XJT pay concessions pass easily

[WayBack]

Fools. You will take more pay cuts next year.
I laugh at you guys who have to come on here to try and defend yourself, surgar coating it, to make yourself feel better for lowering the bar. Pathetic.

 

[SkyBoy1981]

Fools. You will take more pay cuts next year.
I laugh at you guys who have to come on here to try and defend yourself, surgar coating it, to make yourself feel better for lowering the bar. Pathetic.

Yet another enlightening educated response complete with name calling and the overused "lowering the bar" phrase. Man, you guys are on a roll.

 

[Regul8r]

Yet another enlightening educated response complete with name calling and the overused "lowering the bar" phrase. Man, you guys are on a roll.

Try to keep a dignified look on your face when you're pushing for Age 75 in a few years. Your meager wages won't allow for anything resembling a retirement.

 

[Nevets]

Try to keep a dignified look on your face when you're pushing for Age 75 in a few years. Your meager wages won't allow for anything resembling a retirement.

That's funny considering XJT actually has a defined contribution plan on top of their 401k matching.

 

[Propsync]

A bit out of the loop here. Quick question. Why concessions if branded was done and a certain # of aircraft are locked up with CO? I don't get why Xjet is in any sort of trouble.

 

[SkyBoy1981]

A bit out of the loop here. Quick question. Why concessions if branded was done and a certain # of aircraft are locked up with CO? I don't get why Xjet is in any sort of trouble.

The last resort CPA that was signed with CO is not profitable without labor concessions. Even after the concessions the company will supposedly break even with the CPA and hopefully make a slight profit from the charter operation.

 

[Propsync]

The last resort CPA that was signed with CO is not profitable without labor concessions. Even after the concessions the company will supposedly break even with the CPA and hopefully make a slight profit from the charter operation.

Thanks for the info. Guess the pilots were willing to let management not manage to find other avenues to be profitable. This is what you call enabling. Now when management is unwilling to manage, the pilots will bail them out. Once the cycle has started, it will not stop. This is only the beginning of the slide downhill at Xjet. Too bad and good luck.

 

[SkyBoy1981]

Guess the pilots were willing to let management not manage to find other avenues to be profitable.

Well, other avenues were ventured and were not successful... both in the form of bidding for CPA's that ended up being awarded to the usual bottom feeders and trying our own branded operation. Part of the reason we ended up in this mess to begin with is due to competition from a carrier with lower operating costs (CHQ). Our costs are higher than that of our competitors, and part of that is due to the fact that we have a better pilot contract. It is what it is...

 

[Propsync]

Part of the reason we ended up in this mess to begin with is due to competition from a carrier with lower operating costs (CHQ). Our costs are higher than that of our competitors, and part of that is due to the fact that we have a better pilot contract. It is what it is...

I have a hard time believing pilot contracts solely dictate contracts. I don't know how CHQ operates, but if they serve Delta, AA, UsAir, CO, and now Midwest at a certain city, don't all employees work all of those flights (outstation scenario)? It would seem they could do it cheaper due to one station manager and employees to cover up to four airlines worth of flights. Much more efficient.

 

[WSurf]

I am surprised by this. Conex has more leverage then any other regional around when dealing with their mainline partner.

With the concessions are there any Profit Sharing, or kick backs now that I am sure your gonna make a profit with oil tumbling down.

 

[cybourg10]

Yes there are snapback provisions and profit sharing for us depending on how much the company makes. Oil tumbling down has nothing to do with how much XJT makes unless CAL gives us more block hours, we do not pay for fuel.

Prop sync: You are correct in that pilot contracts do not SOLELY dictate CPAs but labor is the main cost at a vendor "airline." Cheaper labor makes a huge difference in the regional world. I have heard (although I am not sure if I agree) that XJT is now cheaper per block hour than MESA on the 50 seat rate, if that is true that makes XJT a very effecient company to have the highest paid captains and one of the lowest CPA rates.

 

[dojetdriver]

I have a hard time believing pilot contracts solely dictate contracts. I don't know how CHQ operates, but if they serve Delta, AA, UsAir, CO, and now Midwest at a certain city, don't all employees work all of those flights (outstation scenario)? It would seem they could do it cheaper due to one station manager and employees to cover up to four airlines worth of flights. Much more efficient.

Depends on the station. Some employees may be mainline, some may be RAH employees, and some may be contracted out to somebody else.

You are correct to a point that it's just not pilot contracts that are the sole cause. But XJT DID have a pretty high operating cost, due in part to labor. But also the provisions/language of the ORIGINAL CPA of somewhere around cost PLUS 10%, it was later changed.

If I remember correctly, most other regionals were operating somewhere in the 5ish % profit margin area.

I am surprised by this. Conex has more leverage then any other regional around when dealing with their mainline partner.

Not really. The last CPA, although there were protections, CAL pretty much got to call the shots. XJT was heavily restricted as to what they could do with the aircraft. One being the MFN clause, which was a big show stopper as far as sucuring additional flying when there may have been some to be had. Hence the pro rate that escalated with DAL and made up the bulk of that operation.

