidate with concerns.
Thanks,
VeeOne
[email protected]
Also, I would like to post the addresses for the others, but I do not have their email addresses. If someone would post them here, it would also be appreciated. At least doing that presents an opportunity to query EVERY candidate with concerns.
Thanks,
VeeOne
Setting the record straight
Regarding Richard Gozinya's post, while accurate generally it is inaccurate in certain important details. Yes I ran into BL while turning in some paperwork and yes we talked about the contract in the hallway but our conversation migrated to his office and we talked one on one at length about the contract, sitting chair to chair for one and one-half hours. (I have known BL personally for about 5 years) He began to discuss a number of details about the negotiations at which point I stopped him and specifically asked what about our conversations I could relate publically. I agreed not to discuss any details about his specific conversations but he did give me specific permission to discuss the rest of OUR conversation which I in turn related to Beal a couple of days later.
I specifically observed him closely and the whole time he looked me straight in the eye so if he is lying through his teeth, he is dang good at it. He did state that in the last round of negotiations he offered all he was authorized to offer and then some. He stated that after the mediator had looked at the MEC counter offer, he didn't present it to management, rather the mediator stated that "you are still too far apart" and announced he was going back to Washington. He also related to me that his current guidance from Salt Lake was to "let it run its natural course" - St. George was convinced that the current offer would probably make ASA uncompetitive for future growth unless BL could find millions of dollars in increased efficiencies over the next year or so - any further significant concessions would just exacerbate that condition.
He admitted that the Atlanta station needed considerable work and that the negotiation process had distracted him from devoting the necessary attention to that task and that improving performance in Atlanta was now job one for him and fixing it was being held as one of his important personal performance benchmarks.
AT NO TIME did BL EVER bring up Barry Lee or Lynn Jackson - rather I brought it up and asked him his opinion of it. He had the same opinion that I have - at least someone (Im not sure they will prove any better) has a defined plan and a timetable but he like me was not overly optimistic for any real significant change. The point here is that BL never had anything to say about Barry Lee and Lynn Jackson until I brought the subject up and then and only then expressed a simple opinion that in representing a possible change from the status quo, their throwing their hat in might result in renewed progress toward completing the contract.
Do I like Bryan? Yes, I think he truly is trying to do what he thinks is best for the company as a whole. Do I think he is a saint? No I have some real reservations about how he approaches problems sometimes - quite frankly I have worked for better managers in that they were much more skilled in communication, coaching, and motivating. Does BL hate pilots? No but he is perplexed about the vitriol spewed his way and the personal ad hominen attacks. But do I think BL has long canines and a forked tail hidden in his drawers as some of you think? No what I see is a man simply trying to do his job the best he can on a day to day basis. What I don't see is a lot of well thought out alternative options being expressed by my peers to fix the problems we have. What I don't see is a sincere attempt to see and understand the problems from the management perspective.
You know there ARE a very few mid level personnel in the GO who think that every ALPA pilot is a programmed unthinking automaton who goosesteps to the marching orders of ALPA National but BL is not one of them - neither is CT. Being around line pilots I know better - there are a few kool aid drinkers but the vast majority of line pilots that I know try sincerely to make difficult policy and position decisions on inadequate and at times inaccurate information. I agree with some of them, some of them I don't but one thing is for certain, we have all paid for the right to have our opinions aired in the marketplace of ideas.
Similarly I am amazed at the level of misinformation and misrepresentation regarding senior management actions and motives evident in these forums. What I can't understand is why more pilots simply don't pick up the phone, schedule an appointment, and talk directly one on one with some of these managers like I have. Neal Boortz likes to say on his radio program: "Don't believe anything I say unless you personally know it to be true." When I want to know if something is true that someone else told me, I simply march off to the office of the individual in question or call them on the phone and politely confront them with it. And then I ask questions until I have a good grasp of the problems they face, the constraints they are under and therefore usually come to an understanding of why they did what they did. I may still not like it, may still disagree with it - BUT AT LEAST I GOT THE FACTS FROM THE SOURCE.
Over the years I have told managers to their face including Skip Barnett that certain actions by the company and by them were unfair or inappropriate. ( my complaint to Skip was how the Delta treated the family of the Ft. Walton Beach station manager after his death. I politely and professionally told him that Delta's inaction was indefensible and was exactly the kind of action that just fuels the worst of pilot/employee management complaints).
