You guys are making me look like a genius. Thanx! B19

[B19 Flyer]

You told me that this couldn't happen..

Mr 19...

I have to call BS once again.

The only thing that restores full time flying is SALES and more SALES.... that produce flying... and more flying. If there is flying there will be pilot jobs ... if there is not flying ... there will not be pilot jobs.

Please show how flying for lower wages will produce more Flying?

Concessions Don't save jobs ... more Sales does.

Cost vs. Revenue.

Just like your budget at home. You don't spend more than you make.

Right now, there are a bunch of pilots trying to figure out how to make the cost vs revenue thing work at home.

I'll bet they understand.

Oh... and how many times have you told me GF that this couldn't happen.

 

[brokeflyer]

Susan Boyle is gonna unionize britain's got talent.

 

[gunfyter]

Cost vs. Revenue.

Just like your budget at home. You don't spend more than you make.

Right now, there are a bunch of pilots trying to figure out how to make the cost vs revenue thing work at home.

I'll bet they understand.

Oh... and how many times have you told me GF that this couldn't happen.

I never did.

I only say the CBA and pilot pay has NOTHING to do with the slowdown in sales and flying.... and nothing to do with any need for reduced manpower.

Now here is some cost analysis for you...

You claim 50 airplanes to be parked. This is a Fractional, not an airline ... we can not park owner's planes...

So that means that the planes to be parked would needs be returned and bought back by NJ.

50 planes times say a (conservative) average of $7 million each would be a cost of $350 Million in CASH back to the owners. Plus the management fees that won't be collected on 50 planes.

The Pilots would have to work for ZERO PAY to make up that loss. We would have to PAY to work here.

 

[gret]

Isn't "parked" another way of saying utilization. If flying is down 25% and the fleet is 800 hundred a/c, haven't you "parked" 200 a/c. While the company isn't carrying the whole load, they aren't receiving hourly fees which are important. Owner receivables have to be growing and the number that have left is unknown, but the company admits it has been dramatic.

I'm not taking sides, just trying to add a different perspective. A/C not flying isn't good for any of us and that is where we are at right now. It isn't mgmt, or the unions, fault. Business is just plain bad.

We all are playing a bad hand and have to hunker down and get thru it. Early 2010 should bring us better days in business aviation.

 

[pilotyip]

Not B-19

If B19 (represents management, abet not NJ management), and the pilot group both believe that they came out ahead with this agreement, doesn't that make it a win-win?

At least I think B19 is gloating because he/she thinks that management has the upper hand, and not because he/she desires NJ to go out of business simply because they're a unionized shop. Thereby eleminating thousands of jobs.

Please do not lump me with B-19 But I am asking a civil question. What if there are not enought pilots willing to take buy out, LOA, and more days off without pay, will there then be lays offs or not?

 

[gunfyter]

Isn't "parked" another way of saying utilization. If flying is down 25% and the fleet is 800 hundred a/c, haven't you "parked" 200 a/c. While the company isn't carrying the whole load, they aren't receiving hourly fees which are important. Owner receivables have to be growing and the number that have left is unknown, but the company admits it has been dramatic.

I'm not taking sides, just trying to add a different perspective. A/C not flying isn't good for any of us and that is where we are at right now. It isn't mgmt, or the unions, fault. Business is just plain bad.

We all are playing a bad hand and have to hunker down and get thru it. Early 2010 should bring us better days in business aviation.

Parked means put in long term storage... and taken out of service....

But I will let 19 explain what he means by parked.

 

[brokeflyer]

Please do not lump me with B-19 But I am asking a civil question. What if there are not enought pilots willing to take buy out, LOA, and more days off without pay, will there then be lays offs or not?

there is really no way not to have enough guys to do this.

The deal is just too good to pass up. Now ill be working LESS than 182 days per year.....that is if i dont just buy out and retire right now. Haven't decided yet.

 

[gunfyter]

Please do not lump me with B-19 ... will there then be lays offs or not?

You are not 19. You are a good man.

The answer to the question is we do not know. We do not know how much is enough. We know there are more pilot man-days than are needed ... so any reduction helps. Furloughs have not been brought up at all by the company.

One would assume the greater the manpower reduction by these means ... the fewer furloughs there would be in the event they become necessary.

As I tried to explain to 19 ... if his estimate of 50 planes to be parked were correct ... the losses to the company EXCEED the entire payroll of the Pilot Force because of buybacks of the airplanes....

Sort of like the mortgage crisis. Banks forclose of homes mortgaged for $150K and cant sell them for $50K... or like in Detroit ... homes sell for $1.

That would be the situation with returned airplanes. Every returned airplane is a loss many times the cost of the pilots that were employed to man that plane.

Money wise ... Buying back 10 airplanes at a loss of $7 million each or $70 million ... costs more than 700 pilot salaries and benefits. But it only takes 60 pilots to man that plane.

If 50 planes are bought back you would need to furlough 3500 pilots to make up the financial loss ... the entire pilot force in the US. But you would still have 400 planes to fly.

Now my prediction is THERE WILL BE NO FURLOUGHS. 150 pilots will early out... and 300 to 400 pilot jobs will be saved due to schedule reductions ....

 

[CRJFlyer]

Either way you look at it..parked, not parked..at some point the planes are/will be flown. Unless you want to ferry a plane across country to cover a trip that you could just as easily cover with one of you parked planes..

This is not an airline staffed solely based on expected block hours..(look at Comair's dilema coming this fall).. where you can take the block hours, divide by min line value, factor in some reserves, and then figure how many pilots you need.

Our business is based on the number of people you need to staff x amount of a/c, For x number of owners. Factor in vacation, leaves etc..

Come November, everyone wants to fly the same day but can't because we layed off x number of pilots. Now NJ used to be able to charter the overage, but now can't unless they want to recall the same percentage of pilots. And by the time we may see any layoffs November/busy season will be right around the corner so layoffs would cost the company more $$ than it may be worth. Then take into consideration that the economy may (and in my opinion WILL) be on the recovery.

If I paid millions for this service and then was told I can't make my trip when I want for Thanksgiving because of staffing or a/c issues I would certainly opt out of NJ or any frac.

Just my .02

 

[BeeDubya]

I will not respond to B19's posts directly. S/He was not a party to any discussions between NetJets' Management and the pilots' Union. Without commenting on his/her historical discussions not related to NJA/NJASAP, his/her impressions about our discussions are patently incorrect.

As much as s/he refers to Union members and Union representatives as cowards, s/he is the one hiding behind a screenname. I would give his/her opinions more weight if s/he were to muster the courage of his/her convictions.

In the meantime, suffice to say that as far as NetJets, NJASAP and our bilateral discussions are concerned, B19 is not only not in the room, s/he's not on the same planet!

Brian Ward