You guys are making me look like a genius. Thanx! B19

[B19 Flyer]

You told me that this couldn't happen..

Mr 19...

I have to call BS once again.

The only thing that restores full time flying is SALES and more SALES.... that produce flying... and more flying. If there is flying there will be pilot jobs ... if there is not flying ... there will not be pilot jobs.

Please show how flying for lower wages will produce more Flying?

Concessions Don't save jobs ... more Sales does.

Cost vs. Revenue.

Just like your budget at home. You don't spend more than you make.

Right now, there are a bunch of pilots trying to figure out how to make the cost vs revenue thing work at home.

I'll bet they understand.

Oh... and how many times have you told me GF that this couldn't happen.

 

[brokeflyer]

Susan Boyle is gonna unionize britain's got talent.

 

[gunfyter]

Cost vs. Revenue.

Just like your budget at home. You don't spend more than you make.

Right now, there are a bunch of pilots trying to figure out how to make the cost vs revenue thing work at home.

I'll bet they understand.

Oh... and how many times have you told me GF that this couldn't happen.

I never did.

I only say the CBA and pilot pay has NOTHING to do with the slowdown in sales and flying.... and nothing to do with any need for reduced manpower.

Now here is some cost analysis for you...

You claim 50 airplanes to be parked. This is a Fractional, not an airline ... we can not park owner's planes...

So that means that the planes to be parked would needs be returned and bought back by NJ.

50 planes times say a (conservative) average of $7 million each would be a cost of $350 Million in CASH back to the owners. Plus the management fees that won't be collected on 50 planes.

The Pilots would have to work for ZERO PAY to make up that loss. We would have to PAY to work here.

 

[gret]

Isn't "parked" another way of saying utilization. If flying is down 25% and the fleet is 800 hundred a/c, haven't you "parked" 200 a/c. While the company isn't carrying the whole load, they aren't receiving hourly fees which are important. Owner receivables have to be growing and the number that have left is unknown, but the company admits it has been dramatic.

I'm not taking sides, just trying to add a different perspective. A/C not flying isn't good for any of us and that is where we are at right now. It isn't mgmt, or the unions, fault. Business is just plain bad.

We all are playing a bad hand and have to hunker down and get thru it. Early 2010 should bring us better days in business aviation.

 

[pilotyip]

Not B-19

If B19 (represents management, abet not NJ management), and the pilot group both believe that they came out ahead with this agreement, doesn't that make it a win-win?

At least I think B19 is gloating because he/she thinks that management has the upper hand, and not because he/she desires NJ to go out of business simply because they're a unionized shop. Thereby eleminating thousands of jobs.

Please do not lump me with B-19 But I am asking a civil question. What if there are not enought pilots willing to take buy out, LOA, and more days off without pay, will there then be lays offs or not?

 

[gunfyter]

Isn't "parked" another way of saying utilization. If flying is down 25% and the fleet is 800 hundred a/c, haven't you "parked" 200 a/c. While the company isn't carrying the whole load, they aren't receiving hourly fees which are important. Owner receivables have to be growing and the number that have left is unknown, but the company admits it has been dramatic.

I'm not taking sides, just trying to add a different perspective. A/C not flying isn't good for any of us and that is where we are at right now. It isn't mgmt, or the unions, fault. Business is just plain bad.

We all are playing a bad hand and have to hunker down and get thru it. Early 2010 should bring us better days in business aviation.

Parked means put in long term storage... and taken out of service....

But I will let 19 explain what he means by parked.

 

[brokeflyer]

Please do not lump me with B-19 But I am asking a civil question. What if there are not enought pilots willing to take buy out, LOA, and more days off without pay, will there then be lays offs or not?

there is really no way not to have enough guys to do this.

The deal is just too good to pass up. Now ill be working LESS than 182 days per year.....that is if i dont just buy out and retire right now. Haven't decided yet.

 

[gunfyter]

Please do not lump me with B-19 ... will there then be lays offs or not?

You are not 19. You are a good man.

The answer to the question is we do not know. We do not know how much is enough. We know there are more pilot man-days than are needed ... so any reduction helps. Furloughs have not been brought up at all by the company.

One would assume the greater the manpower reduction by these means ... the fewer furloughs there would be in the event they become necessary.

As I tried to explain to 19 ... if his estimate of 50 planes to be parked were correct ... the losses to the company EXCEED the entire payroll of the Pilot Force because of buybacks of the airplanes....

Sort of like the mortgage crisis. Banks forclose of homes mortgaged for $150K and cant sell them for $50K... or like in Detroit ... homes sell for $1.

That would be the situation with returned airplanes. Every returned airplane is a loss many times the cost of the pilots that were employed to man that plane.

Money wise ... Buying back 10 airplanes at a loss of $7 million each or $70 million ... costs more than 700 pilot salaries and benefits. But it only takes 60 pilots to man that plane.

If 50 planes are bought back you would need to furlough 3500 pilots to make up the financial loss ... the entire pilot force in the US. But you would still have 400 planes to fly.

Now my prediction is THERE WILL BE NO FURLOUGHS. 150 pilots will early out... and 300 to 400 pilot jobs will be saved due to schedule reductions ....

