In reading your posts one would have to think that you are playing devils advocate and don't really believe what you are saying. Do you really think that we do not care about the financial health of our company? I'm sure I'm wasting my time with you but you are not making yourself look very good right now.
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You guys are making me look like a genius. Thanx! B19
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gutshotdraw
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illinipilot
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If B19 (represents management, abet not NJ management), and the pilot group both believe that they came out ahead with this agreement, doesn't that make it a win-win?
At least I think B19 is gloating because he/she thinks that management has the upper hand, and not because he/she desires NJ to go out of business simply because they're a unionized shop. Thereby eleminating thousands of jobs.
At least I think B19 is gloating because he/she thinks that management has the upper hand, and not because he/she desires NJ to go out of business simply because they're a unionized shop. Thereby eleminating thousands of jobs.
BeeDubya
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And of course, B19 wasn't in the room with NJ Management and NJASAP. I was and I continue to be. His musings are entertaining, but factually deficient.
Brian Ward
Whats funny is he blames the contract for being to expensive, when it has nothing to do with the contract but an unprecedented economic downturn. Anything less and all businesses would be just fine.
Can't fix stupid of course, so he will continue to be a legend in his own mind. Unfortunately we will never be able to eradicate such vermin.
As a very Junior NJA family member and dealing with such low life's as B for many years, I am humbled by the generosity of NJA management and NJASAP for stepping up to the plate to take care of the company, its junior members and most of all my family. We will survive any kind of reduction just fine.
A sincere thank you to all! Carry on.
Can't fix stupid of course, so he will continue to be a legend in his own mind. Unfortunately we will never be able to eradicate such vermin.
As a very Junior NJA family member and dealing with such low life's as B for many years, I am humbled by the generosity of NJA management and NJASAP for stepping up to the plate to take care of the company, its junior members and most of all my family. We will survive any kind of reduction just fine.
A sincere thank you to all! Carry on.
HiSpeedFlyer
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B19 Flyer
....
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Let's talk a little history...
Let's talk a little history first.
Before the September attacks happened in 2001, the economy was already beginning to slide, airlines were most affected by the unprecedented high cost of labor and the “industry leading contracts”. All of us knew what was happening, the first thing all the legacy carriers did was freeze hiring, send management pilots back to the line and retire fleets that were not cost effective. The union refused to talk about concessions. It was clear in the beginning that the revenue did not support historically high cost of labor.
Then, after the attacks, everything became more extreme, furloughs began and the union still would not talk about concessions and air carriers had to continue to tolerate the historically high cost of labor in relationship to revenues.
When the nice solutions didn’t work and when push came to shove, the unions still refused to give concessions. That is when the carriers were forced to protect themselves with bankruptcy and in the case of American, near bankruptcy.
It looks to me that the same pattern is going to develop, and while I will admit, this is a warm fuzzy plan unlike any other, the union hasn’t given up a nickel, only the pilots and the company have. Those that decide to stay are still getting paid a wage that does not match the revenue.
Unless there is a miraculous turnaround in the economy, this warm fuzzy will only last for a short period of time.
Here is the bottom line from the warm and fuzzy that all of you have and think I should have. If the union would have been willing to take concessions, even a token one to help absorb the cost that NetJets is going to have to pay to pull this off, I would agree that this is a good package.
I don’t see that happening. On the website, it’s clear that NJASAP has not conceded any pay and that NJ will fund the entire package.
This is union business as normal, only taking a slightly different path this time. The company will save some money, but the root of the problem is the mismatch of historically high cost of labor vs. revenue.
You guys seem to think that the fractional model is different from any other company or business. It’s not. It’s still cost vs. revenue.
Until the union volunteers to reduce the cost of labor to bring it in line with revenue, this is union business as usual and will last only for a period of time.
If any of you think that this is the last solution, it's only the first step of many, and I will state here and now that the union will be forced to take concessions before it's over.
The sooner the union steps up to the plate and contributes to the cost savings, the sooner the company will be able to return to profitability and bring all of those pilots back to the FULL TIME wages they deserve.
Let's talk a little history first.
Before the September attacks happened in 2001, the economy was already beginning to slide, airlines were most affected by the unprecedented high cost of labor and the “industry leading contracts”. All of us knew what was happening, the first thing all the legacy carriers did was freeze hiring, send management pilots back to the line and retire fleets that were not cost effective. The union refused to talk about concessions. It was clear in the beginning that the revenue did not support historically high cost of labor.
Then, after the attacks, everything became more extreme, furloughs began and the union still would not talk about concessions and air carriers had to continue to tolerate the historically high cost of labor in relationship to revenues.
When the nice solutions didn’t work and when push came to shove, the unions still refused to give concessions. That is when the carriers were forced to protect themselves with bankruptcy and in the case of American, near bankruptcy.
It looks to me that the same pattern is going to develop, and while I will admit, this is a warm fuzzy plan unlike any other, the union hasn’t given up a nickel, only the pilots and the company have. Those that decide to stay are still getting paid a wage that does not match the revenue.
Unless there is a miraculous turnaround in the economy, this warm fuzzy will only last for a short period of time.
Here is the bottom line from the warm and fuzzy that all of you have and think I should have. If the union would have been willing to take concessions, even a token one to help absorb the cost that NetJets is going to have to pay to pull this off, I would agree that this is a good package.
I don’t see that happening. On the website, it’s clear that NJASAP has not conceded any pay and that NJ will fund the entire package.
This is union business as normal, only taking a slightly different path this time. The company will save some money, but the root of the problem is the mismatch of historically high cost of labor vs. revenue.
You guys seem to think that the fractional model is different from any other company or business. It’s not. It’s still cost vs. revenue.
Until the union volunteers to reduce the cost of labor to bring it in line with revenue, this is union business as usual and will last only for a period of time.
If any of you think that this is the last solution, it's only the first step of many, and I will state here and now that the union will be forced to take concessions before it's over.
The sooner the union steps up to the plate and contributes to the cost savings, the sooner the company will be able to return to profitability and bring all of those pilots back to the FULL TIME wages they deserve.
B19 Flyer
....
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It's still cost vs revenue
To you, they are entertaining, but I've been in that room too and know exactly what would have staved off problems had the union acted to the fullest extent possible.
Let's see if they are still entertaining in a year while the unprecedented high cost of your "industry leading contract" is still unbalanced and sucking the revenue to the extent where the company is unable to return to profitability and bring all the pilots back to full time wages.
All the pilots are touting this as being a great thing and the end all, but you and I know that it's nothing but a starting point. The union could have done more but chose not to because any kind of contract concession, even a token one would have been a resounding defeat for the union. The union would rather let it get ugly, then blame the continued failure on the company to save face. Yeah, we've both been there.. and history is going to repeat itself before it's over.
This is why I don't believe in unions, they can't do it right the first time and will never accept responsibility when it doesn't work.
To you, they are entertaining, but I've been in that room too and know exactly what would have staved off problems had the union acted to the fullest extent possible.
Let's see if they are still entertaining in a year while the unprecedented high cost of your "industry leading contract" is still unbalanced and sucking the revenue to the extent where the company is unable to return to profitability and bring all the pilots back to full time wages.
All the pilots are touting this as being a great thing and the end all, but you and I know that it's nothing but a starting point. The union could have done more but chose not to because any kind of contract concession, even a token one would have been a resounding defeat for the union. The union would rather let it get ugly, then blame the continued failure on the company to save face. Yeah, we've both been there.. and history is going to repeat itself before it's over.
This is why I don't believe in unions, they can't do it right the first time and will never accept responsibility when it doesn't work.
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gunfyter
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Mr 19...
I have to call BS once again.
The only thing that restores full time flying is SALES and more SALES.... that produce flying... and more flying.
If there is flying there will be pilot jobs ... if there is not flying ... there will not be pilot jobs.
The reason for RIFs is when companies miscalculate their need for staffing ... like hiring hundreds of pilots in anticipation of skyrocketing FUTURE demand that doesn't materialize.
A mistake in planning by management that you would like to blame THE WORKERS for....
I have to call BS once again.
The only thing that restores full time flying is SALES and more SALES.... that produce flying... and more flying.
If there is flying there will be pilot jobs ... if there is not flying ... there will not be pilot jobs.
The reason for RIFs is when companies miscalculate their need for staffing ... like hiring hundreds of pilots in anticipation of skyrocketing FUTURE demand that doesn't materialize.
A mistake in planning by management that you would like to blame THE WORKERS for....
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