One manager, who has known me for years (and has heard my complaints about the quality of my representation), after I pinned him to the wall on a decision he made that I thought was unreasonable very politely and in a friendly way called me "an equal opportunity a$$%!". He is right, I am in some respects because I think for myself and I try to hold both sides accountable for their actions and inaction when I think they are wrong.
So like me, hate me, agree with me, disagree with me, debate me: I have formed my opinions not because I cozy up to management or the union, I have formed my opinions through educating myself over the last 10 years from third-party independent analyses of the airline, the union, the industry and their history. I have studied past successful managers and leadership to understand what good leadership is and to recognize it when I see it.
Quite simply, I don't trust anyone with my career future - I mean that I DONT TRUST ANYONE in this regard - there are too many special interest groups with their own agenda who are more than willing to try to manipulate you to their own ends and in this industry history shows that they are on both sides of the negotiation table. I have plenty of third party material and would be happy to pass it on (most of it is in e-file form) if any of you want a broader perspective. Educate yourself from sources other than the union and the company. Form your own opinion - we may end up agreeing or we may end up disagreeing vociferously but at least we will both be informed and not ignorant of the forces and conditions in play that affect whether our negotiations are on target for a sustainable contract or not.
BW
Regarding Richard Gozinya's post, while accurate generally it is inaccurate in certain important details. Yes I ran into BL while turning in some paperwork and yes we talked about the contract in the hallway but our conversation migrated to his office and we talked one on one at length about the contract, sitting chair to chair for one and one-half hours. (I have known BL personally for about 5 years) He began to discuss a number of details about the negotiations at which point I stopped him and specifically asked what about our conversations I could relate publically. I agreed not to discuss any details about his specific conversations but he did give me specific permission to discuss the rest of OUR conversation which I in turn related to Beal a couple of days later.
I specifically observed him closely and the whole time he looked me straight in the eye so if he is lying through his teeth, he is dang good at it. He did state that in the last round of negotiations he offered all he was authorized to offer and then some. He stated that after the mediator had looked at the MEC counter offer, he didn't present it to management, rather the mediator stated that "you are still too far apart" and announced he was going back to Washington. He also related to me that his current guidance from Salt Lake was to "let it run its natural course" - St. George was convinced that the current offer would probably make ASA uncompetitive for future growth unless BL could find millions of dollars in increased efficiencies over the next year or so - any further significant concessions would just exacerbate that condition.
He admitted that the Atlanta station needed considerable work and that the negotiation process had distracted him from devoting the necessary attention to that task and that improving performance in Atlanta was now job one for him and fixing it was being held as one of his important personal performance benchmarks.
AT NO TIME did BL EVER bring up Barry Lee or Lynn Jackson - rather I brought it up and asked him his opinion of it. He had the same opinion that I have - at least someone (Im not sure they will prove any better) has a defined plan and a timetable but he like me was not overly optimistic for any real significant change. The point here is that BL never had anything to say about Barry Lee and Lynn Jackson until I brought the subject up and then and only then expressed a simple opinion that in representing a possible change from the status quo, their throwing their hat in might result in renewed progress toward completing the contract.
Do I like Bryan? Yes, I think he truly is trying to do what he thinks is best for the company as a whole. Do I think he is a saint? No I have some real reservations about how he approaches problems sometimes - quite frankly I have worked for better managers in that they were much more skilled in communication, coaching, and motivating. Does BL hate pilots? No but he is perplexed about the vitriol spewed his way and the personal ad hominen attacks. But do I think BL has long canines and a forked tail hidden in his drawers as some of you think? No what I see is a man simply trying to do his job the best he can on a day to day basis. What I don't see is a lot of well thought out alternative options being expressed by my peers to fix the problems we have. What I don't see is a sincere attempt to see and understand the problems from the management perspective.
You know there ARE a very few mid level personnel in the GO who think that every ALPA pilot is a programmed unthinking automaton who goosesteps to the marching orders of ALPA National but BL is not one of them - neither is CT. Being around line pilots I know better - there are a few kool aid drinkers but the vast majority of line pilots that I know try sincerely to make difficult policy and position decisions on inadequate and at times inaccurate information. I agree with some of them, some of them I don't but one thing is for certain, we have all paid for the right to have our opinions aired in the marketplace of ideas.