 

[CRJFlyer]

Either way you look at it..parked, not parked..at some point the planes are/will be flown. Unless you want to ferry a plane across country to cover a trip that you could just as easily cover with one of you parked planes..

This is not an airline staffed solely based on expected block hours..(look at Comair's dilema coming this fall).. where you can take the block hours, divide by min line value, factor in some reserves, and then figure how many pilots you need.

Our business is based on the number of people you need to staff x amount of a/c, For x number of owners. Factor in vacation, leaves etc..

Come November, everyone wants to fly the same day but can't because we layed off x number of pilots. Now NJ used to be able to charter the overage, but now can't unless they want to recall the same percentage of pilots. And by the time we may see any layoffs November/busy season will be right around the corner so layoffs would cost the company more $$ than it may be worth. Then take into consideration that the economy may (and in my opinion WILL) be on the recovery.

If I paid millions for this service and then was told I can't make my trip when I want for Thanksgiving because of staffing or a/c issues I would certainly opt out of NJ or any frac.

Just my .02

 

[BeeDubya]

I will not respond to B19's posts directly. S/He was not a party to any discussions between NetJets' Management and the pilots' Union. Without commenting on his/her historical discussions not related to NJA/NJASAP, his/her impressions about our discussions are patently incorrect.

As much as s/he refers to Union members and Union representatives as cowards, s/he is the one hiding behind a screenname. I would give his/her opinions more weight if s/he were to muster the courage of his/her convictions.

In the meantime, suffice to say that as far as NetJets, NJASAP and our bilateral discussions are concerned, B19 is not only not in the room, s/he's not on the same planet!

Brian Ward

 

[illinipilot]

Please do not lump me with B-19 But I am asking a civil question. What if there are not enought pilots willing to take buy out, LOA, and more days off without pay, will there then be lays offs or not?

I am not the one to ask. And I wouldn't lump very many people in with the likes of B-19. I recently took him off of my ignore list and can't stand it so he's going back on.

What he doesn't seem to realize is that if Netjets is 200-500 pilots overstaffed, even if they all take paycuts, Netjets will still be 200-500 pilots overstaffed. Therefore taking concessionary measures do not save pilot jobs.

Another one of his arguments is that our wages are too high and not sustainable by the company. However Netjets has made money when the wages were this high so his argument has been proven wrong. It is simply a matter of too few sales in the current operating environment to sustain that amount of assets that Netjets (as well as the rest of the fractionals) must maintain. So like other assests that the fractionals must maintain i.e. scheduled maintaince, building costs, etc., pilot salaries are fixed and cannot be altered simply because income is depressed. The only way to change the company's expense is to reduce the amount of assests considered to be liabilities, and that is what the most recent agreement is attempting to accomplish. Obvisously the other way for the company to reduce the number of pilots on the payroll (liabilities) is to furlough, and that is where the protection of the union is important. Instead of being employeed at the whim of the company, low level members of the organization must collectively have a voice that empowers them to negotiate with the company in order to reach a satisfactory outcome such, I believe, as the one that has been presented to the Netjets pilot group.

IP

 

[amaineiac]

If the contract was everything you guys said it would be, not a single pilot would be facing any time off via a voluntary or involuntary layoff. The contact failed as jobs are being lost.

No the contract didn't fail. The contract has a section that deals with a reduction in force. It is pretty simple. Furlough from the bottom and you get 2 months pay/medical. This was negotiated with management as something beneficial to all. If nobody likes it, we revert to the contract.

This process will not be deemed a success unless the next quarterly statement shows that NJ has contributed profitably to the bottom line of B-H. If not, the contract has failed.

I thought you said the contract already failed?

the union hasn’t given up a nickel, only the pilots and the company have. Those that decide to stay are still getting paid a wage that does not match the revenue.


Here is the bottom line from the warm and fuzzy that all of you have and think I should have. If the union would have been willing to take concessions, even a token one to help absorb the cost that .

The pilots are the union. If the pilots VOLUNTEER to a reduced schedule, they are helping reduce spending and helping keep more pilots on the line.

Well, the economy has stuttered, and it's time to blame the industry leading contract for what's happened, not bad management.

The cost needs to be brought into line, and this ain't it folks... It's not enough of an effort by the union.

FLOPS, XO Jet, Flex, and Shares have all already furloughed. Many say that one or more of them may not be around when things shake out. I haven't heard anyone say that of NetJets. How is it that we've lasted the longest without downsizing and are currently the largest/strongest fractional out there if this contract is so damaging to the company?

You were born too late, you really would have given Joseph Goebbels a run for his money.

 

[fischman]

Brian,

Do yourself a favor. Don't take B19's bait. He wasn't there. You were. He doesn't understand the industry (after all, he works for a non union 121 carrier that does big time international trips ). We are. In essence, he is unqualified to comment intelligently on the matter. The fact of the matter is that NetJets has 0 pilots on furlough, and with the packages NetJets and NJASAP have put together, I don't believe there will be.

 

[brokeflyer]

yeah if you make too much sence then he'll leave and Ill have to find another "genius" to slap around and feed me grapes.

