You guys are making me look like a genius. Thanx! B19

[illinipilot]

Please do not lump me with B-19 But I am asking a civil question. What if there are not enought pilots willing to take buy out, LOA, and more days off without pay, will there then be lays offs or not?

I am not the one to ask. And I wouldn't lump very many people in with the likes of B-19. I recently took him off of my ignore list and can't stand it so he's going back on.

What he doesn't seem to realize is that if Netjets is 200-500 pilots overstaffed, even if they all take paycuts, Netjets will still be 200-500 pilots overstaffed. Therefore taking concessionary measures do not save pilot jobs.

Another one of his arguments is that our wages are too high and not sustainable by the company. However Netjets has made money when the wages were this high so his argument has been proven wrong. It is simply a matter of too few sales in the current operating environment to sustain that amount of assets that Netjets (as well as the rest of the fractionals) must maintain. So like other assests that the fractionals must maintain i.e. scheduled maintaince, building costs, etc., pilot salaries are fixed and cannot be altered simply because income is depressed. The only way to change the company's expense is to reduce the amount of assests considered to be liabilities, and that is what the most recent agreement is attempting to accomplish. Obvisously the other way for the company to reduce the number of pilots on the payroll (liabilities) is to furlough, and that is where the protection of the union is important. Instead of being employeed at the whim of the company, low level members of the organization must collectively have a voice that empowers them to negotiate with the company in order to reach a satisfactory outcome such, I believe, as the one that has been presented to the Netjets pilot group.

IP

 

[amaineiac]

If the contract was everything you guys said it would be, not a single pilot would be facing any time off via a voluntary or involuntary layoff. The contact failed as jobs are being lost.

No the contract didn't fail. The contract has a section that deals with a reduction in force. It is pretty simple. Furlough from the bottom and you get 2 months pay/medical. This was negotiated with management as something beneficial to all. If nobody likes it, we revert to the contract.

This process will not be deemed a success unless the next quarterly statement shows that NJ has contributed profitably to the bottom line of B-H. If not, the contract has failed.

I thought you said the contract already failed?

the union hasn’t given up a nickel, only the pilots and the company have. Those that decide to stay are still getting paid a wage that does not match the revenue.


Here is the bottom line from the warm and fuzzy that all of you have and think I should have. If the union would have been willing to take concessions, even a token one to help absorb the cost that .

The pilots are the union. If the pilots VOLUNTEER to a reduced schedule, they are helping reduce spending and helping keep more pilots on the line.

Well, the economy has stuttered, and it's time to blame the industry leading contract for what's happened, not bad management.

The cost needs to be brought into line, and this ain't it folks... It's not enough of an effort by the union.

FLOPS, XO Jet, Flex, and Shares have all already furloughed. Many say that one or more of them may not be around when things shake out. I haven't heard anyone say that of NetJets. How is it that we've lasted the longest without downsizing and are currently the largest/strongest fractional out there if this contract is so damaging to the company?

You were born too late, you really would have given Joseph Goebbels a run for his money.

 

[fischman]

Brian,

Do yourself a favor. Don't take B19's bait. He wasn't there. You were. He doesn't understand the industry (after all, he works for a non union 121 carrier that does big time international trips ). We are. In essence, he is unqualified to comment intelligently on the matter. The fact of the matter is that NetJets has 0 pilots on furlough, and with the packages NetJets and NJASAP have put together, I don't believe there will be.

 

[brokeflyer]

yeah if you make too much sence then he'll leave and Ill have to find another "genius" to slap around and feed me grapes.

 

[HazMat]

The reality is NetJets doesnt have the business to support its workforce. It may never have it again. That is a bad thing for all of us who work for the industry. Some families will be forced (yes forced) to consider not having a job and living on much less. If they don't they may be forced to leave in the future. This whole thing sucks. The euphoria is really misplaced. I don't work at NetJets but all of us in the industry should be pulling for their success. I am just glad I am not being asked to make that very tough decision and I hope I never will be. I would much rather keep my job and my pay

 

[JungleJett]

The reality is NetJets doesnt have the business to support its workforce. It may never have it again. That is a bad thing for all of us who work for the industry. Some families will be forced (yes forced) to consider not having a job and living on much less. If they don't they may be forced to leave in the future. This whole thing sucks. The euphoria is really misplaced. I don't work at NetJets but all of us in the industry should be pulling for their success. I am just glad I am not being asked to make that very tough decision and I hope I never will be. I would much rather keep my job and my pay

Everyone would like to keep their job and pay. Unfortunately, the world in which we live does not always allow that. What I find unique yet refreshing is that an aviation organization and management came together and worked out an HISTORICAL agreement to ease some pain.