Similarly I am amazed at the level of misinformation and misrepresentation regarding senior management actions and motives evident in these forums. What I can't understand is why more pilots simply don't pick up the phone, schedule an appointment, and talk directly one on one with some of these managers like I have. Neal Boortz likes to say on his radio program: "Don't believe anything I say unless you personally know it to be true." When I want to know if something is true that someone else told me, I simply march off to the office of the individual in question or call them on the phone and politely confront them with it. And then I ask questions until I have a good grasp of the problems they face, the constraints they are under and therefore usually come to an understanding of why they did what they did. I may still not like it, may still disagree with it - BUT AT LEAST I GOT THE FACTS FROM THE SOURCE.
Over the years I have told managers to their face including Skip Barnett that certain actions by the company and by them were unfair or inappropriate. ( my complaint to Skip was how the Delta treated the family of the Ft. Walton Beach station manager after his death. I politely and professionally told him that Delta's inaction was indefensible and was exactly the kind of action that just fuels the worst of pilot/employee management complaints).
One manager, who has known me for years (and has heard my complaints about the quality of my representation), after I pinned him to the wall on a decision he made that I thought was unreasonable very politely and in a friendly way called me "an equal opportunity a$$%!". He is right, I am in some respects because I think for myself and I try to hold both sides accountable for their actions and inaction when I think they are wrong.
So like me, hate me, agree with me, disagree with me, debate me: I have formed my opinions not because I cozy up to management or the union, I have formed my opinions through educating myself over the last 10 years from third-party independent analyses of the airline, the union, the industry and their history. I have studied past successful managers and leadership to understand what good leadership is and to recognize it when I see it.
Quite simply, I don't trust anyone with my career future - I mean that I DONT TRUST ANYONE in this regard - there are too many special interest groups with their own agenda who are more than willing to try to manipulate you to their own ends and in this industry history shows that they are on both sides of the negotiation table. I have plenty of third party material and would be happy to pass it on (most of it is in e-file form) if any of you want a broader perspective. Educate yourself from sources other than the union and the company. Form your own opinion - we may end up agreeing or we may end up disagreeing vociferously but at least we will both be informed and not ignorant of the forces and conditions in play that affect whether our negotiations are on target for a sustainable contract or not.
BW
Oh this is going to be good...
Wow, where to start...so many problems with this...
Instead of the personal stuff, let me just go to the facts...
Oh he is. Just like all the rest of our "leadership" before him. It's what they do, it's how they operate. We have seen time and again instances of lies(Drew Bedson: "I don't have any plans for another crew base and I don't want another crew base" less than a week prior to the closing of DFW and the announcement of SLC). If you believe him because he looked you straight in the eye, well then, you're overly-trusting.
That's where you're both wrong. At no point thus far have Lynn and the other 3 proposed or discussed their "defined plan" to anyone. Well, except maybe you and John and BL and the rest. They have given us zero in terms of their "plan" and how they propose to make it happen. One of the 4 in recurrent last week was asked and his response was "I don't know"
How often are you around line pilots really? CT has shown by his remarks in meetings and in the crew room that he in fact DOES think every ALPA pilot is an automaton who follows ALPA's orders and doesn't deserve what s/he currently has.
When we're out flying the line and trying to work through the problems in ATL, it's hard to log as much "GO time" as you're able to.
Thanks for the offer. Next time though, wait until someone actually accepts it before you start stuffing it into people's boxes. Just because you think you know what you're talking about doesn't mean everyone else does.
So, since you took the time to post, which I appreciate, I'll ask you: What is your solution? We have no information from LJ and her crew, so since you seem to know what their "defined plan" is, enlighten us as to what we need to do and where we need to go from here. You can take all the time you want to make a logical and reasonable-sounding post, but you offer no substance that makes any difference to the current situation. I myself don't have "the answer", but I don't believe that management is working towards a solution that is in my best interests and I therefore don't believe in trusting them without facts to back up their statements. I have seen nothing yet, so I choose to stay the course and tell management that we(including you) are worth more than what they offer.
Wow, where to start...so many problems with this...
Instead of the personal stuff, let me just go to the facts...
Oh he is. Just like all the rest of our "leadership" before him. It's what they do, it's how they operate. We have seen time and again instances of lies(Drew Bedson: "I don't have any plans for another crew base and I don't want another crew base" less than a week prior to the closing of DFW and the announcement of SLC). If you believe him because he looked you straight in the eye, well then, you're overly-trusting.
