You might be a "Kernal"

[sinkrate]

Someone needs a reality check. Are you telling me UND, ERAU, ALL ATPS's or your local Cessna Pilot Center produces better pilots in 250 hours than Pensacola, Randolph, or Sheppard. Seriously. 250 hours in Cessna 172's makes a better pilot than 250 hours in high perfromance jets and turboprops? Sure Wave whatever you say.

In a 121 environment I have worked with many Guard/Reserve guys and gals that were civilian trained pilots first, then when to Pensacola, Randolph and Sheppard. Remarkably, every single one of them stated the basic stick and rudder, basic instrument and instrument procedures instruction was superior in the their civilian training. The difference was the aerobatic and formation flying training done in the military, that is not used in 121 operations. This is from military trained pilots that had the unique viewpoint of having gone through basic training in both systems.

Over almost two decades I've done 1000's of hours of OE with new hires in a RJ and 1000's of hours in a sim with new hires. Worked with everyone from 250 hour UND wonders to retired 89th MAW to guys with more inverted combat time than I had total time (from several different Air Forces) to guys that made their military careers in T-34c's, T-6's, T-38's and T1A's to guys that came out of crop dusters to guys that came out of 747's and MD11's. The former military guys usually start way behind on instrument procedures and generally don't complete initial any quicker than civilian pilots. The single seat and single engine guys have their own set of problems. The civilian guys jumping from a light twin to a swept wing jet have a big hurdle. Their fundamental skills are usually sound and they get over the hurdle just as quick as the former military guys get over theirs. Which is remarkable considering their very low time versus the military guys.

Six of one, half dozen of the other. Doesn't matter to me which one I draw.

 

[IBNAV8R]

"I'm a better pilot because I flew a turbine for training, wore a green bag, could stand and recite my EPs verbatim, and spent 4-hours briefing a one-hour flight"

"I'm a better pilot because I wore epaulets and a tie when getting my PPL and NEVER flew without a safety pilot (er, co-captain) the AIRLINE way."

It matters not where you got your training. What matters is that your experience, maturity, attitude and professionalism are what they should be - today.

Are your skills sharp (even though you're not going to sim), Do you keep up on systems knowledge, limitations and changes to FOM, SOPs, EPs, FARs, AIM, etc. Are you an active member of the team or are you just there to collect a paycheck and b****.

P.S. I don't give a rat's a** how you did it in your unit. In MY unit we fly smoothly, competently and safely and we want our passengers and peers to think this is the best flight they've ever had.

I guess the CAP thing makes me a "kernal". Whatever, that's why, "it's good to be da captain."

 

[AirCobra]

Yeah, that's a safe attitude-
That's the mentality that gets airline pilots on cnn

No respect for the gig

It IS hard for some people- esp when they have to retrain their whole purpose for and way of flying

There are difficult things in aviation and things that are not so difficult. You were talking about skill transfer. Flying a stabilized approach to a carrier in a jet, even if it is single engine presents a much greater difficulty than flying a stabilized 10 mile straight in in a 737. It only becomes difficult or dangerous of you screw it up so badly that you ignore a myriad of automated calls and visual indications that you are screwing up.

A carrier pilot does not have those luxuries not to mention the runways we land on seldom move. What the cockpit of an airliner does is takes much of the skill required through automation. What the carrier trained pilot has going for him is if the automation fails he is already accustomed to using manual skills and can quickly process spatial relationships. There is where the skill transfer comes in. Your typical RJ pilot may not have the manual flying skills to complement your amazing ability when the chips are down. The Colgan accident probably serves as a good example of this.

Who would you want in an upset situation like the Colgan or Air France accidents. A guy that received a 3 hour sim course, or a person with extensive training in aerobatics in high performance aircraft?

 

[AirCobra]

In a 121 environment I have worked with many Guard/Reserve guys and gals that were civilian trained pilots first, then when to Pensacola, Randolph and Sheppard. Remarkably, every single one of them stated the basic stick and rudder, basic instrument and instrument procedures instruction was superior in the their civilian training. The difference was the aerobatic and formation flying training done in the military, that is not used in 121 operations. This is from military trained pilots that had the unique viewpoint of having gone through basic training in both systems.