With the concessions are there any Profit Sharing, or kick backs now that I am sure your gonna make a profit with oil tumbling down.

As was mentioned, oil price has ZERO impact on XJT. CAL is paying for the fuel. All that oil dropping does is reduce CAL's overall operating cost, not XJT's. I think it's doubful that CAL managment would come to XJT's management and agree to up the rate they pay because they are now paying less for fuel.

 

[Bako Cap]

With a 10% profit margin and exclusive RJ flying guaranteed until 2007 this was the first real test that the XJT pilots had to face.

You guys failed just like everyone else. Welcome to the club.

I cannot believe that with EVERYONE else before you guys PROVING that pilot pay DOES NOT matter and will not save the company. You guys still voted for cuts.

 

[dojetdriver]

With a 10% profit margin and exclusive RJ flying guaranteed until 2007 this was the first real test that the XJT pilots had to face.

True, for the group as a whole. There are many guys here from other airlines that have been through this before.

You guys failed just like everyone else. Welcome to the club.

Thanks, but like I said, some of us are ALREADY members. And for many of us, not because we wanted to join, or have multiple memberships

I cannot believe that with EVERYONE else before you guys PROVING that pilot pay DOES NOT matter and will not save the company. You guys still voted for cuts.

As a tid bit of information, cuts came from labor, ALL labor. Non union groups took cuts, management took cuts, unionized groups WILL be taking cuts. It's not a case of "the pilots saving the airline".

 

[Nevets]

Not really. The last CPA, although there were protections, CAL pretty much got to call the shots. XJT was heavily restricted as to what they could do with the aircraft. One being the MFN clause, which was a big show stopper as far as sucuring additional flying when there may have been some to be had. Hence the pro rate that escalated with DAL and made up the bulk of that operation.

Not to mention the hub restrictions, the change of control restrictions, the requirement to renegotiate rates every year, and the biggest ones of them all were CALs ability to reduce 25% of the aircraft every two years, and CALs ability to cancel the whole CPA without cause.

 

[Nevets]

With a 10% profit margin and exclusive RJ flying guaranteed until 2007 this was the first real test that the XJT pilots had to face.

You guys failed just like everyone else. Welcome to the club.

I cannot believe that with EVERYONE else before you guys PROVING that pilot pay DOES NOT matter and will not save the company. You guys still voted for cuts.

The biggest reason why XJT found themselves in this position is because CAL told XJT, "absent our entering into a new CPA with savings on the magnitude that we have negotiated with Skywest..." Anyways, I'm sure you know about CALs threat of canceling the whole CPA otherwise.

Pilot pay seemed to matter on this one, at least to Skywest it did.

 

[flylike44]

6 pages of excuses.

 

[SkyBoy1981]

6 pages of excuses.

And 2 posts from you with absolutely nothing useful in them..

 

[flylike44]

And 2 posts from you with absolutely nothing useful in them..

must've hit a nerve.

 

[SkyBoy1981]

must've hit a nerve.

Haha.. I'd like you to hit a nerve. I'm always up for a challenge. That would require that you actually make a constructive response first though.

Come on, I dare you. None of this one line insult bullsh*t. I'm not so sure that you're capable.

 

[JoeMerchant]

The biggest reason why XJT found themselves in this position is because CAL told XJT, "absent our entering into a new CPA with savings on the magnitude that we have negotiated with Skywest..." Anyways, I'm sure you know about CALs threat of canceling the whole CPA otherwise.

Pilot pay seemed to matter on this one, at least to Skywest it did.

Funny how you ALPA chest thumpers make exceptions for your own situations....

Becasue of CPA's and portfolio whipsawing....Pilot pay matters on every property....

ALPA failed and now pilot pay is a factor as it is used to "bid" for flying....

Pilots want everyone else to fall on their swords and take one for the team.....while they do what is best for themselves on their own property.....

 

[flylike44]

Haha.. I'd like you to hit a nerve. I'm always up for a challenge. That would require that you actually make a constructive response first though.

Come on, I dare you. None of this one line insult bullsh*t. I'm not so sure that you're capable.

i keep my responses short and pithy for your benefit. i'm not so sure you're capable of understanding much else. nothing i've posted has been insulting. xjet folks have been screaming at the top of their collective lungs about every other pilot group "lowering the bar" for what seems like centuries. many expected other groups to "stfd" rather than live to fight another day. now your turn has come and you dropped the ball. you took concessions plain and simple. now you're in spin mode. give it a rest already. an alarmingly large portion of your venerable group didn't even vote! pathetic. no excuse.

 

[Nevets]

Funny how you ALPA chest thumpers make exceptions for your own situations....

Becasue of CPA's and portfolio whipsawing....Pilot pay matters on every property....

ALPA failed and now pilot pay is a factor as it is used to "bid" for flying....

Pilots want everyone else to fall on their swords and take one for the team.....while they do what is best for themselves on their own property.....

I was just pointing out a fact of the situation. As you agreed, pilot pay does matter and that was exactly my point. This finally became very apparent to many at XJT after how this whole thing went down.