I hope and think it will all work out. We are the leading fractional and when the dust settles, that will not change. In fact, I think the field will narrow and our share of the market will widen even further.

 

[HazMat]

Junglejett I wouldn't root for others to fail to grow your share. Expecially when NetJets is in the middle of downsizing. No time to be bragging about being the leading fractional either. Lets show a little compassion for the families who will face serious financial hardships

 

[B19 Flyer]

Well stated...

Junglejett I wouldn't root for others to fail to grow your share. Expecially when NetJets is in the middle of downsizing. No time to be bragging about being the leading fractional either. Lets show a little compassion for the families who will face serious financial hardships

Hazmat, you are stating exactly what I've been trying to say in a different format. Most people would prefer to be working for less and have a job, than more with the possibility of seeing it end.

For months while these guys are touting their union and "Industry Leading Contract", I've been stating that the contract is too expensive and it was going to catch up to them, just like it did with all the legacy carriers.

These guys seem to think it's all about pilot salary, it's not. Yesterday on a different thread, GF stated that at NJ 6 pilots were needed per aircraft. That is on average 1.7 pilots more than most fractional models and what the NBAA recommends. In other words, the CBA forces NJ to carry more pilots than the industry thinks are needed. On top of that, the flying has been reduced requiring aircraft to in essence be parked. To answer somebody's question about that, it's to place an aircraft aside and not use it to reduce maintenance fees and defer heavy checks as long as possible. It's not to take the airplane off the certificate as one of the brainiacs stated yesterday.

This is the collective bargaining agreement that is causing this, and what is the most scary, is you have people like NJW out there stating that all fracs should be paid and use the NJ model.

It didn't work. To be successful, a CBA needs to be able to sustain through good times and bad. The NJ CBA didn't accomplish that.

Through all the years I've been posting, my concerns about union activity all go to support the financial being of the company and with that accomplished it extends to the pilots, the workers and the customers.

"Industry Leading Contracts" that tout high pay and conservative work rules instead of creating a balance simply don't work.

The guys are NJ are now going through what I've said would happen for years. I don't care what you want to call it, voluntary, involuntary, cutbacks, buy-outs, right sizing... it all means the same thing. Jobs lost, reduced or eliminated payroll and pilots not flying.

There are people out there that will be hurting because the company can't afford the CBA. The bottom line is, that there is turmoil going on amongst NJ pilots right now as they ponder taking packages that they know will change their lives, and mostly not for the good.

Had the contract been more to the middle of the road, the extent of this may not be happening. If the work rules didn't force 6 pilots per airplane, perhaps there would be less pilots on the payroll and less would need to be downsized.

All I know, is that what is happening right now is a massive negative impact on Netjets and the fractional industry. All those guys at Flight Options have seen their bubble burst as they had hopes and expectations for this.

Now, everybody is just trying to stay employed and the non-union fracs clearly have the least amount of turmoil. What is happening at NJ now is only the first step, and less than a week into it there is no concept whatsoever that this will even scratch the surface on what is needed to balance the company and return it to profitability (and stabliltiy for the customers, pilots and employees).

 

[HazMat]

B19 I dont get into the whole union vs non union thing. No matter what employees must be on the same page with mangement for a Company to be successful. I think that is what they tried to do at NetJets the issue is people are going to face dire financial situations as a result. Even if it is the best outcome it still stinks. I think everyone needs to face the fact that the workforce is being reduced out of necessity. Not good for the entire industry. I wish you all the best at NetJets and hope there is as little pain as possible.

 

[Hogprint]

Once again b9 is comparing Netjets to the Airlines. Two different models. Two different approaches to hard times.

He's had to eat crow on his little crusade more times than I can count and now he takes a quixotic charge at one of our team members who was privy to what went on.

Keep charging at windmills Don. Rocinante is your only friend and he'll give out soon enough.

BTW for all the doubting Thomases out there...
Did a static display for four prospective owners this week. It's not all doom and gloom.