That's where you're both wrong. At no point thus far have Lynn and the other 3 proposed or discussed their "defined plan" to anyone. Well, except maybe you and John and BL and the rest. They have given us zero in terms of their "plan" and how they propose to make it happen. One of the 4 in recurrent last week was asked and his response was "I don't know"
How often are you around line pilots really? CT has shown by his remarks in meetings and in the crew room that he in fact DOES think every ALPA pilot is an automaton who follows ALPA's orders and doesn't deserve what s/he currently has.
When we're out flying the line and trying to work through the problems in ATL, it's hard to log as much "GO time" as you're able to.
Thanks for the offer. Next time though, wait until someone actually accepts it before you start stuffing it into people's boxes. Just because you think you know what you're talking about doesn't mean everyone else does.
So, since you took the time to post, which I appreciate, I'll ask you: What is your solution? We have no information from LJ and her crew, so since you seem to know what their "defined plan" is, enlighten us as to what we need to do and where we need to go from here. You can take all the time you want to make a logical and reasonable-sounding post, but you offer no substance that makes any difference to the current situation. I myself don't have "the answer", but I don't believe that management is working towards a solution that is in my best interests and I therefore don't believe in trusting them without facts to back up their statements. I have seen nothing yet, so I choose to stay the course and tell management that we(including you) are worth more than what they offer.
FightingIrish
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 1, 2003
- Posts
- 333
Ask them yourself:
[email protected]
What is the other side offering? More of the same? Stay the course? Isn't that what just got the Republicans in trouble?
What they are offering is what the majority said they wanted on the Wilson Center polling. Since you think that the minority should get what they want at the expense of the majority maybe you need to reevaluate your agenda.
601Pilot
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2001
- Posts
- 338
Well, he shouldn't be "perplexed" about it. Actions speak louder than words and his piss-poor management of the ramp (in the past) and now the company speaks volumes. There are many pilots here that wouldn't piss on BL if he was on fire! Hopefully he knows that and takes it to heart! If he ever shows ANY sort of leadership, then I may change my mind.
Perhaps you need to re-read my post:
This isn't a 3rd-hand piece of information. This is from the person who asked the question.
I wasn't going to say anything about this next thing, but since you brought it up...
Shortly after the announcement of the coalition, I received a PM from Joe Merchant regarding a post I had made. He was offended at what I had to say regarding his "broken-record" diatribes. So, I sent him a PM back offering an apology if I had personally offended him, but explaining why I felt he was all talk and no substance. I then questioned his involvement with the coalition, what his true objectives were, and how they were planning to acheive their stated goals. His response? Nothing. Silence speaks volumes
Before you say "Joe Merchant isn't one of the 4", get real. If you think this isn't his idea, you're kidding yourself.
As for the email addresss, thanks, I'll use it right after I finish this post. I don't see why I have to email them to get an answer though. They took the time to make up a memo to promote their group, couldn't they have put their plan on it? I know where to find ALPA information, maybe the coalition should get their own website. Heck, I'll create it for them for free if they're willing to spill the beans on the "master plan"
I'm not happy with the progress of negotiations just like everyone else. However, I know the value of effective leadership and the value of having someone who has the best interests of the people they represent in mind. Lynn has proven that she is not that person. Danny and Nick have done far more for our pilot group than the rest have.
I'd put this in the same category as spewing on FI but being told to attend an MEC meeting instead if it is to be pertinent or answered. As for representing the majority- I agree we need a raise, but not a 10% raise. I've never been asked WHAT I want in detail. When I've asked several legitimate ALPA reps about my concerns regarding our proposed payrates and benefits, I was promptly told to go to Skywest. I view this as completely unacceptable- my 2% of each paycheck goes HERE to ASA.....How about some basis and some fact to back and bolster our request for that pay raise. Explain to me how our approach is still believed to allow our company to prosper without shifting jobs and equipment to Skywest. Sell me on the fact that our ALPA representation has a game plan that secures our future as well as upping the ante in the new contract. I haven't gotten any of this from official channels or ALPA reps on multiple occassions. Thus, I'm backing someone that does address MY concerns and answers MY questions. Am I alone? I think not. We ALL know that it will be the junior captains and ALL F/O's that will pay for misjudgements if we get this contract wrong. Eight year upgrades for F/O's and downgrades for junior captains is not a promising aspect for many.......
ohplease!
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2004
- Posts
- 1,477
Huh? I get stuff in my mailbox from ALPA. You know NOT what you speak.....
Share this page
Latest resources
-
-
-
-
-
AC 90-89C - Amateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing HandbookAmateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing Handbook
- Neal
- Updated:
