You guys are making me look like a genius. Thanx! B19

[hyflyin]

Whats funny is he blames the contract for being to expensive, when it has nothing to do with the contract but an unprecedented economic downturn. Anything less and all businesses would be just fine.

Can't fix stupid of course, so he will continue to be a legend in his own mind. Unfortunately we will never be able to eradicate such vermin.

As a very Junior NJA family member and dealing with such low life's as B for many years, I am humbled by the generosity of NJA management and NJASAP for stepping up to the plate to take care of the company, its junior members and most of all my family. We will survive any kind of reduction just fine.

A sincere thank you to all! Carry on.

 

[HiSpeedFlyer]

Deleted (why bother, he thinks he won anyway....)

 

[B19 Flyer]

Let's talk a little history...

And of course, B19 wasn't in the room with NJ Management and NJASAP. I was and I continue to be. His musings are entertaining, but factually deficient.

Brian Ward

Let's talk a little history first.

Before the September attacks happened in 2001, the economy was already beginning to slide, airlines were most affected by the unprecedented high cost of labor and the “industry leading contracts”. All of us knew what was happening, the first thing all the legacy carriers did was freeze hiring, send management pilots back to the line and retire fleets that were not cost effective. The union refused to talk about concessions. It was clear in the beginning that the revenue did not support historically high cost of labor.

Then, after the attacks, everything became more extreme, furloughs began and the union still would not talk about concessions and air carriers had to continue to tolerate the historically high cost of labor in relationship to revenues.

When the nice solutions didn’t work and when push came to shove, the unions still refused to give concessions. That is when the carriers were forced to protect themselves with bankruptcy and in the case of American, near bankruptcy.

It looks to me that the same pattern is going to develop, and while I will admit, this is a warm fuzzy plan unlike any other, the union hasn’t given up a nickel, only the pilots and the company have. Those that decide to stay are still getting paid a wage that does not match the revenue.

Unless there is a miraculous turnaround in the economy, this warm fuzzy will only last for a short period of time.

Here is the bottom line from the warm and fuzzy that all of you have and think I should have. If the union would have been willing to take concessions, even a token one to help absorb the cost that NetJets is going to have to pay to pull this off, I would agree that this is a good package.

I don’t see that happening. On the website, it’s clear that NJASAP has not conceded any pay and that NJ will fund the entire package.

This is union business as normal, only taking a slightly different path this time. The company will save some money, but the root of the problem is the mismatch of historically high cost of labor vs. revenue.

You guys seem to think that the fractional model is different from any other company or business. It’s not. It’s still cost vs. revenue.

Until the union volunteers to reduce the cost of labor to bring it in line with revenue, this is union business as usual and will last only for a period of time.

If any of you think that this is the last solution, it's only the first step of many, and I will state here and now that the union will be forced to take concessions before it's over.

The sooner the union steps up to the plate and contributes to the cost savings, the sooner the company will be able to return to profitability and bring all of those pilots back to the FULL TIME wages they deserve.

 

[B19 Flyer]

It's still cost vs revenue

And of course, B19 wasn't in the room with NJ Management and NJASAP. I was and I continue to be. His musings are entertaining, but factually deficient.

Brian Ward

To you, they are entertaining, but I've been in that room too and know exactly what would have staved off problems had the union acted to the fullest extent possible.

Let's see if they are still entertaining in a year while the unprecedented high cost of your "industry leading contract" is still unbalanced and sucking the revenue to the extent where the company is unable to return to profitability and bring all the pilots back to full time wages.

All the pilots are touting this as being a great thing and the end all, but you and I know that it's nothing but a starting point. The union could have done more but chose not to because any kind of contract concession, even a token one would have been a resounding defeat for the union. The union would rather let it get ugly, then blame the continued failure on the company to save face. Yeah, we've both been there.. and history is going to repeat itself before it's over.

This is why I don't believe in unions, they can't do it right the first time and will never accept responsibility when it doesn't work.

 

[gunfyter]

Mr 19...

I have to call BS once again.

The only thing that restores full time flying is SALES and more SALES.... that produce flying... and more flying.

If there is flying there will be pilot jobs ... if there is not flying ... there will not be pilot jobs.

The reason for RIFs is when companies miscalculate their need for staffing ... like hiring hundreds of pilots in anticipation of skyrocketing FUTURE demand that doesn't materialize.

A mistake in planning by management that you would like to blame THE WORKERS for....

 

[B19 Flyer]

You told me that this couldn't happen..

Mr 19...

I have to call BS once again.

The only thing that restores full time flying is SALES and more SALES.... that produce flying... and more flying. If there is flying there will be pilot jobs ... if there is not flying ... there will not be pilot jobs.

Please show how flying for lower wages will produce more Flying?

Concessions Don't save jobs ... more Sales does.

Cost vs. Revenue.

Just like your budget at home. You don't spend more than you make.

Right now, there are a bunch of pilots trying to figure out how to make the cost vs revenue thing work at home.

I'll bet they understand.

Oh... and how many times have you told me GF that this couldn't happen.

 

[brokeflyer]

Susan Boyle is gonna unionize britain's got talent.

 

[gunfyter]

Cost vs. Revenue.

Just like your budget at home. You don't spend more than you make.

Right now, there are a bunch of pilots trying to figure out how to make the cost vs revenue thing work at home.

I'll bet they understand.

Oh... and how many times have you told me GF that this couldn't happen.

I never did.

I only say the CBA and pilot pay has NOTHING to do with the slowdown in sales and flying.... and nothing to do with any need for reduced manpower.

Now here is some cost analysis for you...