 

[HazMat]

Guys we have been hearing on this board that business was returning to usual for weeks. It gave us all optimism that the Industry was coming back. That was not the case just a bunch of crap. Why is it so hard to just call it like it is for you guys? Now we are going to start talking about statics. Lets just face the fact that NetJets business is way down. They are clearly looking for a large reduction in workforce. 100 pilots wouldn't help a company this large. The point is most of the fractional business is in the toilet and things are unknown now. Having a large workforce looking for jobs in a jobless market is not a good thing. Wake up

 

[B19 Flyer]

NBAA=National Business Aircraft Association

Once again b9 is comparing Netjets to the Airlines. Two different models. Two different approaches to hard times.

He's had to eat crow on his little crusade more times than I can count and now he takes a quixotic charge at one of our team members who was privy to what went on.

Keep charging at windmills Don. Rocinante is your only friend and he'll give out soon enough.

BTW for all the doubting Thomases out there...
Did a static display for four prospective owners this week. It's not all doom and gloom.

I'm talking business aviation standards, not 121.

My two years spent consulting senior management in the fractional industry while you were still in flight school confirms my real-life experience in the business aviation/fractional industry.

According to the National Business Association (NBAA) The traditional number of flight crews is a formula that works out to around 4.3 for most charter/fractional operations. The only reason that NJ would be above that is due to a CBA that inflates those numbers due to work rules.

The only thing you are right on is that it's not doom and gloom. This even will eventually cause a re-write of the CBA and bring it back a little closer to reality.

The point to be made is that all of you told me that this could never happen.

I told all of you that it could and most likely would.

Thankfully, the rest of the industry isn't unionized and they will be learning lessons about how miserable a CBA can make their lives when it goes bad.

 

[brokeflyer]

It's amazing what we've acomplished. Hopefully it will carry over to the other fracs.....

 

[B19 Flyer]

B19 I dont get into the whole union vs non union thing. No matter what employees must be on the same page with mangement for a Company to be successful. I think that is what they tried to do at NetJets the issue is people are going to face dire financial situations as a result. Even if it is the best outcome it still stinks. I think everyone needs to face the fact that the workforce is being reduced out of necessity. Not good for the entire industry. I wish you all the best at NetJets and hope there is as little pain as possible.

I lean on the unions because they make promises they can't keep and force changes onto people that are far reaching.

I've said all along that when the cuts happen at NJ they will be far greater and have a deeper impact than all the others combined. While this band-aid will slow the bleeding, it's only the first step. All the other non-union fracs have already circled the wagons.. NetJets can't due to the CBA.

This is not to say that the cuts there are over, but the rest of the industry is looking at NJ right now wondering just how bad is it going to be.

As a CBA forces the company to do business a certain way, a unionized NJ can't adjust as fast as all the other non-unionized fracs.

It will be interesting to see where this goes. I believe when it's all said and done, those non-unionized fracs will be standing tall with minimal turmoil and job loss while the turmoil is just beginning at NJ with much more to come.

Just because the NJ pilots make the most money, doesn't mean they work for the best operation that cares about them.

 

[B19 Flyer]

It's gonna cost ya......

It's amazing what we've acomplished. Hopefully it will carry over to the other fracs.....

Yes it is. You've shown that a unionized carrier can be even more painful and create more turmoil than a non-union one.

Hopefully these lessons will carry over to all the others.

 

[gret]

Does anybody know the number of employees that NJ is hoping will take advantage of the program?

 

[brokeflyer]

b19 here is what happened......we went and altered the CBA to allow for a pay cut to save jobs. This is COMPANY WIDE, and we changed the pay scales and that is preventing guys from losing their jobs.

So your question is answered, we went in and changed the CBA to save the company. Pretty cool huh?

 

[QOL_is_great:)]

B19 is a funny person

I have always enjoyed people like B19. Whether it's been in the military or the civilian sector. Only difference between B19 and the others is the fact B19 hides behind a fictional name.
I've enjoy the "I told you so" guys when the writing was always there and everyone knew it. Many people have or keep a positive outlook in hopes of keeping a positive attitude. While maintaining the positive attitude they prep for a negative outcome.
While B19 takes this opportunity to gloat (read smug malicious) in the misforutne of families and crewmembers at NJA; B19 should cease to hide behind a fictional name, be an adult and let the world know who he/she is. Let us know where he/she works to gain such insightfullness about this industry.
I know this will not happen since it would not allow this person the daily entertainment he/she seeks here. This individual is a true coward (read lacks courage) in all respects.
So, since B19 won't fall on the grenade and come clean; I have a suggestion for all. To steal a line from a classic; simply pay no attention to the person behind the curtain.
I am sure B19 will have a few who will support the posts and of course B19 will have something witty to for a response. I won't matter since you truly are a coward and won't step up.
As for any brothers and sisters throughout the fraction world; if you know this individual then let the hammer fall and post the indenty for all to see. I am truly curious as to where this crackpot works.
Time for a "Quad All" selection of rockets to fly and let the body hit the floor.