Over almost two decades I've done 1000's of hours of OE with new hires in a RJ and 1000's of hours in a sim with new hires. Worked with everyone from 250 hour UND wonders to retired 89th MAW to guys with more inverted combat time than I had total time (from several different Air Forces) to guys that made their military careers in T-34c's, T-6's, T-38's and T1A's to guys that came out of crop dusters to guys that came out of 747's and MD11's. The former military guys usually start way behind on instrument procedures and generally don't complete initial any quicker than civilian pilots. The single seat and single engine guys have their own set of problems. The civilian guys jumping from a light twin to a swept wing jet have a big hurdle. Their fundamental skills are usually sound and they get over the hurdle just as quick as the former military guys get over theirs. Which is remarkable considering their very low time versus the military guys.

Six of one, half dozen of the other. Doesn't matter to me which one I draw.

I started flying when I was 16. I had all my civilian ratings including my MEI before I went in the military. There was no comparison. I did stuff I never imagined with an airplane in an airplane. The only part I breezed through was instruments. Even with my aviation knowledge I had to work my butt off in primary, not to mention memorize every EP and limitation. Some may disagree with that process but it get you in the books that is for sure.

A few years back I knew a Beechjet captain. He was able to wrangle a slot in the Guard and they sent him to school in the T-1A in OK. He said much the same thing I am saying. He thought he knew how to fly the Beechjet but the Air Force taught him differently. They taught him how to really fly the plane in various condition including form and at low altitudes. Now you may never need to hit a tanker or do a low level navigation course flying a Beechjet for some corporation, but you can't tell me that my buddy didn't get better training and can probably handle a Beechjet better than a guy from the Flight Safety type rating course.

 

[sinkrate]

I started flying when I was 16. I had all my civilian ratings including my MEI before I went in the military. There was no comparison. I did stuff I never imagined with an airplane in an airplane. The only part I breezed through was instruments. Even with my aviation knowledge I had to work my butt off in primary, not to mention memorize every EP and limitation. Some may disagree with that process but it get you in the books that is for sure.

A few years back I knew a Beechjet captain. He was able to wrangle a slot in the Guard and they sent him to school in the T-1A in OK. He said much the same thing I am saying. He thought he knew how to fly the Beechjet but the Air Force taught him differently. They taught him how to really fly the plane in various condition including form and at low altitudes. Now you may never need to hit a tanker or do a low level navigation course flying a Beechjet for some corporation, but you can't tell me that my buddy didn't get better training and can probably handle a Beechjet better than a guy from the Flight Safety type rating course.

The aircraft handling skills the military taught you for the specific mission were no doubt fun to learn and definitely take that skill set to a new level. A civilian pilot can do that too if he wants to pay for a bunch of aerobatic instruction. But you recognize that doesn't transfer to the 121 world. I've watched guys do combat assault approaches in air carrier aircraft - it did not enhance their careers. They weren't showing off - they just couldn't get it out of their head. Memorizing checklists is a necessity in a single pilot operation. In the CRM environment of two man cockpits it usually results in major mistakes that aren't career enhancing. Which is why most organizations - including the FAA - have moved away from it. Use all the time you will free up to review recent changes in the AIM and Instrument Procedures Handbook. It amazes me the number of 'professionals' that mangle basic pilot/controller radio phraseology - and then wonder why ATC squawks them for blown clearances.

 

[AirCobra]

The aircraft handling skills the military taught you for the specific mission were no doubt fun to learn and definitely take that skill set to a new level. A civilian pilot can do that too if he wants to pay for a bunch of aerobatic instruction. But you recognize that doesn't transfer to the 121 world. I've watched guys do combat assault approaches in air carrier aircraft - it did not enhance their careers. They weren't showing off - they just couldn't get it out of their head. Memorizing checklists is a necessity in a single pilot operation. In the CRM environment of two man cockpits it usually results in major mistakes that aren't career enhancing. Which is why most organizations - including the FAA - have moved away from it. Use all the time you will free up to review recent changes in the AIM and Instrument Procedures Handbook. It amazes me the number of 'professionals' that mangle basic pilot/controller radio phraseology - and then wonder why ATC squawks them for blown clearances.

Pilots should be able to handle their aircraft as the American Airbus, Air France, Asiana and Colgan accidents prove. Doesn't matter if its Part 121. Basic stick and rudder skills apply to any airplane no matter how large or automated. I think with the Asiana accident the FAA will soon start mandating more hand flying in training.