 

[HazMat]

The reality is NetJets doesnt have the business to support its workforce. It may never have it again. That is a bad thing for all of us who work for the industry. Some families will be forced (yes forced) to consider not having a job and living on much less. If they don't they may be forced to leave in the future. This whole thing sucks. The euphoria is really misplaced. I don't work at NetJets but all of us in the industry should be pulling for their success. I am just glad I am not being asked to make that very tough decision and I hope I never will be. I would much rather keep my job and my pay

 

[JungleJett]

The reality is NetJets doesnt have the business to support its workforce. It may never have it again. That is a bad thing for all of us who work for the industry. Some families will be forced (yes forced) to consider not having a job and living on much less. If they don't they may be forced to leave in the future. This whole thing sucks. The euphoria is really misplaced. I don't work at NetJets but all of us in the industry should be pulling for their success. I am just glad I am not being asked to make that very tough decision and I hope I never will be. I would much rather keep my job and my pay

Everyone would like to keep their job and pay. Unfortunately, the world in which we live does not always allow that. What I find unique yet refreshing is that an aviation organization and management came together and worked out an HISTORICAL agreement to ease some pain.

I hope and think it will all work out. We are the leading fractional and when the dust settles, that will not change. In fact, I think the field will narrow and our share of the market will widen even further.

 

[HazMat]

Junglejett I wouldn't root for others to fail to grow your share. Expecially when NetJets is in the middle of downsizing. No time to be bragging about being the leading fractional either. Lets show a little compassion for the families who will face serious financial hardships

 

[B19 Flyer]

Well stated...

Junglejett I wouldn't root for others to fail to grow your share. Expecially when NetJets is in the middle of downsizing. No time to be bragging about being the leading fractional either. Lets show a little compassion for the families who will face serious financial hardships

Hazmat, you are stating exactly what I've been trying to say in a different format. Most people would prefer to be working for less and have a job, than more with the possibility of seeing it end.

For months while these guys are touting their union and "Industry Leading Contract", I've been stating that the contract is too expensive and it was going to catch up to them, just like it did with all the legacy carriers.

These guys seem to think it's all about pilot salary, it's not. Yesterday on a different thread, GF stated that at NJ 6 pilots were needed per aircraft. That is on average 1.7 pilots more than most fractional models and what the NBAA recommends. In other words, the CBA forces NJ to carry more pilots than the industry thinks are needed. On top of that, the flying has been reduced requiring aircraft to in essence be parked. To answer somebody's question about that, it's to place an aircraft aside and not use it to reduce maintenance fees and defer heavy checks as long as possible. It's not to take the airplane off the certificate as one of the brainiacs stated yesterday.

This is the collective bargaining agreement that is causing this, and what is the most scary, is you have people like NJW out there stating that all fracs should be paid and use the NJ model.

It didn't work. To be successful, a CBA needs to be able to sustain through good times and bad. The NJ CBA didn't accomplish that.

Through all the years I've been posting, my concerns about union activity all go to support the financial being of the company and with that accomplished it extends to the pilots, the workers and the customers.

"Industry Leading Contracts" that tout high pay and conservative work rules instead of creating a balance simply don't work.

The guys are NJ are now going through what I've said would happen for years. I don't care what you want to call it, voluntary, involuntary, cutbacks, buy-outs, right sizing... it all means the same thing. Jobs lost, reduced or eliminated payroll and pilots not flying.

There are people out there that will be hurting because the company can't afford the CBA. The bottom line is, that there is turmoil going on amongst NJ pilots right now as they ponder taking packages that they know will change their lives, and mostly not for the good.

Had the contract been more to the middle of the road, the extent of this may not be happening. If the work rules didn't force 6 pilots per airplane, perhaps there would be less pilots on the payroll and less would need to be downsized.

All I know, is that what is happening right now is a massive negative impact on Netjets and the fractional industry. All those guys at Flight Options have seen their bubble burst as they had hopes and expectations for this.

Now, everybody is just trying to stay employed and the non-union fracs clearly have the least amount of turmoil. What is happening at NJ now is only the first step, and less than a week into it there is no concept whatsoever that this will even scratch the surface on what is needed to balance the company and return it to profitability (and stabliltiy for the customers, pilots and employees).

 

[HazMat]

B19 I dont get into the whole union vs non union thing. No matter what employees must be on the same page with mangement for a Company to be successful. I think that is what they tried to do at NetJets the issue is people are going to face dire financial situations as a result. Even if it is the best outcome it still stinks. I think everyone needs to face the fact that the workforce is being reduced out of necessity. Not good for the entire industry. I wish you all the best at NetJets and hope there is as little pain as possible.

 

[Hogprint]

Once again b9 is comparing Netjets to the Airlines. Two different models. Two different approaches to hard times.

He's had to eat crow on his little crusade more times than I can count and now he takes a quixotic charge at one of our team members who was privy to what went on.

Keep charging at windmills Don. Rocinante is your only friend and he'll give out soon enough.

BTW for all the doubting Thomases out there...
Did a static display for four prospective owners this week. It's not all doom and gloom.