 

[fischman]

Guys we have been hearing on this board that business was returning to usual for weeks. It gave us all optimism that the Industry was coming back. That was not the case just a bunch of crap. Why is it so hard to just call it like it is for you guys? Now we are going to start talking about statics. Lets just face the fact that NetJets business is way down. They are clearly looking for a large reduction in workforce. 100 pilots wouldn't help a company this large. The point is most of the fractional business is in the toilet and things are unknown now. Having a large workforce looking for jobs in a jobless market is not a good thing. Wake up

I think you are being a bit pessimistic. So far the company has not come to NJASAP to talk about a reduction in workforce, or relief from the CBA. The only ones who are talking about it are the pilots and the union. NJASAP, in an effort to be proactive and help the company decided to use our ability as an engaged member of the NetJets family to help out in any way we can. We aren't stupid, and can see that our flying is down from months ago.

I have seen a few things that make me not worry about the future of NetJets. One is a significant reduction in the amount of ferry legs. The scheduling software implemented has been worth every penny. That is a good thing.

I did 2 demo flights in one day for prospective owners.

Everyone in the company is pulling on the same end of the rope. I see teamwork that hasn't happened before in the past, to amazing results. Dispatchers, Flight Coordinators, Chief Pilots, Pilots, and Owner Services are identifying potential issues and solving them before the Owners get to he airport.

The new customer service training is well thought out and well done. Owners should start to be seeing a new experience on NetJets flights.

To summarize, the sky isn't falling at NetJets. I still don't foresee a furlough being necessary. No one is losing their job as B19 says. All is well.

 

[BornAgainPagan]

Does anyone notice how this idiot B19 started with normal text, then switched to bold-type and now changes the color of bold type (red, blue and now brown) since he has been posting? This feeble attempt at getting people to pay attention to him shows his growing desperation for attention.

 

[HazMat]

Isn't voluntary leave an attempt at reducing workforce. I think if the company needed the entire workforce this wouldn't be occuring. You can slant it anyway you like but it is obvious to everyone that business is bad and the powers that be don't forsee it getting better for a while. This is ugly stuff

 

[brokeflyer]

yup the industry sucks....We beat that up pretty bad already.


Ill agree with you

 

[JungleJett]

Junglejett I wouldn't root for others to fail to grow your share. Expecially when NetJets is in the middle of downsizing. No time to be bragging about being the leading fractional either. Lets show a little compassion for the families who will face serious financial hardships

I am not rooting for anyone to fail..but I think the fact remains that will happen. We are in a better position to come out of this on the other side..leaner..but alive.

As for those who may suffer some hardship....that would be me.

 

[Hogprint]

Hazmat posted:

Now we are going to start talking about statics.

That is how we sell shares my friend. I've done close to two dozen in the ten years I've worked here. Most are convinced after the static, but some want a demo flight. I've only done a couple of those.

Point is sales are still there. Every Marquis salesman I've spoken with says they are doing well in the major markets. Read the tea leaves how ever you want.

Are times times tough. Sure. Will there be a tomorrow? I think so.

 

[steelersrule74]

I hope all the guys that got $hit-canned at flex, flops and others can at least take satisfaction that their turmoil is minimal.......

in reality the only one who has less turmoil during tough times at a non-union carrier is the SOB at the top who ends careers on a whim. The guy who doesn't have to be creative, doesn't have to make an effort to preserve assets. He just simply has to say, sorry folks your position is no longer needed. And when the cuts are too deep, market share has dwindled to nothing and the creditors are at the gates - the SOB takes the golden parachute (the good kind of furlough) and pops up somewhere else - keeping all the profits in good times and destroying lives yet again when the economy goes south. Wow, that IS easy.

 

[Hogprint]

Yes it is. You've shown that a unionized carrier can be even more painful and create more turmoil than a non-union one.

Hopefully these lessons will carry over to all the others.

Are you really this delusional or is your head in the sand?

We are doing everything we can to keep the "turmoil" our brothers at other fracs have suffered from happening to us. Our thoughts and prayers go out to them.

