You guys are making me look like a genius. Thanx! B19

[illinipilot]

Please do not lump me with B-19 But I am asking a civil question. What if there are not enought pilots willing to take buy out, LOA, and more days off without pay, will there then be lays offs or not?

I am not the one to ask. And I wouldn't lump very many people in with the likes of B-19. I recently took him off of my ignore list and can't stand it so he's going back on.

What he doesn't seem to realize is that if Netjets is 200-500 pilots overstaffed, even if they all take paycuts, Netjets will still be 200-500 pilots overstaffed. Therefore taking concessionary measures do not save pilot jobs.

Another one of his arguments is that our wages are too high and not sustainable by the company. However Netjets has made money when the wages were this high so his argument has been proven wrong. It is simply a matter of too few sales in the current operating environment to sustain that amount of assets that Netjets (as well as the rest of the fractionals) must maintain. So like other assests that the fractionals must maintain i.e. scheduled maintaince, building costs, etc., pilot salaries are fixed and cannot be altered simply because income is depressed. The only way to change the company's expense is to reduce the amount of assests considered to be liabilities, and that is what the most recent agreement is attempting to accomplish. Obvisously the other way for the company to reduce the number of pilots on the payroll (liabilities) is to furlough, and that is where the protection of the union is important. Instead of being employeed at the whim of the company, low level members of the organization must collectively have a voice that empowers them to negotiate with the company in order to reach a satisfactory outcome such, I believe, as the one that has been presented to the Netjets pilot group.

IP

 

[amaineiac]

If the contract was everything you guys said it would be, not a single pilot would be facing any time off via a voluntary or involuntary layoff. The contact failed as jobs are being lost.

No the contract didn't fail. The contract has a section that deals with a reduction in force. It is pretty simple. Furlough from the bottom and you get 2 months pay/medical. This was negotiated with management as something beneficial to all. If nobody likes it, we revert to the contract.

This process will not be deemed a success unless the next quarterly statement shows that NJ has contributed profitably to the bottom line of B-H. If not, the contract has failed.

I thought you said the contract already failed?

the union hasn’t given up a nickel, only the pilots and the company have. Those that decide to stay are still getting paid a wage that does not match the revenue.


Here is the bottom line from the warm and fuzzy that all of you have and think I should have. If the union would have been willing to take concessions, even a token one to help absorb the cost that .

The pilots are the union. If the pilots VOLUNTEER to a reduced schedule, they are helping reduce spending and helping keep more pilots on the line.

Well, the economy has stuttered, and it's time to blame the industry leading contract for what's happened, not bad management.

The cost needs to be brought into line, and this ain't it folks... It's not enough of an effort by the union.

FLOPS, XO Jet, Flex, and Shares have all already furloughed. Many say that one or more of them may not be around when things shake out. I haven't heard anyone say that of NetJets. How is it that we've lasted the longest without downsizing and are currently the largest/strongest fractional out there if this contract is so damaging to the company?

You were born too late, you really would have given Joseph Goebbels a run for his money.

 

[fischman]

Brian,

Do yourself a favor. Don't take B19's bait. He wasn't there. You were. He doesn't understand the industry (after all, he works for a non union 121 carrier that does big time international trips ). We are. In essence, he is unqualified to comment intelligently on the matter. The fact of the matter is that NetJets has 0 pilots on furlough, and with the packages NetJets and NJASAP have put together, I don't believe there will be.

 

[brokeflyer]

yeah if you make too much sence then he'll leave and Ill have to find another "genius" to slap around and feed me grapes.

 

[HazMat]

The reality is NetJets doesnt have the business to support its workforce. It may never have it again. That is a bad thing for all of us who work for the industry. Some families will be forced (yes forced) to consider not having a job and living on much less. If they don't they may be forced to leave in the future. This whole thing sucks. The euphoria is really misplaced. I don't work at NetJets but all of us in the industry should be pulling for their success. I am just glad I am not being asked to make that very tough decision and I hope I never will be. I would much rather keep my job and my pay

 

[JungleJett]

The reality is NetJets doesnt have the business to support its workforce. It may never have it again. That is a bad thing for all of us who work for the industry. Some families will be forced (yes forced) to consider not having a job and living on much less. If they don't they may be forced to leave in the future. This whole thing sucks. The euphoria is really misplaced. I don't work at NetJets but all of us in the industry should be pulling for their success. I am just glad I am not being asked to make that very tough decision and I hope I never will be. I would much rather keep my job and my pay

Everyone would like to keep their job and pay. Unfortunately, the world in which we live does not always allow that. What I find unique yet refreshing is that an aviation organization and management came together and worked out an HISTORICAL agreement to ease some pain.