I think it would be impossible to memorize checklists for some aircraft but many pilots use the CRM concept an excuse not look at the checklist at all. I saw it all the time during recurrent training. No memory items so no idea what the checklist even says. And what about limitations. How do you know if you exceeded them if you don't know what they are? Hey maybe that is why Southwest guys taxis so fast.

 

[waveflyer]

You guys are talking about training. I'm talking about experience and background.

I'm not arguing that new Cessna pilots should be new hires at SWA - I'm talking about where a military pilot and a civilian pilot are after 7-10 years. The civilian who flew turboprops and RJs in 121 ops is much MUCH more qualified for the job than a fighter guy who briefed 4 hours for every hour, and accumulated 2000 hours. What they briefed is not applicable.
And real world- civilian pilots handfly the airliner way more and are much smoother and precise in doing it.

You tell me why

Again, it's been a real world observation- civilians are flat out better at re job we are asked to do. Ex Military captains have told me this from day one without me asking. The mil pilot's arrogance keeps them from getting any better.

Again, it is a MYTH that mil backgrounds yield better pilots today. Maybe 15 years ago. But civilians have addressed much of their previous deficiencies and have earned better than SWA is giving them now

 

[humveedriver]

This isn't about civilian vs military! Yet another FI that has turned into one. It's about moving on when you leave one organization and join another. I joined SWA from AT. Took about 3 months for me to stop saying you guys and start saying "we". Lots of great mil pilots everywhere. But a Kernal is something different and the SWA culture seems to encourage them more than other airlines. Examples;

On an overnight. Captain from another crew comes down to the bar (not going outside) with his leather jacket on. No epaulettes. But replaced SWA name tag with his Air Force fighter name plate. Kernal.

The Kernal who agrees with everything management says. Then proceeds to tell you that you don't understand, because you do not have any managerial experience. I get the fact that an O5 or O6 has alot of responsibility and experience. But when you become the 7,001st pilot on property. It doesn't matter anymore. You are a union worker bee now. You are not a senior vp. You can aspire to be one, some have done it. But you are a line pilot now. That, more than the "if it's not written, we can't do it" mentality, is what kills me.

 

[AirCobra]

You guys are talking about training. I'm talking about experience and background.

I'm not arguing that new Cessna pilots should be new hires at SWA - I'm talking about where a military pilot and a civilian pilot are after 7-10 years. The civilian who flew turboprops and RJs in 121 ops is much MUCH more qualified for the job than a fighter guy who briefed 4 hours for every hour, and accumulated 2000 hours. What they briefed is not applicable.
And real world- civilian pilots handfly the airliner way more and are much smoother and precise in doing it.

You tell me why

Again, it's been a real world observation- civilians are flat out better at re job we are asked to do. Ex Military captains have told me this from day one without me asking. The mil pilot's arrogance keeps them from getting any better.

Again, it is a MYTH that mil backgrounds yield better pilots today. Maybe 15 years ago. But civilians have addressed much of their previous deficiencies and have earned better than SWA is giving them now

Sad to see that you generalize military pilots as arrogant. I have found there are pretty much your standard cross section of humanity. Anecdotally though, I have found much the opposite. The most arrogant pilots I have ever known have been civilian, but that would not cause me to make sweeping statements about civilian pilots. I will also add the most arrogant airline pilots I met worked for Southwest, but again..... Maybe you just fly with a bunch a jerks because they work for Southwest and it has nothing to do with mil or civ.

A story from a few years back. We served an airport frequented by Southwest guys and they were usually in a hurry so they were pretty pushy when going through security, and generally rude. One day there was a backup on the X-Ray machine so a Southwest guy places his bag on the metal table and bolts through the metal detector. Seeing his bag still on the metal table he says exasperatedly "Hey could you move my bag!!". The guy in front of me picked up the bag and walked all the way to the furthest X Ray machine in the passenger security area and deposited in on anotther metal table. Security made the Southwest pilot exit and retrieve his bag from the table, telling him the bag has to remain in his possession, and since somebody else touched it he would have to go through security again. By the time he went through the guy in front of me had long disappeared.

 

[AirCobra]

On an overnight. Captain from another crew comes down to the bar (not going outside) with his leather jacket on. No epaulettes. But replaced SWA name tag with his Air Force fighter name plate. Kernal.

Seriously? I didn't want anyone to know my name when I was drinking. Are you sure it wasn't a nametag fake name like Hugh G. Rection or Dick Hertz. That I could see a military guy doing.