Voting the LOA down would not have been the equivalent to falling on our sword because that or anybody else not doing what is best for themselves is not going to solve the problem. The problem is much bigger than any one issue at any one particular property.

I'm not saying it wasn't ALPA's fault as a whole. As you know, many mistakes were made in the past purely on the basis of regional versus major mentality. I was just pointing out the fact on this particular issue. But I agree that this was just the symptom of a much larger disease that ALPA is trying to cure itself from.

 

[Nevets]

nothing i've posted has been insulting. xjet folks have been screaming at the top of their collective lungs about every other pilot group "lowering the bar" for what seems like centuries. many expected other groups to "stfd" rather than live to fight another day. now your turn has come and you dropped the ball. you took concessions plain and simple. now you're in spin mode. give it a rest already. an alarmingly large portion of your venerable group didn't even vote! pathetic. no excuse.

No spin here, the XJT contract is still the industry leading contract despite this LOA passing.

But yeah, the turnout was pathetic to say the least, no excuse.

 

[SkyBoy1981]

double post.

 

[SkyBoy1981]

i keep my responses short and pithy for your benefit. i'm not so sure you're capable of understanding much else. nothing i've posted has been insulting. xjet folks have been screaming at the top of their collective lungs about every other pilot group "lowering the bar" for what seems like centuries. many expected other groups to "stfd" rather than live to fight another day. now your turn has come and you dropped the ball. you took concessions plain and simple. now you're in spin mode. give it a rest already. an alarmingly large portion of your venerable group didn't even vote! pathetic. no excuse.

I don't think that taking the comments of a few obnoxious pilots from flightinfo and saying that they represent the attitude of our entire pilot group is fair. You're welcome to search through my posting history and you will not see such comments coming from me concerning other pilot groups. Now you're just as big of an idiot as they were for oversimplifying a complex situation just for the sake of pounding your own chest. Congratulations. As for being in "spin mode", I haven't spun anything.. I welcome you to challenge any of the comments that I have made in this thread if you're capable of responding with logic rather than emotion.

As for those who didn't vote, I agree with you on that. It is what it is.

 

[superrav]

damn guys, 6 pages.

 

[yahooair]

wait a minute, last year this time, express jet pilots we're gods because they had a great contract and hatted the idea of getting bought by SKYW for 3.00 a share.
now look at their situation.
you guys are now bashing them because they caved??
leave them alone.
**don't forget the SKYW pilots are the enemy**
where did we loose focus and stop bashing SKYW pilots.
What about ASA pilots out there...why is there no more bashing SKYW pilots lately??? come on.
You RJ pilots are a bunch of babies.
Just remember, when this all tanks, it was all SKYW pilots and not mngt. fault.
screw all SKYW pilots and the whole seniority list.
Please blackball all of them.
expressjet problems all began when SKYW and the pilots came into the picture. (mostly the pilots)
they really go out of their way to bring down the industry.
its in their contract to ruin the lives of all other RJ carriers out there.
its not mesa pilots fault, somewhere in the mix, skyw pilots did something to make mesas rules the way they are.

 

[Nevets]

wait a minute, last year this time, express jet pilots we're gods because they had a great contract and hatted the idea of getting bought by SKYW for 3.00 a share.
now look at their situation.
you guys are now bashing them because they caved??
leave them alone.
**don't forget the SKYW pilots are the enemy**
where did we loose focus and stop bashing SKYW pilots.
What about ASA pilots out there...why is there no more bashing SKYW pilots lately??? come on.
You RJ pilots are a bunch of babies.
Just remember, when this all tanks, it was all SKYW pilots and not mngt. fault.
screw all SKYW pilots and the whole seniority list.
Please blackball all of them.
expressjet problems all began when SKYW and the pilots came into the picture. (mostly the pilots)
they really go out of their way to bring down the industry.
its in their contract to ruin the lives of all other RJ carriers out there.
its not mesa pilots fault, somewhere in the mix, skyw pilots did something to make mesas rules the way they are.

I don't think many XJT pilots cared what the purchase price was. I don't think SKW pilots are the enemy. They are just passive in this whole industry. Some may say that that is being the enemy or at least giving the enemy aid and comfort. But if all this does tank, as you say, SKW pilots will have had no voice in the preceeding attempts in salvaging it like the other fee for departure cariers are currently trying to do throught the FFD Task Force. XJT pilots' problem didn't begin with SKW management's attempt to acquire their company but it sure exacerbated it. It may have helped the situation if the SKW pilots could speak with one voice and collaborate with the XJT pilots through their respective MECs just as ASA's MEC did.

Oh, and the SKW pilots don't have it their contract to ruin the lives of all other RJ cariers because they don't have a contract to begin with.

 

[flylike44]

No spin here, the XJT contract is still the industry leading contract despite this LOA passing.

But yeah, the turnout was pathetic to say the least, no excuse.

maybe so, but by this vote your group has redefined what industry leading is. you've done a disservice to other groups still in negotiations looking to reach the point at which you USED to be. when your management comes to you asking for more, and they will, will you vote to lower the bar again? i guess it doesn't matter since you're still the "industry leader" and all.