It's telling to see you root for "turmoil" on our side.

 

[B19 Flyer]

I hope all the guys that got $hit-canned at flex, flops and others can at least take satisfaction that their turmoil is minimal.......

in reality the only one who has less turmoil during tough times at a non-union carrier is the SOB at the top who ends careers on a whim. The guy who doesn't have to be creative, doesn't have to make an effort to preserve assets. He just simply has to say, sorry folks your position is no longer needed. And when the cuts are too deep, market share has dwindled to nothing and the creditors are at the gates - the SOB takes the golden parachute (the good kind of furlough) and pops up somewhere else - keeping all the profits in good times and destroying lives yet again when the economy goes south. Wow, that IS easy.

Yeah, that's how it works. Go take another drink of that union kool-aide.

If it was so easy, unions would be in the business of creating successful companies, instead of sucking every profitable cent out of companies that do, making them unprofitable and miserable to work at.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Are you really this delusional or is your head in the sand?

We are doing everything we can to keep the "turmoil" our brothers at other fracs have suffered from happening to us. Our thoughts and prayers go out to them.

It's telling to see you root for "turmoil" on our side.

The turmoil started with the "Industry Leading Contract". All you guys seem to think that it's only about how much a pilot is paid. It's a lot more than that.

Overstaffing is bad enough when the company hires more pilots than are needed. Add to that, a CBA that requires an additional 1.7 more pilots per airplane than any other fractional, and the union waste continues to rear it's very ugly head. It was only a matter of time.

I'm not wishing bad luck on anybody, but the blowhards on this board have been telling everybody just how wonderful life at Netjets is. They've been rubbing it in everybody's faces forever.

Every now and then during this downturn pilots have lost jobs at fracs. That is bad enough, but this Netjets issue is going to massively affect a very good company and the rest of the fractional industry in a negative fashion.

Union greed is showing it's head here, and it's just beginning. Anybody that thinks this little blip is going to correct all the turmoil is simply living on that 4 year supply of kool-aide provided by the union.

This is going to get worse, and the CBA is going to cause the ongoing issues.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Ha!

Does anyone notice how this idiot B19 started with normal text, then switched to bold-type and now changes the color of bold type (red, blue and now brown) since he has been posting? This feeble attempt at getting people to pay attention to him shows his growing desperation for attention.

You are really concerned about the color of the text? Here is the simplicity of how the text became blue, then brown. The avatar I originally used was blue and for some reason I matched the color on a few posts. Then, everybody started coming up with all kind of comments and conspiracies about it and I thought it was funny so I continued. The brown text of today matches the background of my image better than the blue.

All you guys think there is some kind of conspiracy and I love it.. I can't possibly be simply telling the truth, that being I'm in senior managment at a non-union part 121 air carrier that has experience with unions and how they destroy companies from the inside out.

Nope, all of you have me as a paid union buster. Keep the conspiracy alive I say!

In the meantime, I'm going to have my lunch now.

I'm going to eat my grilled peanut butter and banana sandwich while sitting in a bathtub that is located on a grassy knoll.

 

[brokeflyer]

The turmoil started with the "Industry Leading Contract". All you guys seem to think that it's only about how much a pilot is paid. It's a lot more than that.

Overstaffing is bad enough when the company hires more pilots than are needed. Add to that, a CBA that requires an additional 1.7 more pilots per airplane than any other fractional, and the union waste continues to rear it's very ugly head. It was only a matter of time.

I'm not wishing bad luck on anybody, but the blowhards on this board have been telling everybody just how wonderful life at Netjets is. They've been rubbing it in everybody's faces forever.

Every now and then during this downturn pilots have lost jobs at fracs. That is bad enough, but this Netjets issue is going to massively affect a very good company and the rest of the fractional industry in a negative fashion.

Union greed is showing it's head here, and it's just beginning. Anybody that thinks this little blip is going to correct all the turmoil is simply living on that 4 year supply of kool-aide provided by the union.

This is going to get worse, and the CBA is going to cause the ongoing issues.

you asked if we were going to open up the cba and provide some relief.....well, that is exactly what we did. Instead of not changing anything and letting the bottom third take it up the butt, we all are going to sacrafice to save our company. Union and non-union members are doing the same things. We are taking a reduction in salary and schedules.

So the answer is YES, we did it. Unbelievable huh?

So you can be happy for us now, we're all pulling together to provide a break on the company.