You claim 50 airplanes to be parked. This is a Fractional, not an airline ... we can not park owner's planes...

So that means that the planes to be parked would needs be returned and bought back by NJ.

50 planes times say a (conservative) average of $7 million each would be a cost of $350 Million in CASH back to the owners. Plus the management fees that won't be collected on 50 planes.

The Pilots would have to work for ZERO PAY to make up that loss. We would have to PAY to work here.

 

[gret]

Isn't "parked" another way of saying utilization. If flying is down 25% and the fleet is 800 hundred a/c, haven't you "parked" 200 a/c. While the company isn't carrying the whole load, they aren't receiving hourly fees which are important. Owner receivables have to be growing and the number that have left is unknown, but the company admits it has been dramatic.

I'm not taking sides, just trying to add a different perspective. A/C not flying isn't good for any of us and that is where we are at right now. It isn't mgmt, or the unions, fault. Business is just plain bad.

We all are playing a bad hand and have to hunker down and get thru it. Early 2010 should bring us better days in business aviation.

 

[pilotyip]

Not B-19

If B19 (represents management, abet not NJ management), and the pilot group both believe that they came out ahead with this agreement, doesn't that make it a win-win?

At least I think B19 is gloating because he/she thinks that management has the upper hand, and not because he/she desires NJ to go out of business simply because they're a unionized shop. Thereby eleminating thousands of jobs.

Please do not lump me with B-19 But I am asking a civil question. What if there are not enought pilots willing to take buy out, LOA, and more days off without pay, will there then be lays offs or not?

 

[gunfyter]

Isn't "parked" another way of saying utilization. If flying is down 25% and the fleet is 800 hundred a/c, haven't you "parked" 200 a/c. While the company isn't carrying the whole load, they aren't receiving hourly fees which are important. Owner receivables have to be growing and the number that have left is unknown, but the company admits it has been dramatic.

I'm not taking sides, just trying to add a different perspective. A/C not flying isn't good for any of us and that is where we are at right now. It isn't mgmt, or the unions, fault. Business is just plain bad.

We all are playing a bad hand and have to hunker down and get thru it. Early 2010 should bring us better days in business aviation.

Parked means put in long term storage... and taken out of service....

But I will let 19 explain what he means by parked.

 

[brokeflyer]

Please do not lump me with B-19 But I am asking a civil question. What if there are not enought pilots willing to take buy out, LOA, and more days off without pay, will there then be lays offs or not?

there is really no way not to have enough guys to do this.

The deal is just too good to pass up. Now ill be working LESS than 182 days per year.....that is if i dont just buy out and retire right now. Haven't decided yet.

 

[gunfyter]

Please do not lump me with B-19 ... will there then be lays offs or not?

You are not 19. You are a good man.

The answer to the question is we do not know. We do not know how much is enough. We know there are more pilot man-days than are needed ... so any reduction helps. Furloughs have not been brought up at all by the company.

One would assume the greater the manpower reduction by these means ... the fewer furloughs there would be in the event they become necessary.

As I tried to explain to 19 ... if his estimate of 50 planes to be parked were correct ... the losses to the company EXCEED the entire payroll of the Pilot Force because of buybacks of the airplanes....

Sort of like the mortgage crisis. Banks forclose of homes mortgaged for $150K and cant sell them for $50K... or like in Detroit ... homes sell for $1.

That would be the situation with returned airplanes. Every returned airplane is a loss many times the cost of the pilots that were employed to man that plane.

Money wise ... Buying back 10 airplanes at a loss of $7 million each or $70 million ... costs more than 700 pilot salaries and benefits. But it only takes 60 pilots to man that plane.

If 50 planes are bought back you would need to furlough 3500 pilots to make up the financial loss ... the entire pilot force in the US. But you would still have 400 planes to fly.

Now my prediction is THERE WILL BE NO FURLOUGHS. 150 pilots will early out... and 300 to 400 pilot jobs will be saved due to schedule reductions ....

 

[CRJFlyer]

Either way you look at it..parked, not parked..at some point the planes are/will be flown. Unless you want to ferry a plane across country to cover a trip that you could just as easily cover with one of you parked planes..

This is not an airline staffed solely based on expected block hours..(look at Comair's dilema coming this fall).. where you can take the block hours, divide by min line value, factor in some reserves, and then figure how many pilots you need.

Our business is based on the number of people you need to staff x amount of a/c, For x number of owners. Factor in vacation, leaves etc..

Come November, everyone wants to fly the same day but can't because we layed off x number of pilots. Now NJ used to be able to charter the overage, but now can't unless they want to recall the same percentage of pilots. And by the time we may see any layoffs November/busy season will be right around the corner so layoffs would cost the company more $$ than it may be worth. Then take into consideration that the economy may (and in my opinion WILL) be on the recovery.

If I paid millions for this service and then was told I can't make my trip when I want for Thanksgiving because of staffing or a/c issues I would certainly opt out of NJ or any frac.

Just my .02

 

[BeeDubya]

I will not respond to B19's posts directly. S/He was not a party to any discussions between NetJets' Management and the pilots' Union. Without commenting on his/her historical discussions not related to NJA/NJASAP, his/her impressions about our discussions are patently incorrect.

As much as s/he refers to Union members and Union representatives as cowards, s/he is the one hiding behind a screenname. I would give his/her opinions more weight if s/he were to muster the courage of his/her convictions.

In the meantime, suffice to say that as far as NetJets, NJASAP and our bilateral discussions are concerned, B19 is not only not in the room, s/he's not on the same planet!

Brian Ward