I hope and think it will all work out. We are the leading fractional and when the dust settles, that will not change. In fact, I think the field will narrow and our share of the market will widen even further.

 

[HazMat]

Junglejett I wouldn't root for others to fail to grow your share. Expecially when NetJets is in the middle of downsizing. No time to be bragging about being the leading fractional either. Lets show a little compassion for the families who will face serious financial hardships

 

[B19 Flyer]

Well stated...

Junglejett I wouldn't root for others to fail to grow your share. Expecially when NetJets is in the middle of downsizing. No time to be bragging about being the leading fractional either. Lets show a little compassion for the families who will face serious financial hardships

Hazmat, you are stating exactly what I've been trying to say in a different format. Most people would prefer to be working for less and have a job, than more with the possibility of seeing it end.

For months while these guys are touting their union and "Industry Leading Contract", I've been stating that the contract is too expensive and it was going to catch up to them, just like it did with all the legacy carriers.

These guys seem to think it's all about pilot salary, it's not. Yesterday on a different thread, GF stated that at NJ 6 pilots were needed per aircraft. That is on average 1.7 pilots more than most fractional models and what the NBAA recommends. In other words, the CBA forces NJ to carry more pilots than the industry thinks are needed. On top of that, the flying has been reduced requiring aircraft to in essence be parked. To answer somebody's question about that, it's to place an aircraft aside and not use it to reduce maintenance fees and defer heavy checks as long as possible. It's not to take the airplane off the certificate as one of the brainiacs stated yesterday.

This is the collective bargaining agreement that is causing this, and what is the most scary, is you have people like NJW out there stating that all fracs should be paid and use the NJ model.

It didn't work. To be successful, a CBA needs to be able to sustain through good times and bad. The NJ CBA didn't accomplish that.

Through all the years I've been posting, my concerns about union activity all go to support the financial being of the company and with that accomplished it extends to the pilots, the workers and the customers.

"Industry Leading Contracts" that tout high pay and conservative work rules instead of creating a balance simply don't work.

The guys are NJ are now going through what I've said would happen for years. I don't care what you want to call it, voluntary, involuntary, cutbacks, buy-outs, right sizing... it all means the same thing. Jobs lost, reduced or eliminated payroll and pilots not flying.

There are people out there that will be hurting because the company can't afford the CBA. The bottom line is, that there is turmoil going on amongst NJ pilots right now as they ponder taking packages that they know will change their lives, and mostly not for the good.

Had the contract been more to the middle of the road, the extent of this may not be happening. If the work rules didn't force 6 pilots per airplane, perhaps there would be less pilots on the payroll and less would need to be downsized.

All I know, is that what is happening right now is a massive negative impact on Netjets and the fractional industry. All those guys at Flight Options have seen their bubble burst as they had hopes and expectations for this.

Now, everybody is just trying to stay employed and the non-union fracs clearly have the least amount of turmoil. What is happening at NJ now is only the first step, and less than a week into it there is no concept whatsoever that this will even scratch the surface on what is needed to balance the company and return it to profitability (and stabliltiy for the customers, pilots and employees).

 

[HazMat]

B19 I dont get into the whole union vs non union thing. No matter what employees must be on the same page with mangement for a Company to be successful. I think that is what they tried to do at NetJets the issue is people are going to face dire financial situations as a result. Even if it is the best outcome it still stinks. I think everyone needs to face the fact that the workforce is being reduced out of necessity. Not good for the entire industry. I wish you all the best at NetJets and hope there is as little pain as possible.

 

[Hogprint]

Once again b9 is comparing Netjets to the Airlines. Two different models. Two different approaches to hard times.

He's had to eat crow on his little crusade more times than I can count and now he takes a quixotic charge at one of our team members who was privy to what went on.

Keep charging at windmills Don. Rocinante is your only friend and he'll give out soon enough.

BTW for all the doubting Thomases out there...
Did a static display for four prospective owners this week. It's not all doom and gloom.